EPT
value of money
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:17 koreasilver wrote: Uh. Define "value". Money no longer represents a quantity of gold that a bank has stored for you... but that doesn't mean it no longer has value. | ||
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
Also, don't post when your drunk anymore. | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32044 Posts
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StarN
United States2587 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
That said, since the quantity of fiat money is controlled by the government, rather than fixed (ie - pegged to the amount of gold), in some cases a bill can become useless or severely eroded (ie - Zimbabwe last year, Germany after WW1, etc.). Some people who do not like the thought of a central bank making monetary policy decisions still argue we should go back to a gold standard of sorts. This is a minority view today. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:19 meeple wrote: Define "value". Money no longer represents a quantity of gold that a bank has stored for you... but that doesn't mean it no longer has value. I still don't know if he means it like that or that currency doesn't hold value because they literally aren't made of precious metals anymore. | ||
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Not_A_Notion
Ireland441 Posts
I know Milton Friedman is a controversial figure, but whatever about his libertarian beliefs, he was a good monetary economist, here is a pretty interesting historical account of money + Show Spoiler + EDIT* Actually if anyone has read any good books on the history of money, maybe you could let me know. As a lot of the stories are hilarious. | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
and sorry that my english isnt so good... i would like to see some american to speak other langue than their first... i mean if u are mexican spanish doesnt count or canada english/french btw i read two friedman books , money matters and freedom choice or how is it in english... but anyway thx for link | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Husky
United States3362 Posts
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Always
United States376 Posts
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:33 Jonoman92 wrote: You are correct. The gold standard no longer exists because there is way more money in existence than there is gold monetary value to cover it. sry but this is like most stupid argument.. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:33 Jonoman92 wrote: You are correct. The gold standard no longer exists because there is way more money in existence than there is gold monetary value to cover it. The amount of gold in circulation does not matter. It would only affect the conversion rate. | ||
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:20 EsX_Raptor wrote: I think he's trying to practice his English skills, hopefully. you are dumb, learn another language at least that good and then come again | ||
Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
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DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
Also, trading bananas for a donkey isn't very accurate ... | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:40 Chill wrote: Ok now I don't feel bad for you not liking me. uh? if u mean about my knowledge of english.. its quite big different to speak or to write and to understand.. and i sadly understand ur commentanting and ur knowledge or bw is like my knowledge of korean langue sry | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:36 kulik- wrote: sry but this is like most stupid argument.. hey screw you I was agreeing with you.... or at least I thought I was... not entirely sure what you said in the OP. I think people are being a bit harsh but you shouldn't be rude when you are not expressing/comprehending your own and other peoples' thoughts correctly. On January 20 2010 04:43 kulik- wrote: uh? if u mean about my knowledge of english.. its quite big different to speak or to write and to understand.. and i sadly understand ur commentanting and ur knowledge or bw is like my knowledge of korean langue sry loool!!! nice post | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Now that the thread has gone nicely off-topic its time to check out. Good luck :-) | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
and jonoman sry for that but realy that argument is stupid because as someone said it that charge of money/gold would change or how to say it..and im know that i speak and write quite bad... because i dont have english in school anymore and i dont speak a lot lately so i really struggle with that... but i feel ofended that someone say ah u idiot u dont speak well english and hes from america or canada... if u dont understand so go somewhere else... | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:43 kulik- wrote: uh? if u mean about my knowledge of english.. its quite big different to speak or to write and to understand.. and i sadly understand ur commentanting and ur knowledge or bw is like my knowledge of korean langue sry hahaha funny | ||
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Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:43 kulik- wrote: uh? if u mean about my knowledge of english.. its quite big different to speak or to write and to understand.. and i sadly understand ur commentanting and ur knowledge or bw is like my knowledge of korean langue sry 그래서 천재 입니까? 그래요? | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:55 Chill wrote: Yes the comments about English are stupid. I wish people wouldn't do that when the point is clear despite the English having mistakes. 그래서 천재 입니까? 그래요? some kind of canadian humor? like ur knowledge of bw are good so i will read that? ... dont get how someone like u can have some respect on tl... btw thats also different between u and me i know that i sux in english but u are not willing to admit that u sux in bw and i doubt that u will get better mostly u should focus on builds on player history and also i think u can just watch highlights and u will get finally some knowledge or prediction how the battle will end... which in u really sux the most imo.. still dont understand how u could say idra vs nony when nony made big attack that nony is in bad angle ... i wanted to start cry that someone like u is commenting event like TSL | ||
RaGe
Belgium9947 Posts
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
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KwarK
United States42419 Posts
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Intr3pid
Switzerland336 Posts
So money per se has no value, it is an intermediary good that grants the holder and the receiver some rights in form of purchasing power. So you were right and your friends are idiots (in that matter). | ||
MasterOfChaos
Germany2896 Posts
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KwarK
United States42419 Posts
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Intr3pid
Switzerland336 Posts
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
On January 20 2010 05:22 KwarK wrote: Obv money purely has conceptual value. But why is that a problem? When someone gives you money you're not getting paper. You're getting 3 loaves of bread. Or a chicken. Or whatever else you want to buy. It's just staggered bartering. In a barter system you need to have something they want to buy something off them. In a money system as long as everyone wants something then it all works out the same. There's no need for gold in the system. This is ridiculous. How did that money get its worth in the first place may i ask? | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On January 20 2010 05:22 KwarK wrote: Obv money purely has conceptual value. But why is that a problem? When someone gives you money you're not getting paper. You're getting 3 loaves of bread. Or a chicken. Or whatever else you want to buy. It's just staggered bartering. In a barter system you need to have something they want to buy something off them. In a money system as long as everyone wants something then it all works out the same. There's no need for gold in the system. Barter/trade system is the best form of value (or whatever it's called). You can even trade labor for things. But the problem is that you can't split some things in pieces, when you have to weigh out the value of all these things to trade it get's messy. Being able to put your own value on the things you own is the ultimate way to control your finance. Money acts as a placeholder. When you have savings in a bank and the dollar goes down, you lose money even though it's the same work the whole time. Reminds me of how when I played the WoW auction house market, I'd buy everything low and put it up mid/high and then profit, rinse repeat. Then when I have the bankroll, move on to the next expensive high priorty item (started out with cloths, then engineer stuff, first aid books, then energies and shards for enchants). I could even effect my own trade business by taking losses in the auction house and selling enchants for higher prices with my own materials. An example would be buying all the shards for a high level enchant and reposting them for a few gold more, and monitoring any other additions and buying and reposting them. Then spamming in trade chat that I do enchants for a markup price equal or greater than the price in the AH for the mats. And if I wasn't around/online/or the person didn't wanna deal with me, they had little/no choice anyways because I had all the mats in the AH. I made a shit load of gold this way, probably more effective than chinese farmers. There was also an IRL story about some dude who started with a red paperclip and traded/upgraded it over and over until he got a house in canada or something. | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On January 20 2010 05:49 Saturnize wrote: This is ridiculous. How did that money get its worth in the first place may i ask? it has value because the people value it and give it value, and because the government enforces it. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
On January 20 2010 05:03 kulik- wrote: some kind of canadian humor? like ur knowledge of bw are good so i will read that? ... dont get how someone like u can have some respect on tl... btw thats also different between u and me i know that i sux in english but u are not willing to admit that u sux in bw and i doubt that u will get better mostly u should focus on builds on player history and also i think u can just watch highlights and u will get finally some knowledge or prediction how the battle will end... which in u really sux the most imo.. still dont understand how u could say idra vs nony when nony made big attack that nony is in bad angle ... i wanted to start cry that someone like u is commenting event like TSL - I'll do my best. I told that I won't be disappointing, but I've been bad so I apologize. I'm gonna try to be fired up again. | ||
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Intr3pid
Switzerland336 Posts
This is ridiculous. How did that money get its worth in the first place may i ask? People said like "I give you 2 loaves of bread for 1 chicken or this deed that enables you to get 2 loaves of bread, 1 barrel of beer etc."? Or how did gold get its value? Questions! (hint: the same way) | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:37 Ricjames wrote: you are dumb, learn another language at least that good and then come again And what the hell is your problem? | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
Money has no concrete value; it has value because people believe it has value. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On January 20 2010 05:53 Chill wrote: - I'll do my best. I told that I won't be disappointing, but I've been bad so I apologize. I'm gonna try to be fired up again. Why the fuck would you derail this thread again? It started to get people talking and you just had to ruin it. You even got me talking  It is a known fact that money has value do to it being the currency nowadays. Imagine if one day money would lose it's value and become just another paper weight. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Intr3pid
Switzerland336 Posts
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Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
On January 20 2010 05:53 ieatkids5 wrote: it has value because the people value it and give it value, and because the government enforces it. The American Government didn't always have a monopoly on currency that it does today. The government can't just go, "hey guys heres some new money go and use it!" no there were other currencies besides the dollar that were worth alot more which were backed up by something(the dollar was too). It actually took awhile for the dollar to monopolize the currency in America. Of course it doesn't work that way anymore (sadly) and the dollar is pretty much fucked. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:19 meeple wrote: Define "value". Money no longer represents a quantity of gold that a bank has stored for you... but that doesn't mean it no longer has value. it has value as long as society plays along with it's given value. But it no longer an acutl standard where i can exchange it for gold or silver, it's also no longer needed cuz more of the world accepts currency it was needed when not everyone would accept a dollar or a pound but everyone excepted gold. "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private" is slapped right on the bill atleast a dollar note from the us | ||
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Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
Rare? Yes can be only found in certain geographic regions Difficult to extract and process? Yes requires intensive labour of metallurgy Does not rust/corrode/degrade? Yes can keep its form throughout centuries Can be made into anything? Yes extremely malleable Beautiful yellow colour? Yes Excellent conductor? Yes Bananas Rare? Yes can be only found in certain geographic regions Difficult to extract and process? Yes requires intensive labour of picking Does not rust/corrode/degrade? Yes although it does rot Can be made into anything? Yes many delicious recipes and desserts Beautiful yellow colour? Yes Excellent conductor? No ========== It's because it's an excellent conductor, obviously. | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
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Intr3pid
Switzerland336 Posts
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
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intrudor
Canada446 Posts
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i46.tinypic.com/2ce3gxu.jpg) | ||
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Ranix
United States666 Posts
Also: On January 20 2010 06:40 EsX_Raptor wrote: | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
When U.S. colonies were being settled, John Smith had the philosophy "if you don't work, you don't eat" and the modern currency was founded on that. Of course, money was existent long before that. | ||
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Yurebis
United States1452 Posts
On January 20 2010 07:16 RoieTRS wrote: I've always thought of money as a symbol for work. When U.S. colonies were being settled, John Smith had the philosophy "if you don't work, you don't eat" and the modern currency was founded on that. Of course, money was existent long before that. Being picky, it's not that you don't eat, but people won't provide you with the food they've produced. On January 20 2010 06:18 Intr3pid wrote: The US Fed is actually not a government but an independent institution. Its creation is mainly an achievement of J.P. Morgan and his peers in early 20th century. It's actually a very interesting story you mind enjoy if you are fond of the whole money thing. Oh my God, it's a conspiracy theory! Ban! It's not jut money that has no intrinsic value, arguably everything that is material (or immaterial, but that's obvious) has no intrinsic value until someone looks for it as a means to an end. By the power of austrian economics, I have the power! | ||
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
1. Both S and D is high 2. S is high and D is low 3. S is low and D is high 4. Both S and D is low 1. The value of the goods is normal 2. They cant sell the goods and has to lower the price. The value of the goods is low 3. There is not enough for everyone and buyers are fighting for the last goods by being the highest bidder. The value of the goods is high 4. The value of the goods is normal. Basically the value of money works the same way. The sellers are the federal reserve who print money and the buyers are the local banks in your neighboorhood. So basically its the bankworld who decide if your 100 dollar corresponds to 61.0958 Great british pounds which they do today. But maybe tomorrow your 100 dollar will correspond to only 10 GBP? How can you know what your 100 dollar will correspond to tomorrow when theres no gold to back it up? LOL | ||
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Achromic
773 Posts
Money (Currency) has value. The value of currency might vary from places to places. Maybe the value of money might rise or fall. But one things for sure, Money does have value. If you don't think so, then you are an idiot. | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
On January 20 2010 07:16 David Mudkips wrote: I think that in the US the money was based off of how much golds the government had stockpiled. The more golds it had the more monies it printed. Some shit let to more and there is no gold standard and the dollar is based off of other currencies I believe. Also: so u are quite wrong... value of money is more like of amount of money | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:20 Chef wrote: Using paper for money is only slightly more arbitrary than using precious metals for money (in terms of their value to a given individual in practical terms). Also, don't post when your drunk anymore. I think it's actually LESS arbitrary than using gold, since the price of gold varies like crazy whereas most 1st world nations have a pretty stable currency. | ||
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Lovin
Denmark812 Posts
Money, like gold, is 'hard' to obtain, or atleast it requires you to do something: Work. So money is in a sense (As it has been mentioned) a symbol of work. In fact, if we could put a value on every nice thing in our life we ever did, we would be able to live without money at all. We would just trade our nice-guy points for stuff and that'd be that. In a perfect world, anyway.. People still needs to believe in the value of the points to let them have something for it. There was a beautiful novel written on this: http://tqft.net/wiki/Maneki_Neko It is a great read, and I really do recommend you to read it! | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On January 20 2010 04:22 Hawk wrote: Yes, Ron Paul and about 50,000 other dumb, uninformed supporters of his from the internet. Wtf is wrong with supporting Ron Paul... | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
On January 20 2010 07:32 Lovin wrote: I don't know if this was mentioned, since I only read page 1 and 3 (I'm going to bed pretty soon), but have you ever thought about why gold is valueable and therefore able to back a currency? Because it's rare. That's it. Of course it has the bonus of looking pretty, which is how they got the idea in the first place, but if there were tons and tons of this stuff lying on every streetcorner, it wouldn't be damn well valueable, would it now? Money, like gold, is 'hard' to obtain, or atleast it requires you to do something: Work. So money is in a sense (As it has been mentioned) a symbol of work. In fact, if we could put a value on every nice thing in our life we ever did, we would be able to live without money at all. We would just trade our nice-guy points for stuff and that'd be that. In a perfect world, anyway.. People still needs to believe in the value of the points to let them have something for it. There was a beautiful novel written on this: http://tqft.net/wiki/Maneki_Neko It is a great read, and I really do recommend you to read it! comodity which will become as "money" doesnt depend on how does it look or something... but in jail money are cigaretes in germany after WW2 it was cigarets and alcohol... u right that rare thing are becomin money but today money is just paper which goverment force us to accept and govermetn[central bank] is makin more money doing inflation and stealing from us | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On January 20 2010 07:38 Piy wrote: Of course money's stupid and pointless. Isn't that common knowledge now? Yea so if everyone who posted in this thread could just give the worthless money to me so I can dispose of it that'd be great. PM me for paypal/pstars info. | ||
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
LOL | ||
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
On January 20 2010 07:44 exeexe wrote: To those of you who are informed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgMdHGGslPk LOL nice-,ú | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On January 20 2010 06:33 intrudor wrote: Czechs lol lol you're from the Bahamas? | ||
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Grim_Reaver
United States86 Posts
On January 20 2010 05:35 MasterOfChaos wrote: Money is worth something because people believe it is worth something. This. The value of paper money is entirely dependent on the people's trust in it. If I think your pretty green paper rectangle with a 100 on it is worth my pair of shoes, then we can make a trade. As long as I am convinced I can get something else for that 100, I am willing to accept the 100. It brings up some interesting questions, philosophically and sociologically. | ||
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n3m0
Portugal247 Posts
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kulik-
Czech Republic305 Posts
viktor kozeny? | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
Money is a store of value. Currency is a medium of exchange. What is value? For example, why is gold valuable? Value is something people "value". Most people think of this in terms of material use, for example, a hamburger has a set value because it can feed you. What wealth and value really are though, and always have been, is the ability to inspire, control, and most importantly cause other people to believe in something. Many times wealth is simply an appearance. Using this principle, rulers in the past have been able to accomplish great feats such as building the pyramids. Why spend so much energy and time building the pyramids? Because they inspired and controlled other human beings, and caused them to believe in something. People thing gold is valuable simply because it is rare, which is true, but the physical attractiveness actually makes it very useful for the purposes I've just described. So that is one way it has value. The value of a king's crown and scepter, for example, is nearly immeasurable. Money itself kind of reflects the morals of a culture, it reflects what they value and what they are willing to accept as value. Today, modern money isn't just a piece of paper. It is backed by something, which is known as debt. The dollar you have in your pocket represents money that someone, somewhere, owes to someone else. The reason this can be true is because all our money is created by private banks making loans. New money is created when a loan is taken out, and money is destroyed when a loan is repaid. The "value" in our money is someone's promise to repay a loan. Thats what its backed by. Its not just some arbitrary agreed upon medium of exchange. Another type of money, for example, is a bond. Its almost like cash. The bond literally refers to bondage; debt refers to slavery. So this is what makes our money worth something. Watch the youtube series "money as debt" to understand what our money is backed by. + Show Spoiler + edit: If it doesn't make sense to you, the reason our FRNs (federal reserve notes) have the power that they do is because they are the only way to repay debts. They have a monopoly on debt repayment. When you borrow money, the agreement is to pay the original amount of FRNs back plus additional FRNs for interest. You can't just pay them their original dollars back and pay the interest in barley or something. This is known as usury, the practice of money creating more money. If all loans are in FRNs, and they all must be repaid back, this creates a huge demand for FRNs because everyone needs them. They can't use other forms of value because the contract demands more FRNs than originally given out. All it took was one bank printing a special piece of paper and loaning it out, in conjunction with government sanctioned monopoly (legal mandate "This note is legal tender for all debts"), to create our money system. It used to be that all banks had their own banknotes, which were backed by gold in the banks' vaults. That was our money system previously. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
On January 20 2010 08:06 Grim_Reaver wrote: This. The value of paper money is entirely dependent on the people's trust in it. If I think your pretty green paper rectangle with a 100 on it is worth my pair of shoes, then we can make a trade. As long as I am convinced I can get something else for that 100, I am willing to accept the 100. It brings up some interesting questions, philosophically and sociologically. Not entirely correct. It is the note with legal monopoly on debt repayment...you have to pay your taxes and mortgage with FRNs. The power grab in 1913 that no one understands. | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
Then it has value! OMFG. Money has value. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
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sky_slasher
United States328 Posts
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torm3ntin
Brazil2534 Posts
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
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