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So after a long season of playing a lot of games (for me at least) I finally hit D+ at around 140 games (cause I'm terrible). Since then I've played about ten or so games against other D+ players and in every single one I was cheesed. There was literally two games where I didn't get cheesed.
So I imagine all you other D+ players and beyond experienced something similar at some point or another. How did you deal with it? Did you play super defensively in the early game, assuming that the other player was gonna cheese? Or did you just play standard and deal with it? I'm kinda trying to figure out the best way to approach the situation. Honestly, I don't mind being cheesed that much, but when it becomes difficult to find an at least semi standard game, I kinda lose motivation.
Thanks in advance for any tips.
  
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Korea (South)2625 Posts
holy jesus, iccup does not have THAT much cheese
stop making cheese complain blogs
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You need to play standard and deal with it, if you're good at defending ur ahead. so np!
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On February 25 2010 07:07 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
holy jesus, iccup does not have THAT much cheese
stop making cheese complain blogs
My last ten games tells me differently. Maybe I had a bad streak or something. And to clarify I'm less complaining about cheese and more asking other players how they got over it.
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On February 25 2010 07:09 michael. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 07:07 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
holy jesus, iccup does not have THAT much cheese
stop making cheese complain blogs
My last ten games tells me differently. Maybe I had a bad streak or something. And to clarify I'm less complaining about cheese and more asking other players how they got over it.
Learn to defend against it, always keep that thought - "this fucker might cheese my ass" - in the back of your head. Scout often, learn the places where someone would put proxy buildings.
In a series you may have to face cheese, its a huge part of the game.
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If you notice 90% of your opposition is going to cheese you, you might as well play super defensively and win. Fuck playing standard and being vulnerable to something most people does, when you could get away with an easy 90% winrate. I don't really have the same experience of most people cheesing me on iccup though.
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this is just the way iccup is. trust me if you start playing safe against cheese your opponents are gonna stop cheesing.
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On February 25 2010 07:18 Foreplay wrote:
this is just the way iccup is. trust me if you start playing safe against cheese your opponents are gonna stop cheesing.
What you think his entire rank is in on some kind of secret conspiracy against him, studying his replays and shit? Get a sense of what kind of play styles you're likely to face and play accordingly.
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D+ ICCUP Scenarios
A. 300 APM Korean who will rape you in a standard game
B. People who WILL cheese you
In all honesty though as much as it sucks you just have to learn how to deal with it... consider that at D+ people will have somewhat decent micro... and shitty macro so they'll try to win in 7 min. or less... It's just a phase of the game you'll learn and when you are able to defend that you move to C- and proceed to keep getting raped by standard play because your macro sucks 
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just remember to scout every possible cheese-spot if you'r worried :p
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You should be able to deal with cheese when playing standard. If you can't either it's not cheese or you're playing greedy.
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On February 25 2010 07:07 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
holy jesus, iccup does not have THAT much cheese
stop making cheese complain blogs
holy jesus, the world does not have THAT much murder and robbery
stop making robbery and murder reports.
+ Show Spoiler +Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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On February 25 2010 07:26 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote:D+ ICCUP Scenarios A. 300 APM Korean who will rape you in a standard game B. People who WILL cheese you In all honesty though as much as it sucks you just have to learn how to deal with it... consider that at D+ people will have somewhat decent micro... and shitty macro so they'll try to win in 7 min. or less... It's just a phase of the game you'll learn and when you are able to defend that you move to C- and proceed to keep getting raped by standard play because your macro sucks
this is funny considering ur from peru
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i think the problem is that people see a weakness in your build that they are cheesing, not necessarily thinking "5pool" before the game starts.
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On February 25 2010 07:45 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 07:07 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
holy jesus, iccup does not have THAT much cheese
stop making cheese complain blogs
holy jesus, the world does not have THAT much murder and robbery stop making robbery and murder reports. + Show Spoiler +Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I'm failing to see the relevance.
and there isn't a 80% cheese at D+. and most of the cheese are terribly executed anyways.
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I've taken down a few 300 apm KRs and I'm still struggling with D+. and yes there is a GREAT deal of cheese....some guy 4 pooled me, and never made more than 4 drones, I even got a sair out and couldn't find his overlords fast enough....pissed me off soooo bad.
Just keep playing really is all that can be done.
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On February 25 2010 07:52 N3rV[Green] wrote:
I've taken down a few 300 apm KRs and I'm still struggling with D+. and yes there is a GREAT deal of cheese....some guy 4 pooled me, and never made more than 4 drones, I even got a sair out and couldn't find his overlords fast enough....pissed me off soooo bad.
Just keep playing really is all that can be done.
i don't understand... the zerg made lings off 1 hatch and 4 drones and won? you even got a sair out and he still won?
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C- cheeses like a mother fucker
you get all these protoss that are terrible and only know how to cheese its quite amusing
but then i lose to it anyway cuz im bad
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I look forward by getting cheesed in certain matchups/maps -- it makes winning games a hell of a lot easier than dealing with a long macro war (provided of course you stop complaining long enough to learn how to defend it and thus get a big advantage).
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I think people classify a little too much as cheese. I've gotten tons of rage from people when I do 9pool speed builds when fools just don't defend properly or try to blindly FE etc.
Be less greedy with your openings, scout more, etc.
Also don't expect casual D/D+ players to have the same mindset of risk / reward as progamers. Even if something is an all-in cheese, if all you lose is 50iccup points when it fails, is the risk really that high? =p
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Thanks guys for all the responses. I guess I'll just keep to my standard builds and scout a little earlier for cheeses.
And these are most definitely not just "weaknesses of my build" when every TvT i get bbsed and proxy gated by every protoss. I played a Zerg three times who went 1 hatch muta twice (easy wins) and 4 pool once (should have been easy win but my marine died cause a scv decided to block him at the last possible second from entering the bunker-due to me being terrible )
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Ya, the iccup points system makes it much more preferable to play a whole bunch of really quick games to get points than to try to play standard and end up with 15-25 minute games. So people will either cheese, allin, or use a really aggressive build in hope that they can pull off a quick win. Things like 2 fact, BBS, 2 or 3 hatch hydra, 9 pool speed, proxy gates, dt rushes, etc. Not always cheese, but rarely the super standard macro builds.
Its the reason I don't ladder much, cause I don't really play to get better as much as I play because its fun, and I get much more satisfaction winning a 20 minute management game than stopping some kids cheese.
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On February 25 2010 07:56 dekuschrub wrote:
C- cheeses like a mother fucker
you get all these protoss that are terrible and only know how to cheese its quite amusing
but then i lose to it anyway cuz im bad
lol +1
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1) Iccup awards mass games more so than actual skill in a way. A four-minute game won is as much as a one hour game, while if I play on a MotW, win once out of three times against people better than or equal to my rank, I still come out with a point gain.
2) It isn't a bad idea to play out these builds! I myself had trouble against Terran BBS, so for a few games I tried it and understood some key steps to block it. (if you think about it, practicing "cheese" in 6minute games means about 4-6 games an hour, versus time consuming standard games where it'll be 2-4 and far more taxing on your endurance.
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Counter the cheese with whine.
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On February 25 2010 07:26 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote:D+ ICCUP Scenarios A. 300 APM Korean who will rape you in a standard game B. People who WILL cheese you In all honesty though as much as it sucks you just have to learn how to deal with it... consider that at D+ people will have somewhat decent micro... and shitty macro so they'll try to win in 7 min. or less... It's just a phase of the game you'll learn and when you are able to defend that you move to C- and proceed to keep getting raped by standard play because your macro sucks
Lol, coming from someone who is peruvian I'm assuming you fall into the B range?
Op, depending on how all in his cheese is either continue to play standard and outplay him or counter with cheese play yourself. If he does 2 gate proxy either get 1 gate goon with 2 lots and a battery or counter with your own 2 gates.
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I'm terran, so no shield batteries or goons for me 
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On February 25 2010 08:14 numLoCK wrote:
Ya, the iccup points system makes it much more preferable to play a whole bunch of really quick games to get points than to try to play standard and end up with 15-25 minute games. So people will either cheese, allin, or use a really aggressive build in hope that they can pull off a quick win. Things like 2 fact, BBS, 2 or 3 hatch hydra, 9 pool speed, proxy gates, dt rushes, etc. Not always cheese, but rarely the super standard macro builds.
Its the reason I don't ladder much, cause I don't really play to get better as much as I play because its fun, and I get much more satisfaction winning a 20 minute management game than stopping some kids cheese.
But cheese wont help you get better and any rank you achieve with it is kind of a fake rank. Playing standard will make you a better player mehanically. Also the longer your games are the more experience you will have in certain situations.
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On February 25 2010 08:56 michael. wrote:I'm terran, so no shield batteries or goons for me
bunker with 4 scvs repairing will stop anything
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On February 25 2010 08:58 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 08:56 michael. wrote:I'm terran, so no shield batteries or goons for me bunker with 4 scvs repairing will stop anything
except nony.
Anyway, you will be able to defend lots of cheeses if you are good with your SCVs. If you're having problems with ling allins tvz or 4gate allins tvp, just hotkey your natural SCVs and put them in front of your rines/tanks as soon as you see shit start to move toward you. If the cheese comes earlier than that, make sure your building placement gives your first rine a nice spot to hide vs zeals or a nice path to the minline/bunker vs lings
Also use your supply depots well, at worst they are an annoyance to micro around for your opponent and at best it'll totally ruin their day.
But most importantly, your opening should be nearly perfect. Much easier to cheese a terran who has 2 tanks when he should have 3 or 6 rines when he should have 10. Even Flash loses to BBS tvt so don't worry about that so much >_>
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On February 25 2010 07:50 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2010 07:26 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote:D+ ICCUP Scenarios A. 300 APM Korean who will rape you in a standard game B. People who WILL cheese you In all honesty though as much as it sucks you just have to learn how to deal with it... consider that at D+ people will have somewhat decent micro... and shitty macro so they'll try to win in 7 min. or less... It's just a phase of the game you'll learn and when you are able to defend that you move to C- and proceed to keep getting raped by standard play because your macro sucks this is funny considering ur from peru
if only he talked about lag too haha
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smurf more to get your game in line
and btw, all the practice should get you really good at dealing with proxy gates, bbs, 4pool etc. a lot of it is just micro and scouting the right places at the right times for instance, you need to scout your main at 10 or so tvp on desti or hbr. then you get a bit better and realize you suck =( at dealing with players who arent terrible cheesers. practicepracticepractice
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Anecdotal evidence blog is anecdotal.
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I'm d+ and I cheese 9/10 games, while being cheesed myself in at least half of them (luckily hiding pylons wins me most of those games) When every 2nd PvP you play you meet another players probe in the middle of the map 30 seconds into the game, things are pretty interesting.
It's fun man, try it yourself.
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I have two thoughts.
1. There could be a bad luck factor. Let's say 10% of all ICCup games are cheese. That doesn't mean "if I play 10 games I will get cheesed once," it means on average you will only be cheesed once. But with a large enough sample size, the probability of a "cheese streak" occuring is actually very high.
2. A lot of inexperienced players tend to think there are things that are cheese that are not cheese. There's a difference between gimmicky play and cheesey play.
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On MoonGlaive. 70% of korean zergs will 4 pool... it gets really fucking annoying.
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On February 25 2010 20:33 haduken wrote:
On MoonGlaive. 70% of korean zergs will 4 pool... it gets really fucking annoying.
It's fun for someone like me who plays 1 base builds 
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EPT
