• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 17:36
CET 23:36
KST 07:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !11Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2
StarCraft 2
General
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced! What's the best tug of war? The Grack before Christmas Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies
Tourneys
OSC Season 13 World Championship $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play
Brood War
General
What are former legends up to these days? BW General Discussion How soO Began His ProGaming Dreams Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] LB SemiFinals - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] WB & LB Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread 12 Days of Starcraft The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
National Diversity: A Challe…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1481 users

Most efficient progamers?

Blogs > Catch]22
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
February 20 2010 20:19 GMT
#1
I was thinking alot today about how different progamers have different styles, on how some rely a bit more on incredible mechanics, some on innovative builds, some on cheese etc...

I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge on which progamers were the most "efficient" at playing, and by this I mean, who did the most with the least APM, I'm a firm believer that APM doesnt equal skill linearly, but something makes certain progamers able to compete with less APM than others, if so, do you know who these are? I remember hearing alot about how Savior had unusually low APM, its this I mean, Savior managed to do everything he had to do with remarkably (or compared to the others at least) few actions per minute.

So who are the players right now who manage to play really good with low APMs? Which players have really high APM?
Do you guys know?

*
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
February 20 2010 20:23 GMT
#2
Movie 240-270 APM
Stork 260-320 APM
Fantasy 280-320 APM
Flash 280-320 APM

Flash and Fantasy are definetly the most efficient, especially judging by their styles, you'd never think that Fantasy is a low APM player(terran wise). And ofc Oov/Savior back in their primes
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
February 20 2010 20:32 GMT
#3
I would really never imagine that Fantasy has comparatively low APM, especially how you often hear on the strategyforums that the strategies he employs, such as the Iloveoov Build (TvP) and doing Fake Mech etc are much more mechanically demanding (=moar APM) than the "regular" styles that you may learn from Flash.
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
February 20 2010 20:32 GMT
#4
Nal_ra
And all is illuminated.
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
February 20 2010 20:33 GMT
#5
On February 21 2010 05:23 samachking wrote:
Movie 240-270 APM
Stork 260-320 APM
Fantasy 280-320 APM
Flash 280-320 APM

Flash and Fantasy are definetly the most efficient, especially judging by their styles, you'd never think that Fantasy is a low APM player(terran wise). And ofc Oov/Savior back in their primes

Definitely Stork, Flash and Fantasy. Movie does not belong in that group, simply because he's not at their level, so his lower apm might actually be hurting him.
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17732 Posts
February 20 2010 20:36 GMT
#6
sea
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
February 20 2010 20:39 GMT
#7
On February 21 2010 05:36 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
sea


Wow I never saw his apm due to him never going deep in the OSL, but I just checked his reps and 280-320 apm is pretty sick for him, although he is basically a Flash with unrefined builds/game sense.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
February 20 2010 20:40 GMT
#8
On February 21 2010 05:23 samachking wrote:
Movie 240-270 APM
Stork 260-320 APM
Fantasy 280-320 APM
Flash 280-320 APM

Flash and Fantasy are definetly the most efficient, especially judging by their styles, you'd never think that Fantasy is a low APM player(terran wise). And ofc Oov/Savior back in their primes

I think these are even a bit high. My bwchart averages for saved reps:

Stork: 245
Fantasy: 255
Flash: 295

compared to

Idra: 319
Bisu: 360
Jaedong: 391
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
February 20 2010 20:42 GMT
#9
Stork, Flash, and Fantasy come to mind immediately, as mentioned before.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
February 20 2010 20:44 GMT
#10
Heaven[30D.O.M] imo
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
February 20 2010 20:45 GMT
#11
cgrinker: 23


That's pretty efficient.
Hyperionnn
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Turkey4968 Posts
February 20 2010 20:45 GMT
#12
On February 21 2010 05:44 Mindcrime wrote:
Heaven[30D.O.M] imo


500 apm T lol
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
February 20 2010 20:46 GMT
#13
On February 21 2010 05:40 3clipse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 21 2010 05:23 samachking wrote:
Movie 240-270 APM
Stork 260-320 APM
Fantasy 280-320 APM
Flash 280-320 APM

Flash and Fantasy are definetly the most efficient, especially judging by their styles, you'd never think that Fantasy is a low APM player(terran wise). And ofc Oov/Savior back in their primes

I think these are even a bit high. My bwchart averages for saved reps:

Stork: 245
Fantasy: 255
Flash: 295

compared to

Idra: 319
Bisu: 360
Jaedong: 391


The thing is with replays, if you actually have a replay they are probably arent even playing their best in that game since PL/OSL/MSL games are not released and all you have is leaked practice games + foreign tourneys. Stork plays really low apm in foreign tourneys because he doesnt really care too much, and I would assume their apms are much higher in OSL matches where their career is dependant on it. Someone has to check some of the post osl records I guess.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
February 20 2010 20:46 GMT
#14
How much of this is really EAPM? I never do anything that... doesnt actually DO anything in my game, except warming up with 1212121212 in the beginning, and going F2F3F2F3 a few times to make sure my locations are working (same with comsats)
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17732 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-20 20:51:01
February 20 2010 20:49 GMT
#15
forget eapm. Eapm is really flawed

Also i dont know if its the same as efficient but sea and bisu are known to be one of the cleanest pros mechanically. For efficient ill probably have to say oov and savior.
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
dcberkeley
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada844 Posts
February 20 2010 20:54 GMT
#16
by.hero is the least efficient for sure.
Moktira is da bomb
The6357
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States1268 Posts
February 20 2010 20:56 GMT
#17
jaedong..391 apm?
wtf..-_-; his fingers must be really good on bojis...
2010 worldcup!! corea fighting!!!
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
February 20 2010 20:58 GMT
#18
Stork, Movie, Best and Fantasy are all sub 250. I've seen replays where Best and Movie go well below 200 late game.

Theres nothing special about these players, they spam less and probably have slightly weaker 1a2a3a4a5a and muscle reaction, but it doesn't matter too much.

Obviously Really is the main incredibly fast high level pro right now.

Most zergs are pushing 350 as well. Kwanro, hero, Jaedong, Luxury. Even amateurs like Terror had over 350.

Don't see what this thread is really meant to prove though, I have faster hands than Flash, but who'd win......
My. Copy. Is. Here.
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
February 20 2010 21:04 GMT
#19
On February 21 2010 05:58 Piy wrote:
Stork, Movie, Best and Fantasy are all sub 250. I've seen replays where Best and Movie go well below 200 late game.

Theres nothing special about these players, they spam less and probably have slightly weaker 1a2a3a4a5a and muscle reaction, but it doesn't matter too much.

Obviously Really is the main incredibly fast high level pro right now.

Most zergs are pushing 350 as well. Kwanro, hero, Jaedong, Luxury. Even amateurs like Terror had over 350.

Don't see what this thread is really meant to prove though, I have faster hands than Flash, but who'd win......

no
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
February 20 2010 21:08 GMT
#20
On February 21 2010 05:23 samachking wrote:
Movie 240-270 APM
Stork 260-320 APM
Fantasy 280-320 APM
Flash 280-320 APM

Flash and Fantasy are definetly the most efficient, especially judging by their styles, you'd never think that Fantasy is a low APM player(terran wise). And ofc Oov/Savior back in their primes

Judging by OSL finals games, Movie is closer to 230 apm.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 21
20:00
WB & LB Finals
Cross vs Dewalt
ZZZero.O338
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason344
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 11797
ZZZero.O 338
Shuttle 173
Hyun 45
Dewaltoss 42
ggaemo 32
910 29
HiyA 13
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm53
Other Games
Grubby6576
FrodaN3509
tarik_tv2757
B2W.Neo1413
ceh91193
fl0m855
Mlord388
RotterdaM301
Liquid`Hasu282
ArmadaUGS187
Mew2King82
KnowMe36
minikerr25
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1145
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 29
• Reevou 9
• RyuSc2 5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie3290
• Shiphtur373
• tFFMrPink 21
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
10h 24m
Wardi Open
13h 24m
OSC
1d 13h
Solar vs MaxPax
ByuN vs Krystianer
Spirit vs TBD
OSC
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
OSC
5 days
OSC
5 days
OSC
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S1: W1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W2
Escore Tournament S1: W3
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.