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On December 20 2009 08:31 lac29 wrote:
All these arguments about audiophile equipment is stupid unless you've spent a considerable amount of time actually demoing all the equipment yourself which few people in the general population have. I don't trust anyone who hasn't actually listened to the equipment they have an opinion about ... and there tends to be a TON of people like this everywhere in all parts of the internet.
Simply reading about stuff and trying that one Shure E530 flagship IEM once in your life, and impulse buying that Senn HD650 doesn't make one/you an expert in all things audiophile.
Thus I think these articles are silly. Just tell people to actually try the audio equipment and make all our lives easier that way. (and yes, it's hard to demo everything, but just tell them to do their best ... there are certainly ways to try out headphones, amps)
If you read what I said, I don't advise any specific headset. I said the headset I own only as an example of something that's typically claimed to require an amplifier, but really doesn't.
Doing random full sight demos is worthless. It's like answering a math test with all the answers on a second page right beside you. That's why I advise people to look for palpable characteristics like comfort and convenience, as apposed to fooling themselves with reviews or 10 minutes demos. I never said to buy any kind of equipment, I just said to be wary of myths about equipment.
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I should clarify ... it's more about the banter between Wangsta etc. Your article is fine in itself.
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On December 19 2009 12:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 12:01 Chef wrote:
there is no art form that is inherently bad
That's simply not true.
for example, poetry.
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No one?
Are expensive DACs worth the money?
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Baa?21242 Posts
On December 20 2009 11:11 Loser777 wrote:
No one?
Are expensive DACs worth the money?
This is really up to you decide. Will you be able to perceive enough of a difference to justify spending X dollars? If yes, then yes. If no, no. It's a question that only you can answer :\
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If you do extensive research on what DAPs do in relation to the capacity of the human ear, and don't find anything, I'd say don't spend your money. My guide is based on what I've found, but of course I'm not omniscient. I haven't found anything except anecdotal evidence, so at this point in time I'd say it's negligible. I've been told many times that it isn't the DAC that matters. But then again, those same people told me it's the amp that matters, which further research suggest against (especially when I entered realms outside financial interest).
I broke my rule about replying to my own threads, and I really regret it. The realm of my knowledge is basically contained in my OP... If you misunderstand it I can't help you.
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which artforms are inherently bad?
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On December 20 2009 10:48 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 12:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On December 19 2009 12:01 Chef wrote:
there is no art form that is inherently bad
That's simply not true. for example, poetry.
Apparently you haven't read any of Trozz's posts.
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To Chef: DACs have not been "figured out". Even the highest end $5000+ DACs are between 21-22bit (yes, with any combination of multi-million dollar equipment, more than 24bit is useless for playback). I have enough trouble with your assumption that people should use headphones to listen to music. This is so wrong. I will admit, headphones are a low-budget solution better than <$200 speakers, but if you want to be pretentious, use my setup (Adam S2A speakers, Apogee Electronics Mini-DAC, M-Audio Audiophile 192 sound card. Cabling is mid-high end stuff). Be a proper snob.
On December 19 2009 12:20 Xeofreestyler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 12:14 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On December 19 2009 12:01 Chef wrote:
there is no art form that is inherently bad
That's simply not true. Can you prove your statement?
Fecal sculpting.
On December 20 2009 11:11 Loser777 wrote:
No one?
Are expensive DACs worth the money?
Depends - if you have a sound card with a digital output, good speakers, and quality cabling, then yes... but try them out first. I can recommend Lavry's DACs, but balancing out the "feel" of the components of your audio chain is critical. If your audio equipment sounds overly clinical, than a warmer DAC might help offset that. This is no easy decision, as the good stuff starts at around $800.
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Not going to get into the audiophile discussion going on this thread but I have to say that I enjoyed this OP immensely. I don't consider myself a hardcore audiophile but I do enjoy music and listen to it everyday, and have spent a decent amount of money on stuff.
As far as speakers go, do you have anything to say with regards to orientation/positioning of satellites? Any positioning with regards to walls or anything like that? I have no idea about that sort of stuff but I think things like that might have a difference.
Also I bought the Bose QC15 headphones a short while ago. I've heard countless times that bose is a terrible company for headphones, what do you think? I pretty much only bought it because I was going to be on an overseas flight a week later and I tested out the sound cancellation and it worked awesome. What headphone would you recommend (anything up to $500 or so), as a standalone (no noticeable need for an amp or anything like that)? Earphones? (with priorities being sound quality, sound cancellation, comfort, i.e. I hate the ones that are just bulky and weird like some bang and olufsen ones).
One more thing, I have lower-end Shure earphones and have had them for about a year now. I always wrap them around my ipod and now they're slightly broken. I think basically where the cable starts after the input plug has been bent or stretched too much and now i get static or only half sound (i.e. instrumental but no vocals, very very choppy etc.) unless I physically push in the cable or something. Was wrapping the cable a really bad idea and something I should never do or is this like natural cable wear and tear? In any effect, the earphones come with a two-part cable piece (one direct input + earphone cable, another is an extension cable) and so only the extension is affected. Would you know off hand how much it would be to replace it and the ease of replacement, or would you recommend just getting a newer pair of earphones anyway (which is also why I asked your recommendation for earphones).
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with bose, other than the fact that they are overpriced (way overpriced). Bose also tends to be bass-heavy which isn't something that audiophiles like (they want neutral sound) which is why there are so many anti-bose posts. But if you can afford them, and if you like that kind of sound coloration, then they are great.
The sennheiser PXC250 and the audiotechnica ANC7 are the best sounding noise canceling headphones that I've heard (they both get really good reviews so it's not just my opinion). They're cheaper than equivalent Bose headphones and have better build quality too. Honestly though, you really should avoid noise canceling features in the first place, they are bad for sound quality and cause all kinds of hassles (having to replacing batteries, being easily breakable, etc.). I've never really liked the idea of a headphone ADDING sound to my music. The technology simply hasn't been perfected yet, they can't produce close to a 100% perfect inverse sound wave, thus there WILL be audible, unwanted noise artifacts.
The sennheiser hd25 is another option. It's not noise canceling, but it isolates so well that it's almost as good at blocking out ambient noise. On the other hand, the sound quality is considerably better than with any noise canceling headphone. AFAIK, the hd25 is sennheiser's flagship, highest model for portable headphones, but they are now dirt cheap (they recently went for $99 on sale on newegg, so you might find another deal like that soon)
If you want the highest quality sound in noisy environments, your best bet are IEM monitors, which will block out more sound than the best noise canceling headphones can. The extension cable for your Shure's can be replaced on ebay or by calling Shure and they are pretty cheap (should be under $10). Shure can also recable your IEMs for a fee (which might just be S+H if you have warranty).
If you buy the high end Shure IEMs, they have detachable cables so you shouldn't ever have that problem
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Thanks a lot that was really helpful :D
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As far as speakers go, do you have anything to say with regards to orientation/positioning of satellites? Any positioning with regards to walls or anything like that? I have no idea about that sort of stuff but I think things like that might have a difference.
I don't have the much knowledge on this area, but I've heard you need a really big room.
http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Back_Issues/
Is a great site that focuses pretty much entirely on speakers. They do ABX testing as much as possible, they do it legitimately (sound matching, no cheating) and they tell you criticisms of their own testing. Unlike some of the twats in this thread who have buyer's guilt, they don't need to satisfy any personal desire to think their stuff is better than everyone else's stuff.
On Bose... I don't know a thing about them, but if they're overpriced, it is a huge problem. Same reason you stay away from apple earbuds and SkullCandy and Dr. Dre.. You can get the same stuff for cheaper, because you're basically paying for fashion on top of what they are. With Sennheiser, you're probably paying for the name a bit too, but at least you know you're getting something that's built to last, and has had the R & D to support it.
Honestly though, I really don't like listing off specific headphones or brands or telling people what to get. If you want to read that, go to Head-fi and you'll get it in spades. What does it really tell you when you hear 50 different names of headphones? "Oh these have more bass then others" "This one has a 'veil!'" "IT WAS LIKE AN EARGASM THE FIRST TIME I HEAR THEM" "IF YOU DONT LIKE THEM AT FIRST, GIVE THEM 400 HOURS OF BURN IN LOL" Ahhhh! My recommendation is to try headphones out, and if you like them then okay. Try not to ask the price or let the person tell you what they're great at before you listen. My second recommendation is not to listen to anyone who lists their settup like it's bragging rights. Those people tend to have a hobby in audio equipment, not listening to music.
This is an excerpt of a PM I sent someone asking for advice on earphones awhile ago.. Generally the same as my advice on headphones, except less condensed.
+ Show Spoiler +My favourite earbuds were the Sennheiser MX550, but they don't make those anymore. I use the newer model, M560 now since my old ones befell tragedy.
There's a few things you should think about when you buy earbuds.
First is comfort. Your ear will adapt to most styles, but some are just so badly made/suited to your ears they will just fall out and feel bad. Some ear buds ONLY feel comfortable with foam ear pads, which kind of sucks since those deteriorate pretty quick, and you have to be careful just to make sure they don't fall off in your pocket. MX550 didn't need earpads, and I was grateful for that. MX560 does, and honestly I got screwed (some were supposed to come in the box) so I had to find some other ones that were already used... I got them to last a few months but not my ears are trying to adapt to the phones without pads because I can't find any.
The second is general sound quality. If you spend 10 dollars you're going to get crappy earbuds that start getting very distorted at some frequencies. You don't need super awesome sound quality that some idiots will brag about... You're using these earbuds on the bus and on the go... The noise of traffic and the city is going to make paying 200 dollars for earbuds ridiculous.
The third is the type of plating the jack has. Silver is best, because silver has the most conductivity of any metal. However, silver is not good for longevity especially if it's being plugged in and out a lot. So if you're spending like 40 bucks, Silver is ideal and you should just expect to replace it in a few years. If you spend a lot (on something like fullsize headphones) you want a gold plated jack. It's slightly less conductive, but it lasts A LOT longer and doesn't corrode very easily. FYI more conductivity means more volume at a lower output from your devices amplifier, which means less chance of hiss, and less chance of distortion.
Fourth... General build quality. This is something I can actually praise the MX560 for. The jack is protected by a very sturdy rubber that is not directly in contact with the cable the whole way (the cable goes into a little hole). It's really never given me trouble. The earbuds feel kind of cheap, but they're a pretty sturdy plastic. If you cover them up with those little foam pads like you're supposed to, they don't look bad. In general though... You get about what you paid for when it comes to build construction. 30 bucks is enough.
Fifth... Decision between In Ear Monitors (those cone things you jam in your ear) and regular earphones. In ear monitors often have noise cancellation... which is good. You won't hear people around you, and they won't hear your music on the bus. BUT... For a lot of reasons they're bad. They push and build up wax in your ear which will affect your hearing negatively and is hard to clean (there's a special place with vacuum). If you do go this route, you also need to excersise discipline with the volume. In a noiseless environment it's hard to tell what relative noise is, and it's tempting to turn the volume to dangerous levels (especially when you know you're not bothering anyone else). If you go earbuds, you need some discipline, but it's really easy. Just make sure you can still hear the bus and traffic normally in addition to your music, and you won't be damaging your ears or bother other people. Or at least, you won't be damaging more than a bus would (which I think needs like 10 hours to start getting dangerous... why I assume long distance buses have such good noise control, also trains).
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On December 20 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: At least they put out a product with fucking working firmware, unlike Cowon which audiophiles seem to lose their nuts over.
Wait what?
I've been with Cowon since 2006 (own a D2 and an S9), and every new firmware release is fucking fantastic. By the way, have you ever played with JetEffects on a Cowon player before?
edit: I think you should have put this in the general section.
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I never heard much bad about the S9, and I heard they eventually fixed the D2 which wasn't very good when it was first released. The O2 has been out a year now and everyone still says it doesn't do anything it claims to. My point was that Cowon uses its customers as beta testers. I'm only annoyed because I was super excited about the O2, given it's supposedly great compatibility, but all the reviews I read that weren't paid for say that it doesn't handle MKV properly (the most appealing format) and that the videos sometimes lag, and that the music portion of the player is awful since it has huge pauses between every song and isn't easy to navigate.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Cowon is god, Chef you're crazy :[
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On December 21 2009 00:22 Kazius wrote:
I have enough trouble with your assumption that people should use headphones to listen to music. This is so wrong.
Why is it wrong? A good headphone setup can be had for something like 1/10th the price of an equivalently good speaker setup (on average), and you also don't have to worry about room acoustics, listening position, etc.
if you want to be pretentious, use my setup
I agree with you that the most insane audiophile nuts I have seen are speaker nuts with multi-hundred-thousand-dollar systems rather than headphone nuts. I don't know that that's appealing.
On December 21 2009 01:18 PanoRaMa wrote:
As far as speakers go, do you have anything to say with regards to orientation/positioning of satellites? Any positioning with regards to walls or anything like that? I have no idea about that sort of stuff but I think things like that might have a difference.
It makes a significant difference but recommendations depend completely on your room. If you are really, really serious about this sort of thing there are people who can help you set up a room as a great listening environment. Otherwise, there are a few things generally true, like if you place subwoofers in corners it strengthens the bass response compared to placing them along walls, and if you toe the speakers in toward each other you'll produce a smaller "sweet spot".
Also I bought the Bose QC15 headphones a short while ago. I've heard countless times that bose is a terrible company for headphones, what do you think? I pretty much only bought it because I was going to be on an overseas flight a week later and I tested out the sound cancellation and it worked awesome. What headphone would you recommend (anything up to $500 or so), as a standalone (no noticeable need for an amp or anything like that)? Earphones? (with priorities being sound quality, sound cancellation, comfort, i.e. I hate the ones that are just bulky and weird like some bang and olufsen ones).
I have listened to the Bose QC series cans. All of them have the problem that they simply sound bad. There is Bose equipment that is good (some of their standalone line array speaker/amp units are pretty rad), but those particular headphones are not; they're harsh and have a very uneven frequency response. I think that point of view is fairly consistent with what I have seen others say about them.
IEMs are the way to go for noisy environments if your ears can stand them (they take getting used to, and some people just never do). I have a pair of Etymotic Research ER-4Ps that I picked up used for about $120 that work fantastically; they block about 23 dB worth of noise, which is enough that even on plane flights right next to the engine, I can listen to music at non-deafness-causing levels.
If you just cannot adjust to having things in your ear canal, there are some full-size closed cans that isolate OK. And, surprisingly, I've heard decent things about the "Beats by Dr. Dre" cans as a noise-cancelling option (though like all noise-cancelling headphones they suffer in quiet environments).
One more thing, I have lower-end Shure earphones and have had them for about a year now. I always wrap them around my ipod and now they're slightly broken. I think basically where the cable starts after the input plug has been bent or stretched too much and now i get static or only half sound (i.e. instrumental but no vocals, very very choppy etc.) unless I physically push in the cable or something. Was wrapping the cable a really bad idea and something I should never do or is this like natural cable wear and tear?
Any sort of repetitive stress on headphone cables can eventually begin breaking the wire filaments inside. Try to avoid tightly wrapping, bending, folding, tugging on, or otherwise straining your cables. Even with care they'll probably go out eventually, but it can be the difference between a year and ten years.
Oh yeah. This is a great magazine and everyone should read it, I'd forgotten about it for a while. For example, in http://theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf , lie #10 from the opening "the ten biggest lies in audio" article says much better what I was trying to say, and Chef got on my case about: hearing can be trained, and you can learn to notice/identify/appreciate details, but most people (including most audio nuts) haven't trained it, and beyond physical damage (e.g. tinnitus) and a few things (e.g. perfect pitch) that are somewhat genetic, everybody has pretty similar abilities. Be suspicious of "golden ears" claims until those making them demonstrate actual auditory acuity in a verifiable form. Unless you like wasting money.
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Personally I got a pair of Sennheiser CX 300-II for around $18 on amazon. Best purchase I ever made. These things really make listening to music a much more enjoyable experience.
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Again, I'm sorry about that  I think trained ears exist more in jobs with people in monitoring environments, that need to hear very faint sounds, rather than people just enjoying music, who will train themselves to listen to whatever they enjoy most. It's like people who say "I can hear him moving his fingers up and down the strings with these headphones!" Well... you could pretty much hear that with most headphones, it's just that you only started listening for it when someone told you 'you'll hear things in tracks you've never heard before.'
Anyway... All I wanted to say with my audio equipment section is don't spend money unless you've got a good reason to. My information about DACs comes from audio E.E.'s I've talked to and trust (ie, not people on the internet). I might be wrong, but again... The point is assume it's worthless until you've seen proof. I'm just saying I didn't find any, and anyone who tells me now better have the facts I've been looking for.
On December 21 2009 08:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Cowon is god, Chef you're crazy :[
Cowon seems like a hipster brand to me... I mean, it looks really cool, and all their stats are amazing on paper, but I haven't seen them make anything that justifies replacing a 3 year old ipod, which is kind of disappointing. Their A3 looks super cool, and I didn't hear any complaints, but they've discontinued it... I don't understand. This is the review I read on the O2 that really put me off, when I was practically planning to walk out the door and buy it that day link That was when it first came out... I looked to the forums to see if after a year of firmware updates it had been fixed, but it looks like it's still malfunctioning. S9 on the other hand I haven't read anything bad about... It just doesn't offer anything I don't already have or better. Less capacity, less responsive interface... You watch people doing reviews of touch players on youtube and it's almost funny how they're holding their tongue as they hit an icon once... then again... then 5 seconds later the menu finally changes, or scroll to the next album art, or whatever. I don't really care for the cowon version of the nano, iaudio, because I don't care about the nano version of the nano...
In any case... I tried to be very neutral in my OP about brands. If you like cowon and you can deal with them, then fine. Cowon just doesn't seem right for me, especially after being interested in the AMP3 so long which has a similar philosophy of using it's customers as beta testers (thankfully I just eventually asked for a refund after reading 100s of posts say "It's amazing sound quality! but it hisses... please fix! and the menus suck... and the interface is generally crap... and it's dying" hahaha... so much denial. I have a million times more confidence in Cowon than hisound, but I just don't want to go thru the agony of paying 350 dollars for something that doesn't work exactly how I want it to.
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I'm getting JVC HA-RX700 as my first pair. Did extensive online comparisons with other models in my budget range. These were the most positively reviewed pair I found. Hopefully going off other people's opinions won't disappoint me, seeing as I couldn't find a way to test them out in person.
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EPT
