|
this thread is a 2-pronged attack
first i want to show you some of my pix from my recent 5 night holiday to rome
thanks ever so to those who replied to my thread and offered tips. we didn't take any of them and spent 400 euros, conservatively. oh well.
the second prong to this thread is an issue that some of you might be aware has been bugging me since the age of 17. i have it in my head that my life will never be complete until i have a nose job and fix my (to me) horrifically ugly outward appearance.
this haunts me pretty much daily and has done all my life. i could go into details but just use your imagination how this affects my life in general.
it costs at least 3500 for a nose job and although i have 1k debt to a friend, 1k debt to lawyers for bills (oh shit), 1.4k debt in my bank and god knows how much debt for university (i never count that anyway) i am determined to afford this surgery within the next 5 years. i worked the last 2 years full time but , well thats what i ive got to show for it. life sucks, although if you're worse off than me than go ahead and call me a pretencious prick and move on.
what i really want to know from this huge community of men is comments in regard to this matter - ugliness, and plastic surgery. do you have any experience with it?
are YOU ugly? do you want surgery?
so yeah here's some pix to appease you and maybe ill get some 2nd-prong related responses from you. of what nature i dont dare to guess.
pwning nubs at the colloseum
top of this huge monument to the king who "unified" the italian states. see the banisters there? thats how big it is
trevi fountain, i threw a coin in o/c . funnily, we were sat at outside this restaurant round the corner for ages, listening to this weird noise, until we investigated and saw the fucking fountain right there 10 yards away
cant call yourself a tourist until you defile something for the purposes of a cheesy photo
STARCRAFT!!!!!
although we paid insane money, the food really is head over heals above british food. this is the kinda stuff you close your eyes to when you eat it
more defiling. hey, he started it
this awesome ball thing, which i didnt hear about over the headphones because i was too busy attacking it trying to make it spin the other direction.....hmmm
looking down upon the largest room in the history of mankind. see those little specs on the floor? people...
shopping, gucci, prada, bulgari....got told off for taking photos inside them
women have the most deceiving smiles - we were more than ready to go home by then!
 
|
More pictures of your lady friend please.
|
|
|
|
|
If it matters to you THAT much, go ahead and do it AFTER you've paid off your debts.
Personally, I don't think it will affect your life in any meaningful way. Any girl that's going to judge you on the shape of your nose is not a girl you want to spend your time with. Or any person in general who will judge you that way. You're far from hideous and you don't have leprosy or any truly castigating features. Your nose happens to have a large bridge, that's it. As long as you have a nice personality and are in good physical shape, you should have zero trouble getting through life with the looks you have.
It really doesn't matter. But there's nothing wrong with getting a nose job if that's what you want to do either.
|
Pretty much every time I go to a party or bar somebody says I look like Demetri Martin. It's mostly because we have similar noses. Looks sorta like a big hawk beak to me. Sorta goofy looking, but I don't think I would ever want to have surgery to make it look more normal.
|
Isn't this the same dude who claimed to be Chibi[owns]?
|
|
|
paying the debts is generally a life long thing, i dont know really why i brought it up other than to feel even more sorry for myself. people always have debts, i could still afford a holiday couldnt i (yeah sorta haha).
2ndly, i dont think you can judge someone for not being physically attracted to a person simply because they are outwardly ugly. this is why i feel so strongly that it is a necessity for me. i know i would never want to date or marry someone as ugly as me, it would be daft and selfish to wish someone to "overlook" and "overcome" this.
ive met people ive found "ugly" and unattractive before, and fallen in love with them , and realised their features can be attractive, but i just see myself as "way too far out there on the ugly scale", practically. im sickenenly convinced of it, and i can justify and defend it against any general "they'll like you for who you are". you've gotta be something DAMN special (rich or just plain awesome) to compensate for something like this, and im not that person
|
my other thread was better "kill"
i honestly have no fucking idea what i was talking about. sounds like a game but no game ive been playing....
heres the pic that i somehow didnt manage to upload to that other thread
its on-topic haha
|
listen stop worrying so much on your looks, you look great and your girlfriend probably thinks that way too
|
On January 06 2010 09:23 Bosu wrote:Pretty much every time I go to a party or bar somebody says I look like Demetri Martin. It's mostly because we have similar noses. Looks sorta like a big hawk beak to me. Sorta goofy looking, but I don't think I would ever want to have surgery to make it look more normal.
nice pic, thanks for it and your comment.
|
Your girlfriend is gorgeous
|
On January 06 2010 09:37 Saturnize wrote:
Your girlfriend is gorgeous
yeah she is .. and you dont need a nose job haha.. it fits your head. live with it =) just build up the confidence.. even though you probably dont need to with a girl like that
|
|
|
you know wats better than a 2-pronged attack
a 3-pronged attack
|
On January 06 2010 09:37 Saturnize wrote:
Your girlfriend is gorgeous
Seriously - you scored a beautiful woman - obviously the nose isn't a problem.
|
Here is MY two pronged attack:
Less holidays in rome, more saving for nosejob?
Usually the more plastic surgery you get the more you feel you could 'touch up' other features... I'd just try to make peace with your looks now instead.
|
With a woman like that, you obviously don't need a nose job.
|
Your girlfriend is so hot.
|
thats an interesting notion equaoh, but how serious are you when you say that? deadly serious?
i like the rest of my face. i'm not saying "oh i hate my self im so ugly". im saying "i hate my nose, i have a direly elongated septum (right word?) and my nose is also bent, and i'd be happy (actually be happy!!!!!!) if it was fixed." i honestly love my eyes and my face and have always said, to strangers and to friends, "if i got a nose job then i would actually be, what i consider, good looking."
NOTE TO MODS AT THIS POINT
i know this thread seems weird and whiney and attention seeking, but please pm me before making any conclusions and closing it. i specifically spent fucking ages uploading these pictures to add some proper interesting content so this could stay open and address the other issue. this is not a "cry for attention" but the only way i can possibly bring up this particular topic (nose job) and have my say (which sounds whiney) with a decent audiance (general forum) without it being instantly closed for being shit. it is , as i said initially, a thread to receive comments, whatever they may be (as all threads are to be)
|
Generally, people will avoid telling someone they look bad in a certain way. Your nose is very disproportionately large for your face. I'd say your nose is worse than 95%-99% of the general population. I do not think getting a nose job is the right option. Generally, they don't work very well and you end up looking even more freakish. The natural desire is to try to conform. However, life is very short and you only get one. So just realize life can be fucked up, and it is very unfair. The worse thing you can do is dwell on your loss.
Establish you have a big nose, and move on. Be different. Enjoy the limited time you have of life; you may live 80 years on Earth, but you will be dead for an infinite amount of time afterward, then this whole nose thing will be meaningless. Don't let people know you are insecure about it also. Then, they know your weakness and will capitalize on it. Once you establish in some way you are inferior because of your nose your relationships will go sour.
|
Everyone tells me I have a big nose - But I don't give a fuck.My whole family, some of my friends pay me out about it. It isn't a big deal dude.
Your unique features give you character, unless your nose is giving you breathing problems or whatever I don't see the point in getting a nose job, since you wanted opinions of the general populace - I would lose respect for someone if I found that they got any sort of face-job for purely aesthetic reasons.
|
You should shape your face to fit your nose instead.
P.s. i have a big nose too, well i have a big bump on the bridge between my eyes and its np
|
your gf is hot why are you bitching
|
You don't see this every day.
+ Show Spoiler +You look like a vampire in this one with the hair and pale face, wearing a team shirt of a professional starcraft team, with Pinocchio's hand on your crotch.
edit: eating an icecream
|
On January 06 2010 10:41 decafchicken wrote:
You should shape your face to fit your nose instead.
P.s. i have a big nose too, well i have a big bump on the bridge between my eyes and its np
thanks for the other replies, ill address them tomorrow
in response to this, "you should shape your face to fit your nosse instead" im not sure what you mean
but because i totally misread what you said, i thought of something ive thought of for a while
How does a persons appearance shape their personality?
have you ever met one, or one hundred people, and been able to tell "quite often" what their personality is like (in general) based souly on their physical appearance?
fat girls, for instance,...in britain they are very often one of 2 things. fat and loud and obnoxioius and overwhelming, or fat and meek.
goodlooking people.....they are often confident and whatever their personality is, it is well shown and either love it or hate it you know you're seeing their true self, because they have less issues (eg physical issues) and therefore are more confident people, even if theyre assholes (not saying they all are by any means)
anyone experience this? (note these are just whimsical examples, perhaps you have some better ones)
a related note, it is said often in "dating guides" that people do, or should, aim for a mate who is similar in (physical) appearance. this is relevent to what i just said.
|
It's hard to even tell if you have a big nose by those pictures, we would have to see one from the side. I wouldn't suggest getting a nose job unless it really bothers you, or you get harassed about the size of your beak all the time. I'm Italian and thus have a fairly big nose myself, but AFAIK it does not get stared at, nor do others comment on the size so I don't really worry about it.
|
On January 06 2010 10:47 Grobyc wrote:You don't see this every day. + Show Spoiler +You look like a vampire in this one with the hair and pale face, wearing a team shirt of a professional starcraft team, with Pinocchio's hand on your crotch. edit: eating an icecream
haha god at university recently i looked down at my hands and thought "holy motherfucking christ im sooo pale, i honestly look like a zombie". offtopic i know, just replying to your comment 
|
On January 06 2010 10:56 Salv wrote:
It's hard to even tell if you have a big nose by those pictures, we would have to see one from the side. I wouldn't suggest getting a nose job unless it really bothers you, or you get harassed about the size of your beak all the time. I'm Italian and thus have a fairly big nose myself, but AFAIK it does not get stared at, nor do others comment on the size so I don't really worry about it.
i somewhat agree that if you want to see the full force of my nose you need to see a side view. the middle line of my nose, i think its called the "septum" or "sternum", extends about an inch below the rest of the nose. this is the part i want cut off and doing so should give me a normal nose (except from the bendyness, but ya  ) .
for those really interested, i have always thought my nose affects my voice. i have absolutely no grounding in this apart from suspiscion. i have an EXTREMELY "nasal" voice - think 14 year old american boy (im well past the age of maturity). im not exactly a person you cant take seriously because of his terribly nasal comical voice....but im close enough to care.
sometimes i purposelly put on a london accent just to try to hide it. sad but true. as i said, i honestly dont know if this is anything to do with my nose, but i do have a very "nasal" voice, and "nasal" means nosey, right? just another thing to throw out there
|
Yeah, that would be your septum.
This would be your sternum:
+ Show Spoiler +don't really want to cut that off :D
EDIT: and yeah, that would be the proper description of a nasally voice lol. Also I put on a British accent when I have customers at work when I get bored :p
|
On January 06 2010 10:09 biomedical wrote:
NOTE TO MODS AT THIS POINT
i know this thread seems weird and whiney and attention seeking, but please pm me before making any conclusions and closing it. i specifically spent fucking ages uploading these pictures to add some proper interesting content so this could stay open and address the other issue. this is not a "cry for attention" but the only way i can possibly bring up this particular topic (nose job) and have my say (which sounds whiney) with a decent audiance (general forum) without it being instantly closed for being shit. it is , as i said initially, a thread to receive comments, whatever they may be (as all threads are to be)
That's exactly what the blog section is for. Next time post there instead.
|
On January 06 2010 10:47 Grobyc wrote:You don't see this every day. + Show Spoiler +You look like a vampire in this one with the hair and pale face, wearing a team shirt of a professional starcraft team, with Pinocchio's hand on your crotch. edit: eating an icecream
oh god pointing out that made me laugh really hard out loud
no offence to the OP, just those things that grobyc pointed out are really funny
|
On January 06 2010 09:26 biomedical wrote:
paying the debts is generally a life long thing, i dont know really why i brought it up other than to feel even more sorry for myself. people always have debts, i could still afford a holiday couldnt i (yeah sorta haha).
This is a bad mentality to have for debts, trust me.
I paid mine off because I was tired of them sucking most of my paycheck away. You'd be able to afford three times as many holidays with your debts paid off, it works wonders. The only debts I ever want to have is paying a Car and a House off...NOTHING else.
|
Braavos36379 Posts
You can remake this as a blog, just control+copy your OP exactly. Takes 10 seconds.
|
On January 06 2010 11:41 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 10:09 biomedical wrote:
NOTE TO MODS AT THIS POINT
i know this thread seems weird and whiney and attention seeking, but please pm me before making any conclusions and closing it. i specifically spent fucking ages uploading these pictures to add some proper interesting content so this could stay open and address the other issue. this is not a "cry for attention" but the only way i can possibly bring up this particular topic (nose job) and have my say (which sounds whiney) with a decent audiance (general forum) without it being instantly closed for being shit. it is , as i said initially, a thread to receive comments, whatever they may be (as all threads are to be) That's exactly what the blog section is for. Next time post there instead.
honestly i dont know what the general forum is for. 90% of threads there blow chocolate ass crumpets into my face the second i click on them. i intended this to be a high content general forum post, and didnt want it to be a personal blog post, and this is what we have. i know if Energies had made his blog thread in General it would have been a resounding success, but he wanted to keep everything together in his personal section. i don't have that desire, and so you now have pictures of my trip to rome and a side-story about plastic surgery accompanying inane crap like "british national executed for drug trade" (WHICH by the way us brits are SICK TO DEATH of hearing about), and a video of the worlds tallest building, which i literally showed to my mother 4 hours ago and got the response "oh i saw that firework display on the news 2 days ago, if you didn't live in a hole you would have seen it earlier too". so ya, mr general forum, just because a thread happens to be about someone from teamliquid doesnt mean it belongs in a blog.
what im saying is, just because something is a personal experience, it doesnt necessarily have to go in a blog.
|
hahhaha lmfao 2 pronged attack haaaaaa
dude u look like a vampire haaahaha no wonder u got such a hot gf i bet she loves twilight too. u a boss!
|
Snet
United States3573 Posts
Honestly, if it will improve how you feel about yourself and life, go ahead and do it.
|
is it just me that see a perfectly normal nose in the pictures?
|
On January 06 2010 11:57 superjoppe wrote:
is it just me that see a perfectly normal nose in the pictures?
It looks normal to me in eveyr picture except the pinochio one. That one it looks odd. Althoughit might not be the nose, it's jsut what I'm focusaed on because you said it..
And.. omg hot girlfriend..
|
No one will notice your nose because they will be too busy looking at the girl next to you.
|
On January 06 2010 12:16 Ian Ian Ian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 11:57 superjoppe wrote:
is it just me that see a perfectly normal nose in the pictures? It looks normal to me in eveyr picture except the pinochio one. That one it looks odd. Althoughit might not be the nose, it's jsut what I'm focusaed on because you said it.. And.. omg hot girlfriend..
Yeah the nose looks long and wooden in that pic
On January 06 2010 10:56 biomedical wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 10:41 decafchicken wrote:
You should shape your face to fit your nose instead.
P.s. i have a big nose too, well i have a big bump on the bridge between my eyes and its np a related note, it is said often in "dating guides" that people do, or should, aim for a mate who is similar in (physical) appearance. this is relevent to what i just said.
confidence > shape of nose. just be confident ~.~
and studies show that people may date people uglier/hotter then them but end up being committed to someone that is judged as similar to their level of attractiveness in the end. yay useless college communication class
p.s. your girl is smokin hot quit worrying --;
|
The problem is not your nose, its the fact that you are worried about it.
|
agh, wrote a 18 line reply but it deleted
|
On January 06 2010 11:52 biomedical wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 11:41 SonuvBob wrote:On January 06 2010 10:09 biomedical wrote:
NOTE TO MODS AT THIS POINT
i know this thread seems weird and whiney and attention seeking, but please pm me before making any conclusions and closing it. i specifically spent fucking ages uploading these pictures to add some proper interesting content so this could stay open and address the other issue. this is not a "cry for attention" but the only way i can possibly bring up this particular topic (nose job) and have my say (which sounds whiney) with a decent audiance (general forum) without it being instantly closed for being shit. it is , as i said initially, a thread to receive comments, whatever they may be (as all threads are to be) That's exactly what the blog section is for. Next time post there instead. honestly i dont know what the general forum is for. 90% of threads there blow chocolate ass crumpets into my face the second i click on them. i intended this to be a high content general forum post, and didnt want it to be a personal blog post, and this is what we have. i know if Energies had made his blog thread in General it would have been a resounding success, but he wanted to keep everything together in his personal section. i don't have that desire, and so you now have pictures of my trip to rome and a side-story about plastic surgery accompanying inane crap like "british national executed for drug trade" (WHICH by the way us brits are SICK TO DEATH of hearing about), and a video of the worlds tallest building, which i literally showed to my mother 4 hours ago and got the response "oh i saw that firework display on the news 2 days ago, if you didn't live in a hole you would have seen it earlier too". so ya, mr general forum, just because a thread happens to be about someone from teamliquid doesnt mean it belongs in a blog. what im saying is, just because something is a personal experience, it doesnt necessarily have to go in a blog.
General is for stuff of general interest, blogs are for attention whoring and personal stuff.
The China thread seems to be more about drugs/drug laws in China than that one specific incident, and the Dubai thread has plenty to discuss regarding excess, overdevelopment, the effects of the current economy, and the pissing contests rich people have. :p
|
Your gf is hot why do you want surgery?
|
i see, so plastic surgery and rome are as personal as i have made them (no matter how hard ive tried (and somewhat succeeded) to make public and popular these topics)? i get your point. general forum is for stuff of general interest. generally, no one is interested in MY plastic surgery or MY trip to rome, but people are generally interested in some news that goes on in northern island. generally, i see what you're getting at here. but honestly, i dont see why you're on my back for this. the general forum has always been about people submitting stuff they think - or hope - will interest the general population, even if it is a select group of people from that general crowd.
i made this thread to display some pictures of rome "in general" and i also made it to discuss the topic of plastic surgery and ugliness amongst men "in general". just because myself happens to be a focal point "right now" in this thread doesnt mean i haven't set up an interesting topic for general discussion. really...
|
On January 06 2010 13:25 GreEny K wrote:
Your gf is hot why do you want surgery?
will you stop going on about the girl, as if that has anything to do with how i feel about myself or will feel about myself in the future???? i'm not freaking 19, if you were any older you'd know that long lasting relationships are based on a combination of factors which include awesomness AND BEING PHYSICALLY SEXY
|
Dude. you don't need a nose job.
You got an MBC Hero shirt. That totally pwns a nose job.
|
On January 06 2010 13:36 biomedical wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 13:25 GreEny K wrote:
Your gf is hot why do you want surgery? will you stop going on about the girl, as if that has anything to do with how i feel about myself or will feel about myself in the future???? i'm not freaking 19, if you were any older you'd know that long lasting relationships are based on a combination of factors which include awesomness AND BEING PHYSICALLY SEXY
men sicken me. let me reverse the roles for a second.
"you are hot, why do you want a better personality? your boyfriend will always love you."
HELLO???? men and women will tire of one another nomatter what. if the personality is great but the looks are shit, then the relationship wont last. if the looks are amazing and the personality is shit, the relationship wont last.
men think they're so awesome because they win their girl thru their "personality", and love their girl thru "looks". what would happen if YOU were a girl, and your looks started to dwindle, and your personality remained the same? your boyfriend would fucking leave you, the way most of you seem to think.
ugh i can't be bothered to actually get into this, just know that for women and for men, for a long term relationship (ie mutual life love) both looks and personality are equal in value.
|
On January 06 2010 13:42 leejas wrote:
Dude. you don't need a nose job.
You got an MBC Hero shirt. That totally pwns a nose job.
best post so far
|
you have the same nose as stepthen fry, why don't you take this chance to write to him and ask why he never had nose surgery?
|
Im rather friends with a funny nosed guy than a wimp whos too concerned of their nose giving wrong impression of their personality.
Man up, forget the surgery, and succeed at life.
|
prob get those teeth a little whiter before id consider a nose job... they could always fuck it up and you'd end up paying 3.5k and have a shittier nose.
|
On January 06 2010 09:08 biomedical wrote:
first i want to show you some of my pix from my recent 5 night holiday to rome
Okay go.
the second prong to this thread is an issue that some of you might be aware has been bugging me since the age of 17. i have it in my head that my life will never be complete until i have a nose job and fix my (to me) horrifically ugly outward appearance.
this haunts me pretty much daily and has done all my life. i could go into details but just use your imagination how this affects my life in general.
what i really want to know from this huge community of men is comments in regard to this matter - ugliness, and plastic surgery. do you have any experience with it?
are YOU ugly? do you want surgery?
I'm probably ugly and have a big nose, but it doesn't really matter much. I think when we are young we get complexes for the dumbest stuff because it was an excuse to be picked on at that age when children are brutal to each other, but once you're an adult, at least for me, I feel like most of the "information" from the wake of that wave is just nonsense, and even the half-truths are prone to change. I think plenty of hot guys have a nose like yours, and while you aren't 10/10 all the time, you're not repulsive or anything, and I can see plenty of women being attracted to someone with your exact face, it's just a matter of things like hair, facial hair, muscles, wallet, and personality (probably in that order). Now I'm only talking about attraction which IMO can work in a very shallow way so don't take it personally. After all this is about your appearance right?
See if you had this pic on a myspace account you'd get plenty of whore myspace women saying dumb things to you.
ditto
Okay so here, you're more a normal guy, not as above average as in the other two pics. But, you still got that "foreign" look about you. Maybe pick up an accent, go to the U.S., or pretend you're a cousin of a Prince. But still you could pull off plenty of hot looks even if this is how your face looks all the time. I really don't see what the problem is at all. I think it's all in your head tbh.
In this pic, you got the red eye, and that's not a good smile. So this is your "worse", but again I can see turning this around regardless of the nose, and furthermore, changing the nose wouldn't really fix anything imo. All in your head.
Normal dude. Normal. No one thinks "nose"--nobody. Not in the U.S. anyways.
I don't see it. Play a sport and you'll be some hot guy. Join the army or w/e.
|
Don't waste your time. A nose job will only make you look good ...temporarily. Exhibit A: Michael Jackson.
Debts. Clear it off ASAP. You'll feel much better.
what would happen if YOU were a girl, and your looks started to dwindle, and your personality remained the same? your boyfriend would fucking leave you, the way most of you seem to think.
First of all,
are YOU a girl?
Second of all,
they put on make up... I guess you can do it too but stop fiddling with your nose.
Last of all,
are you sure that is the way most of us seem to think? Don't forget this is the Internet. But what is sure here is that most of us here are not in a relationship. Your reasoning is horrible. Listen to the advices in this thread.
|
your nose is fine, stop caring about what everyone else thinks, and focus on yourself. While looks will get the attention of a girl, your personality will keep you with her. Confidence is more important, and they always have the chance of fucking up.
If you want an opinion, talk with a friend or even your girlfriend about it, see how they feel and discuss it with them.
|
Anyone else beginning to think this is just a troll?
He's getting mad that we are complimenting him on his girl. Wtf..
Also, I forget who, but someone else mentioned teeth, and I'd have to agree. Your teeth are far more noticeable then your nose..
|
i have perfect teeth, theyre not up for debate 
|
life's too short to blog about your imperfections on a starcraft message board ^^
|
On January 07 2010 07:21 biomedical wrote:i have perfect teeth, theyre not up for debate
They look gross as shit in the pinochio pic.
|
On January 07 2010 12:47 Ian Ian Ian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2010 07:21 biomedical wrote:i have perfect teeth, theyre not up for debate They look gross as shit in the pinochio pic.
This. Plus you kinda look like a vampire / like you've not been outside in a few months. Deal with those before you get a nose job. They're cheaper.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9317/dsc00040jh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/379/dsc00110yj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2144/dsc00119rj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4724/dsc00147ig.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4246/dsc00150m.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6849/dsc00168b.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2626/dsc00177mh.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4317/dsc00292w.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9997/dsc00343u.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6859/dsc00367o.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/739/dsc00382m.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.cosmopoetica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/dmartin.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6010/hhahahaha.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://iaks-www.ira.uka.de/home/haimerl/seminar/sternum.gif)
