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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
Now, since I've never used _anything_ except onboard sound, I am completely lost on the topic. I just want sound quality to be overall good - gaming, music and movies. I'm guessing I don't need a soundcard that has all the fancy studio recording features or whatever but it should be enough to make use of my new headset. And so, TL, I turn to you and your wisdom. Do you have any tips on a soundcard that would fit what I described?   | ||
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Pakje
Belgium288 Posts
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semantics
10040 Posts
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
i have an asus xonar essence ST, and it works wonderfully. i use it with the HD650's, and its pretty much the only soundcard that i have tried (out of the creative x-fi fatality, ht omega claro+, and the auzentech x-fi). The sound for what ever it be, is amazing. Music and movies really shine on this card. If its not within your budget, then i would look toward the other soundcards asus has to offer. they are really really well designed from an audiophile point of view, and deliver exceptional quality for the price. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132006 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132014 as for motherboard sound, i find it quite bland. its put there to be a jack of all trades type thing. almost like having onboard video, but with no performance loss represented by fps. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
You might want to read the forums here: http://www.head-fi.org | ||
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AyeH
United States534 Posts
sound systems make a bigger difference. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
While not having as good sound quality as some headphones, it's pretty much the best headset I've found. My motherboard is a Gigabyte GA-P55-UD3; I have no idea wether or not the onboard sound is good enough for this headset. I should also mention that the headset is all I'll be using for sound, I have no speaker setup whatsoever. EDIT: This is what I found out the the Gigabyte site regarding onboard sound for my mobo: Audio Realtek ALC888 codec High Definition Audio 2/4/5.1/7.1-channel Support for S/PDIF In/Out Support for CD In However, I am pretty clueless as to what this actually means quality-wise, and if I'd get any real difference from getting a soundcard. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
High end sound cards are more for studio work, usually able to take in more then one signal at a time etc with slighly better amp and SNR. The belief in high end sound cards come from when cpu's where 1 core and on board sound was shit. So if you wanted 5.1 surround or if you just wanted to play a game without loosing fps you got an daughter board sound. Now of days cpus are robust and sound card chips are cheap and effective. | ||
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R1CH
Netherlands10342 Posts
For gaming and movies etc you probably won't notice the interference since the other sounds will drown it out, but if you really want the best quality you need a dedicated sound card. I'd recommend anything with a C-Media chip. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
What headphones do you have RICH? @gillon The real question is are you satisfied with your on-board sound? Do you hear the EMI interference? For Example: I think the onboard sound on my Desktop is terrible. But I'm happy with the sound on my laptop. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
But gillion has a decent chip on a great motherboard. | ||
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Wangsta
United States776 Posts
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R1CH
Netherlands10342 Posts
On June 21 2010 09:01 T.O.P. wrote: If you buy a internal PCI Soundcard, you'll get EMI interference as well as noise due to uneven power from your power supply. What headphones do you have RICH? I have HD 595s, this happens on at least two different PCs with different motherboards. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On June 21 2010 10:02 R1CH wrote: I have HD 595s, this happens on at least two different PCs with different motherboards. You don't even need to have high end headphones to hear the interference. I have had it on ALC 661, Connexant laptop audio and the old AC'97 integrated audio. Pretty much every integrated audio chip I've tried has this annoying screeching (im assuming that's interference) that my sound card does not. I could hear it with HD 280's as well as Creative EP-630 plugs, so it's not a headphone problem. People say it's fine, but I'm never gonna use integrated again, unless I'm forced to on a laptop. | ||
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Gandalf
Pakistan1905 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On June 21 2010 10:37 Gandalf wrote: I've always used an integrated sound card, and I felt a pretty big difference in sound quality going from cheap headphones to a pair of HD555s. Maybe getting a dedicated sound card would still increase quality, but I'm not sure if its really necessary. You can't say until you've tried it. Integrated audio is garbage. I admit it's much better than 5 years ago, but it's still bad compared to even a dedicated 50$ sound card. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
On June 21 2010 08:41 R1CH wrote: Have you guys replying ever owned any decent headphones before? Onboard sound sucks, there's a shitload of EMI interference introduced due to the fact it's integrated into the board. You may not notice this with your $10 headphones but any decent pair of cans will make it very obvious. I can even hear the interference caused by moving my mouse with my onboard sound. For gaming and movies etc you probably won't notice the interference since the other sounds will drown it out, but if you really want the best quality you need a dedicated sound card. I'd recommend anything with a C-Media chip. Yeah, onboard sound almost always does this. Depending on how you have your levels set you can avoid it somewhat but not entirely. i.e. keep your systems master volume low and increase the volume in the application so that the audio signal is stronger in comparison to the EMI. If you are an audiophile or produce any kind of audio then you are going to want a sound card, but otherwise this issue is only slightly noticeable with a proper setup and really shouldn't be a problem for your average consumer. Personally I have a very expensive DJ mixer that can act as my sound card, but usually while gaming and whatnot I don't bother turning it on because the onboard sound is good enough. | ||
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AyeH
United States534 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
I don't know what particular sound card to recommend you but I agree you should get a dedicated card. Try to find some reviews and skip all the parts about features and connectivity and whatnot and go straight to how it sounds. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/ASUS-Xonar-DX-PCI-Express-71-Audio-Card/?page=4 edit: I use the X-Fi Surround 5.1 USB sound card, though I don't particularly recommend it and don't use any of Creative's special processing effects. For $50 it's certainly way way better than my laptop Conexant onboard audio with my Klipsch Custom-2 earphones. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On June 21 2010 11:50 Myrmidon wrote: There's always a debate over how much objective measurements of audio quality correlate with the subjective listening experience, but here is an RMAA test comparison of your onboard audio chip with a couple of respected Asus sound cards (the cheaper DX is around $80): http://hothardware.com/Reviews/ASUS-Xonar-DX-PCI-Express-71-Audio-Card/?page=4 edit: I use the X-Fi Surround 5.1 USB sound card, though I don't particularly recommend it and don't use any of Creative's special processing effects. For $50 it's certainly way way better than my laptop Conexant onboard audio with my Klipsch Custom-2 earphones. I'm not sure how to interpretate those test results, but I'm assuming the Xonar DX is the best one from those results? NonY seems to have the same card and the price isn't too bad, anyone else that has any experience with the Xonar DX? | ||
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Hokum
Norway9 Posts
1) Creative cards can and do cause irq conflicts with other hardware, typically usb, causing games to crash and/or not load at all. Xonar cards do not have this issue, so I really had no choice anyway. 2) The sound from the Xonar DX seems cleaner in the mid-range and generally bigger and fuller then the Creative x-fi, which is not a bad soundcard ...when it works. The sound also seems denser and tighter, though I guess that is only preset equalizer stuff(?) FYI my experience is through a logitech z4 2.1 system | ||
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ruXxar
Norway5669 Posts
Asus(with their xonar lineup) and Auzentech.(check out the X-fi prelude) | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On June 21 2010 23:21 gillon wrote: I'm not sure how to interpretate those test results, but I'm assuming the Xonar DX is the best one from those results? NonY seems to have the same card and the price isn't too bad, anyone else that has any experience with the Xonar DX? Lower values are better, except for the dynamic range. These are signal metrics from live output/input testing of the devices, and most of them (noise, intermodulation distortion, harmonic distortion, etc.) represent some sort of audio infidelity. edit: to answer your question directly, the newer, smaller, and less expensive DX was about the same as the D2, while both were way better than the Realtek ALC888, which the top-end integrated audio chipset you have. I found a wiki article that covers what they mean, in case you're interested. After a certain point, you have to expect that your headphones are the weak link and not the sound card, so I would definitely not go for the highest-end product. I don't have a Xonar DX, but a lot of people seem to like it, and it has the best audio metrics of any card in its price range. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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RumZ
United States956 Posts
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
In the end, I'll never know if the difference is worth it for me without actually buying it and trying.  Thanks for all the input, guys. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/How-On-Board-Audio-Works/28 http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Audio-Codec-Comparison-Table/520/2 ALC888 channels 7.1+2 intput 20-bit output 24-bit max in sampling 96 KHz max out sampling 192 KHz SNR in 90 dB SNR out 97 dB above 95db is quite acceptable for output. | ||
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Zilver
Finland282 Posts
The onboard sound caused EMI interferance, while the 4850 and soundcard got rid of this. But that's about the only difference I could hear between any of the devices. Right now I'm using my gpu's sound connected with an hdmi cable to my reciever, because for some reason the S/PDIF on the Auzentech soundcard won't output sound. That could probably be fixed with a reformat, since the issue is most likely with drivers conflicting. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On June 22 2010 04:56 semantics wrote: just seems like you're wasting money on something you don't necessarily need. http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/How-On-Board-Audio-Works/28 http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Audio-Codec-Comparison-Table/520/2 ALC888 channels 7.1+2 intput 20-bit output 24-bit max in sampling 96 KHz max out sampling 192 KHz SNR in 90 dB SNR out 97 dB above 95db is quite acceptable for output. These stats are from the datasheet of the ALC888 chip itself. I took a look at the datasheet, and it also quotes a relatively poor total harmonic distortion+noise for headphone amp out (32 ohms--the PC-360 in question is 50 ohms) at -78 dB and power supply rejection at -40 dB. Of course, these stats are produced from testing in ideal conditions in the lab. The power supply rejection in practice usually is a function of frequency, and it was not quoted as such on the spec sheet. In reality, maybe it's worse than -40 dB somewhere in 20-20000 Hz. Depending on the implementation of the chip with other parts on the motherboard, there may be a lot of real-world degradation. Mostly, the problem comes from picking up EMI from a lot of close-by IO on the motherboard as others have stated. Motherboard power supply voltages are often very noisy despite their voltage regulation, and the voltages from the power supplies themselves also vary significantly. Discrete sound cards have their own power filtering implementations which further reduce noise on the rail voltages. side note: The Xonar DX in question actually uses a floppy drive power connection straight from the PSU in an attempt to get cleaner power, in addition to power gotten from the motherboard through the PCI-E connection. The link I posted above tested the ALC888 on the MSI K9A2 Platinum (790 FX) motherboard. Maybe Gigabyte's board is much better in this regard. In any case, it really is difficult to say what differences will be audible to different people, and how good the ALC888 will hold up in practice. I concur that it might actually be a waste in the end, but I wouldn't assume that from the start. On June 22 2010 05:13 Zilver wrote: I've used my motherboard's onboard sound, an Auzentech x-raider 7.1 and my hd 4850's sound. The onboard sound caused EMI interferance, while the 4850 and soundcard got rid of this. But that's about the only difference I could hear between any of the devices. Right now I'm using my gpu's sound connected with an hdmi cable to my reciever, because for some reason the S/PDIF on the Auzentech soundcard won't output sound. That could probably be fixed with a reformat, since the issue is most likely with drivers conflicting. Just out of curiousity, but you had the motherboard do analog out to your receiver and heard the interference then? If you have a receiver, it doesn't matter what device is outputting to it as long as it's digital out. I guess your motherboard doesn't have digital out? | ||
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