EPTOn June 12 2010 11:22 IdrA wrote:
obviously not, lzgamer couldnt even give competent tic tac toe lessons.
obviously not, lzgamer couldnt even give competent tic tac toe lessons.
Oh my god
<3
Getting a coach. - Page 2
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
Oh my god <3 | ||
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Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 12 2010 12:02 CharlieMurphy wrote: I think what all the naysayers mean, is that if you can't figure out most of the stuff on your own to begin with. Then you're not gonna be good enough even after a coaching lesson for it to be worth it. The typical people who pay for coaching, I would assume, are the people who don't have time or wanna take some easy way to the top. This doesn't make any sense either and I think you are very much incorrect. If the only rts I have played before SC2 was BGH BW, but I decide that I want to become good at SC2, and I cant figure some things out on my own, that means I not going to improve enough after the coaching for it to be worth it? I think its the opposite, I will have been show things I couldn't figure out on my own and will improve so much from just one lesson that it will have been worth it. And hell yeah I want a easier way to the top. If I were to just play on my own and just practice by myself watch video's and what not it would take me a hell of a long time to make it to the top. If I can hire someone who is at the top and knows what it takes to get there, then if I am serious about makeing it to the top, why shouldn't I take the short cut? Also I don't intend to take just one lesson, I plan on doing this for the long haul until my coach thinks I have what it takes to make it to the top. | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
Do you consider making a couple hundred dollars a year the "top?" Because that's what you're paying for. | ||
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Onegu
United States9699 Posts
I am disabled so I have to be very selective in what I can be competitive in, I can be competitive in the workplace or on a football field. But I have always wanted to win even before I got sick. And I can see myself doing that in SC2. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
It's a talent thing imho. You can only learn so much. | ||
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eMbrace
United States1300 Posts
there's a lot of dreamers all of a sudden now that SC2 is coming out, but if anyone has a shot at getting pro then they are probably too busy to even glance at teamliquid or care what their strategy forums say, let alone some "coach." | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On June 12 2010 13:52 CharlieMurphy wrote: see that is exactly what I was saying. Top players don't need coaching from someone to be at the top. These people who are good foreigners at BW were always near the top when the game was new. And now just because they have BW experience isn't the only reason why they are at the top now. It's a talent thing imho. You can only learn so much. name a few professional athletes who dont have coaches. name a few progamers who dont have coaches. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
But you know, and I know these random people who get coaching from these things are never going to be top players, no offense. You're a perfect example idra. you were already decently skilled player without any kind of coaching. You probably at the most just mass gamed, watched reps and vods, and had a online team to practice builds with. you inherently understood the game and what you needed to do to get better at it. It's not much different from what you do in korea for bw except now its live and more personal assuming that you understand and speak korean at a decent level now. Which is another good example of why coaching even at the higher level of talent, won't insta boost you to the top. I mean you've been in korea how long now and you're pretty much the same skill level even after all that coaching. Like I could get all the one on one coaching in the world from tiger woods for the rest of my life and I would still suck balls at golf. Because I just suck at golf when compared to good players, plain and simple. Sure I'd be better than the average joe country club player perhaps, but that's it. If that's what you hope to gain from this gosucoaching, then that's fine. You've got money to blow obviously to save you a little time otherwise you wouldn't be paying for video game lessons. | ||
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Onegu
United States9699 Posts
On June 12 2010 13:58 eMbrace wrote: eh, it's 99% in how much work you put towards your goal. there's a lot of dreamers all of a sudden now that SC2 is coming out, but if anyone has a shot at getting pro then they are probably too busy to even glance at teamliquid or care what their strategy forums say, let alone some "coach." Are you serious, am I understanding you correctly in you saying that someone who just plays and does so by trial and error, without looking at strategy sites like teamliquid has a better chance than someone who looks at strategy sites. Pleas tell me you were kidding or You wrote it wrong or I read it wrong. I mean if you guys really think that people can get the same out of not having a good coach, then having a good coach, I really think you are delusional. Its one thing if you don't think people shouldn't spend money on it and a completely other to think that having a coach is bad. | ||
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eMbrace
United States1300 Posts
On June 12 2010 14:11 Onegu wrote: Are you serious, am I understanding you correctly in you saying that someone who just plays and does so by trial and error, without looking at strategy sites like teamliquid has a better chance than someone who looks at strategy sites. Pleas tell me you were kidding or You wrote it wrong or I read it wrong. I mean if you guys really think that people can get the same out of not having a good coach, then having a good coach, I really think you are delusional. Its one thing if you don't think people shouldn't spend money on it and a completely other to think that having a coach is bad. korean pros are so good because everything about their scene is professionally done. you are among people who live and breath Starcraft 10 hours a day, it's your job. all kids have here is some forum of other kids who aren't terribly good either (and yes I know there are a few respectable names that frequent here). i was talking down about this coach thing because it sounds a bit iffy to me just going to a website and paying some dude because he's a pretty good brood war player. coaches are obviously beneficial but i think you should be at certain level before you get a personal trainer for a game. especially for one that isn't even out yet. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
We're not talking about thousands of dollars here, its just a few bucks to get better at something he enjoys. I'm sure all the backseat spenders in this thread use their dollars on things we can nitpick at too, so please stfu. It's not even like coaching = progamer aspirations. Plenty of people pay for lessons in things they don't want to go pro at. Is it really that big a fucking crime to want to improve at something? It's all about how much your time is worth to you. If you feel a coach would make you better faster, and you'd enjoy it, it makes much more sense to spend 3 hours having fun learning from a coach than 6 hours trying builds from replays. If thats worth X dollars to you, spend it, more power to you. | ||
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Enfold
United States110 Posts
On June 12 2010 14:11 Onegu wrote: Are you serious, am I understanding you correctly in you saying that someone who just plays and does so by trial and error, without looking at strategy sites like teamliquid has a better chance than someone who looks at strategy sites. Pleas tell me you were kidding or You wrote it wrong or I read it wrong. I mean if you guys really think that people can get the same out of not having a good coach, then having a good coach, I really think you are delusional. Its one thing if you don't think people shouldn't spend money on it and a completely other to think that having a coach is bad. I think the way he meant that was the people he referenced (those with a chance at going pro) were far too busy building their skill the standard way (mass gaming, analyzing their replays) than to spend free time reading strategy forums or looking at coaching. Sure someone who games 4 hours a day and reads strategy forums 2 will probably do better than someone who games 4 and doesn't read, but I think he meant it as instead of playing 4 and reading 2 the guy with a shot would just play 6. (Obviously that isn't the actual amount of hours they'd play just an example) | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
Seriously I'm going to start handing out warnings and bans for this. | ||
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Onegu
United States9699 Posts
I think the way he meant that was the people he referenced (those with a chance at going pro) were far too busy building their skill the standard way (mass gaming, analyzing their replays) than to spend free time reading strategy forums or looking at coaching. Sure someone who games 4 hours a day and reads strategy forums 2 will probably do better than someone who games 4 and doesn't read, but I think he meant it as instead of playing 4 and reading 2 the guy with a shot would just play 6. Do you think this is true? I would put my money on the 4 and 2, But I do think the more likely event is 4,5-5 and 1.5-1. And I do think that person is ahead of the person who doesn't. And if we tweak this a little bit more to someone who plays 40 hours a week vs someone who plays 33, reads forums for 3 and gets coaching for 2. I think the person who has a coach is going to be further ahead in the end. | ||
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Enfold
United States110 Posts
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eMbrace
United States1300 Posts
Now of course, as Hot Bid is saying, getting a coach because having someone over your shoulder commentating on your play is an enjoyable thing to have for you -- then no one should speak against that. I just took from your responses that you sound very serious and passionate about the matter and as a result I just want to give some serious feedback -- which would be to put as many hours as you can (in a healthy manner of course) to get comfortable with this game when it is next available. visit forums if you really do find them beneficial, and play enough until you reach that plateau and could use a more professional critique to take your play to the next level. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
As hot_bid said it gets a little old when people start barking about spending money on this. I've been doing it for over a year and it has grown into a website and branched out to other players now... I have yet to rip anyone off. In fact you have 0 negative reports about my coaching. You do get weekly tourneys open to people who took lessons or didn't.. the community is expanding and growing and coaching is/will be a part of that. Help it prosper instead of being a negative nancy who thinks this is a scam to abuse people you ignorantly assume can't spend their money wisely. Nobody gets mad when someone drops 100$ on a proteam jacket but people are infuriated when someone spends 20$ with one of their heroes for an hour of concentrated gaming. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On June 12 2010 15:14 {88}iNcontroL wrote: a lot of what you guys don't get as well is a big part of the reason people like idra or others didn't "need" a coach while they were top bw players is because they trained, communicated and hung out with other top gamers on a regular basis. Onegu does not have that access. Watching replays, vods or a day9 daily does not provide that kind of support. Getting a few lessons replicates that scenario to a smaller degree but for those that don't have access to that kind of stuff even a limited amount of time with players who are trying to improve their game. As hot_bid said it gets a little old when people start barking about spending money on this. I've been doing it for over a year and it has grown into a website and branched out to other players now... I have yet to rip anyone off. In fact you have 0 negative reports about my coaching. You do get weekly tourneys open to people who took lessons or didn't.. the community is expanding and growing and coaching is/will be a part of that. Help it prosper instead of being a negative nancy who thinks this is a scam to abuse people you ignorantly assume can't spend their money wisely. Nobody gets mad when someone drops 100$ on a proteam jacket but people are infuriated when someone spends 20$ with one of their heroes for an hour of concentrated gaming. This is exactly right. You're not only paying for "lessons," but an environment to practice in as well. You will improve much more if you play with the top players consistently than if you mass game on a ladder and discuss builds with random people. The top players from BW all had connections with each other from the get-go, while your average Joe player was left alone to duke it out by himself. It's not just about what you train, but who you train with. | ||
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oo_xerox
United States852 Posts
On June 12 2010 14:28 Hot_Bid wrote: Seriously I'm going to start handing out warnings and bans for this. yeah, you really should... On June 12 2010 14:24 Hot_Bid wrote: We're not talking about thousands of dollars here, its just a few bucks to get better at something he enjoys. I'm sure all the backseat spenders in this thread use their dollars on things we can nitpick at too, so please stfu. yeah....well......i spent a lot of money on candies.... | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
I am pretty much sick of this though, every time coaching or lessons or camps are brought up everyone has to give their 2 cents about how its a waste of money. Dude, if someone wants to spend their money to make their experience on SC2 more enjoyable then who's fucking business is that but their own? Lay off their ass and let them do what they want. Its great that the gosucoaching guys can attempt to expand the industry within the foreign scene so seriuosly get off their dicks about it and if you think its a bad investment (and obviously you've never had the chance of knowing if this is true or not without trying it) then shut the hell up. | ||
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