One person who is better at what they do than anyone who has ever walked the earth. One legend. One icon. One, who is the greatest of all time.
GiYom
ElkY Mondragon PJ
This is the Starcraft's pantheon. This month, the debate begins, is HE the one?
On December 07 2009 08:48 Jaedong wrote: Idra, he’s great at LANs, online, and tournaments. No one else can say that. No one.
On December 07 2009 08:48 Klazart wrote: Imagine the world’s best Starcraft player, winning the world’s biggest tournament. That’s just awesome.
On December 07 2009 08:48 F91 wrote: I never thought I would see a pro win this tournament, so if Idra does it, he may be the best player of all time.
At age 19, Greg Fields has already achieved A+ rank on ICCup. Now, he has the chance to take down the big one, to capture $10000, and to stake his claim that he is the best foreigner who ever lived. "This is the biggest moment of my career. You don’t get too many opportunities like this, and if I play my game, I like my chances." - Idra
Between Idra and immortality, stand 47 men, each hoping etch his name into Starcraft history, including a Starcraft veteran making his return trip to the big league. "I’ve been here before, now I want to win it all." - Draco
A British ICCup regular looking for an unlikely payday.
"There’s a reason I made it this far, and there’s no reason I can’t make it all the way." - Kwark
A young gun who can rewrite the record books.
"I’m just a kid with a dream, and it may actually come true." - Kolll
And a mild-mannered Zerg who just happens to be the overwhelming fan favourite.
"Idra is incredible. Heck, all these guys can play, but I didn’t come here to lose." - ret
The Teamliquid Starleague Round of 48. 48 men. The Final 48. And if Idra can beat them all, he may become, the ONE.
Fanboy detected. Personally I'm all against IdrA but only because of the fact he acts like a fcking douche all the time. I'd be his #1 fanboy if he acted like a manner guy (ret for example) but he does not and that's why I hate him :< and I'm pretty sure he will not win this as he will get cheesed to death after ladder stage :>
xD on a lighter not, while idra DID reach A+, the number of players RIGHT under him is huge
White Ra sits right under him at A and with the best foreigners clawing to get to the top it'll be hard for the man Kolll is there, Drieven is there, as is sen, F91 and many others it'll be a rough road
On December 09 2009 07:58 Last Romantic wrote: Remember that Elky and Giyom actually performed well in Korean StarLeagues, which is an entirely different ballgame.
comparing Elky and Giyom's starleague runs vs the modern starcraft scene is a little foolish
Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy
vs...
Autum? H.O.T-Forever? Intotherain?
I know they were "good" at the time but with the current pool of programmers Idra is going to have a much much MUCH harder time cracking the SL's
On December 09 2009 07:58 Last Romantic wrote: Remember that Elky and Giyom actually performed well in Korean StarLeagues, which is an entirely different ballgame.
And the Korean Starleagues back then were also an entirely different ballgame compared to today
I have a hard time seeing Giyom or Elky own up Starleagues in 2009. It's all contextual
and yea, Giyom won Starleague, you can argue that he've been alcoholic that got lucky but I'd just wish to see Idra pull something like that, win Korean Starleague on Korean TV....
Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
kinda feels wrong to name anyone these days best foreigner ever i'm old and biased of course but it feels more right to say someone from the era when foreiners were on the same level as koreans, in other words, loooong ago =P
Winning an OSL tops about everything. Giyom couldn't do it again nowadays, sure, but back then he was at the peak of Progaming, not just of the foreign scene. Not even close.
On December 09 2009 08:07 Manifesto7 wrote: Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
but still the handicap that idra has to overcome is much different than the one Giyom had to overcome.
Back in his era starcraft was still budding. The talent pool was growing but still somewhat small. Now take all of the programmers or aspiring programmers. It's ridiculously huge. An average korean amateur could give Idra a run for his money. Star has evolved so much that it is almost an entirely different game from the one that Giyom played.
On December 09 2009 07:58 Last Romantic wrote: Remember that Elky and Giyom actually performed well in Korean StarLeagues, which is an entirely different ballgame.
And the Korean Starleagues back then were also an entirely different ballgame compared to today
I have a hard time seeing Giyom or Elky own up Starleagues in 2009. It's all contextual
That's true, but you probably have a similarly hard time seeing Idra own up Starleagues in 2009.
Grrr, Elky, Legionnaire, Nazgul, Assem, all have TV wins as progamers in Korea. This is a huge achievement. Modern players would crush them, I'm sure, if we could have an anachronistic match between players at their peak, but based on what was available to them at the time I don't think their achievements are significantly devalued.
It's also notable that players such as Grrr were at the top before replays were available (or vods of better players). Innovation should not be undervalued.
Nonetheless, I think all of these players (Idra included) are incredibly impressive.
On December 09 2009 08:07 Manifesto7 wrote: Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
but still the handicap that idra has to overcome is much different than the one Giyom had to overcome.
Back in his era starcraft was still budding. The talent pool was growing but still somewhat small. Now take all of the programmers or aspiring programmers. It's ridiculously huge. An average korean amateur could give Idra a run for his money. Star has evolved so much that it is almost an entirely different game from the one that Giyom played.
Wasn't Giyom one of the earliest progamers? His handicap was that there was no information he could use to improve. He invented quite a bit for himself. Giyom wasn't just some successful foreigner who went over to Korea to try to make it as a professional (in a modern context), he was there at the beginning!
Listen up everyone who bends over for ret. Idra is the Fcking MAN and everyone should know it! Is it so wrong to get pissed off when some toss player likes to gay you with dts/arbs/reavers/carriers all the time? No one likes to die to cheese, yet you all get mad when idra loses it?
On December 09 2009 08:33 Killphil wrote: Listen up everyone who bends over for ret. Idra is the Fcking MAN and everyone should know it! Is it so wrong to get pissed off when some toss player likes to gay you with dts/arbs/reavers/carriers all the time? No one likes to die to cheese, yet you all get mad when idra loses it?
Elky, Grrr and Slayer were considered as the really best players of the world.
Idra is really good and way better than them ( level is so much higher nowaday ) but he is still like a B teamer. Being the best foreigner is a somewhat laughable accomplishment compared to being #1 or even top 10 of the world and competing in Starleagues.
No offense Idra. TSL2 is great but even if you win it it isn't comparable. Elky, Grrr or Slayer might have won a TSL with Koreans during their prime now if Koreans were allowed to play i doubt that Idra could even get to top 48 lol.
However i think that Idra might be remembered as one of the best foreign players after 2003 with Draco, Mondi and Testie. And as the one with the worst manners :D
On December 09 2009 07:54 Crucifix wrote: Fanboy detected. Personally I'm all against IdrA but only because of the fact he acts like a fcking douche all the time. I'd be his #1 fanboy if he acted like a manner guy (ret for example) but he does not and that's why I hate him :< and I'm pretty sure he will not win this as he will get cheesed to death after ladder stage :>
Agreed.
Hope someone uses carriers and rapes his sneaky 3d ^^. Jk though, I like Idra, just Ret more tho.
On December 09 2009 08:35 Re-Play- wrote: idra will lose, and if he wins, is because he is training in korea he have advantage
Well gee way to go out on a limb and make a prediction there, buddy.
Yeah, its illegal to make predictions that make sense!
On December 09 2009 08:39 Salv wrote: The OP should be a movie trailer haha. Especially with those quotes, I envisioned that stock movie trailer voice. Pretty good.
Why can't people write Guillaume Patry? Respect the man enough to get his name right. It's one thing if you're korean and you're just trying to get his name right phonetically, it's another if you speak english (technically maybe french, but still...).
On December 09 2009 09:19 igotmyown wrote: Why can't people write Guillaume Patry? Respect the man enough to get his name right. It's one thing if you're korean and you're just trying to get his name right phonetically, it's another if you speak english (technically maybe french, but still...).
On December 09 2009 08:51 29 fps wrote: i agree with mani 100%
thus arguments about jaedong > boxer are also invalid because they are of two different eras
Bull. Just because they are in two different eras doesn't make them incomparable, people who say that are afraid of the results of the comparison. Pretty much everything is comparable given the right set of variables and adjustments to account for time differences.
On December 09 2009 08:51 29 fps wrote: i agree with mani 100%
thus arguments about jaedong > boxer are also invalid because they are of two different eras
Bull. Just because they are in two different eras doesn't make them incomparable, people who say that are afraid of the results of the comparison. Pretty much everything is comparable given the right set of variables and adjustments to account for time differences.
But that's exactly the problem - you don't know the "right" way to account for the differences.
You can talk about it sure. "JD would crush Grrr, but Grrr seems to have come up with all kinds of original play before anyone else without reps etc.." - this can be fun, but I don't see a way to draw any valid conclusions from that type of comparison.
Grrrr... is the best foreigner ever in my old heart. Not really going out on a limb there..
Testie may very well be the most well-rounded foreigner of all time. If you had to pick one foreigner who was great at everything---1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, ffa, bgh, fastest, ums etc etc I don't see how you could pick anyone else. He hacked against me in cloud ladder though so if you disagree that's fine.
On December 09 2009 08:07 Manifesto7 wrote: Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
but still the handicap that idra has to overcome is much different than the one Giyom had to overcome.
Back in his era starcraft was still budding. The talent pool was growing but still somewhat small. Now take all of the programmers or aspiring programmers. It's ridiculously huge. An average korean amateur could give Idra a run for his money. Star has evolved so much that it is almost an entirely different game from the one that Giyom played.
uh? i don't understand your argument. what about the handicap that giyom has to idra who has the advantages that the new era in sc has brought with it? each era has its own set of standards, and you're not understanding that. it's like saying a random physics professor today who since understanding the theory of newton and being equipped with the advantages of the time should be judged at a lower standard simply because science has advanced so much, therefore he is greater because he is disadvantaged by the fact that there's so much more to science now then before. that's not how it works
On December 09 2009 09:24 igotmyown wrote: We old old school starcraft fans forever remember him as Guillaume. Nobody ever called him Giyom before he went to korea.
You also can't for sure say Grr/elky Wouldn't own up in 09. Place them in their prime in todays game with the benefit of reps and the advanced strats and builds? Who knows. Its like Mani said it has to do with how you did in your Era, and Grr was top of the world not just foreigners. Also Slayer/NTT/Smuft/Asmody/Leg All very good players.
On December 09 2009 16:10 Slaughter wrote: You also can't for sure say Grr/elky Wouldn't own up in 09. Place them in their prime in todays game with the benefit of reps and the advanced strats and builds? Who knows. Its like Mani said it has to do with how you did in your Era, and Grr was top of the world not just foreigners. Also Slayer/NTT/Smuft/Asmody/Leg All very good players.
Grrr.. and Elky didn't keep playing because they knew poker was easier money. When they did play they practiced about 4 hours a day iirc (been awhile since I read his interview). I don't know about you, but I think that means they wouldn't have the work ethic it takes to succeed in the scene today. That said, yeah, they were definitely kings of their time, Korean or not.
On December 09 2009 08:07 Manifesto7 wrote: Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
Mani and Daaman put it best. Exactly what were you trying to achieve with this thread? An all out flame war?
In case you forgot, Greg got knocked out of every single tournament he entered. It didn't matter who he played. You could argue, well the eSTRO/CJ coaches broke down his gameplay and made him start from scratch. It's taken well over 10 months to see the results many had anticipated from IdrA.
Draco and NonY still pose a big threat. Don't forget, they were there too and they know what it takes. Not to mention, "Congrats for lpaying protoss."
On December 10 2009 06:01 CharlieMurphy wrote: Idra's weakness is early game skirmish and cheese.
I think it's more broad than that. He has difficulty innovating, which affects all stages of his game.
i don't think lack of innovation will necessarily hurt him.
you'd have to define "innovative". because idra play the most tested style, most economical style, the "best" style. so in that sense, "innovative" is anything that deviates from that, a slight less efficient strategy/tactic that will result in more swing in risk/reward.
so in that sense, why be innovative and take the risk when the most scientific method has been provided?
basically, playing like a robot is the most efficient, least risky and most rewarding.
just think of 2 axis, where X = risk, Y=reward
the best strategy, aka the most efficient, is one that maximize Y and minimizes X. I mean he might lose to a strategy that risk more than it could gain every once in a while, but in a long run, the most efficient style wins.
BUT i think what you are saying is a third dimension, we can call it Z-factor. be it game sense, clutch performance... that extra factor that seperate two players that might win about the same amount of games but that extra edge gives the win in the ace of a BO7, or pull off a clutch proxy in the MSL finals or something. basically the tilt that throws math outside the window.
On December 09 2009 08:07 Manifesto7 wrote: Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
but still the handicap that idra has to overcome is much different than the one Giyom had to overcome.
Back in his era starcraft was still budding. The talent pool was growing but still somewhat small. Now take all of the programmers or aspiring programmers. It's ridiculously huge. An average korean amateur could give Idra a run for his money. Star has evolved so much that it is almost an entirely different game from the one that Giyom played.
GiYoM had to do a lot more than just play StarCraft. He was one of the first to go to Korea to be a pro gamer, he had nothing and knew nothing. IdrA has been guided and given really good practice partners. GiYoM had to go over there with no guidance and start his own sponsorships and teams. He also helped Boxer jump start the scene, although Boxer did a lot more in those regards. Not to mention he won a Korean starleague and was the best player on earth for 2 years. I'd still call that a greater accomplishment. You just cant compare one era to another saying that a player just wasn't as good because he happened to win at that time when the skill level wasn't as high as today.
On December 10 2009 06:01 CharlieMurphy wrote: Idra's weakness is early game skirmish and cheese.
I think it's more broad than that. He has difficulty innovating, which affects all stages of his game.
The jury is still out on that one. He made huge improvements in the past year and now has solid mechanics and pretty much mastered "standard" play. Now he can start experimenting, talk to coaches and devise his own little twists on things. Greg is still very young and has lots of room to improve - we will have to wait and see how much. Either way, congrats to him for a great year.
On December 10 2009 06:01 CharlieMurphy wrote: Idra's weakness is early game skirmish and cheese.
I think it's more broad than that. He has difficulty innovating, which affects all stages of his game.
Maybe his play is not as 'flashy' as other progamers (or even foreigners if that). But I believe all these years he's been learning to master the Korean standard play, which is pretty much the foundation of everything else. You need a solid ground to experiment new strategies. I think that's the right way of doing it.
One who has sexy marine or muta micro but fails at everything else doesn't go as far as competitive Starcraft is concerned.
Excellent tongue-in-cheek OP. I'm not sure if I'm more horrified at the number of people who assumed it was meant seriously, or the number of people who agree with it and are serious.
Idra is more like the Cyborg in Carano vs Cyborg. He's been racking up tournament wins lately though and I wonder if he has surpassed Testie's accomplishments?
Why are we even talking about this. Clearly is GiYom. He was the first and actually accomplished stuff. Whats better winning a Korean starleague and being the best starcraft player in the world against all odds OR getting smashed by B-teamers????
On December 10 2009 06:01 CharlieMurphy wrote: Idra's weakness is early game skirmish and cheese.
I think it's more broad than that. He has difficulty innovating, which affects all stages of his game.
The jury is still out on that one. He made huge improvements in the past year and now has solid mechanics and pretty much mastered "standard" play. Now he can start experimenting, talk to coaches and devise his own little twists on things. Greg is still very young and has lots of room to improve - we will have to wait and see how much. Either way, congrats to him for a great year.
Here's the thing though. He's on the B team of a proteam. B teams do not do innovative things, they do not practice funny strategies, he has to play the same build, day after day, to get it down pat. It's not that he's not innovative, it's that CJ prevents him from even practicing these things.
On December 10 2009 06:01 CharlieMurphy wrote: Idra's weakness is early game skirmish and cheese.
I think it's more broad than that. He has difficulty innovating, which affects all stages of his game.
The jury is still out on that one. He made huge improvements in the past year and now has solid mechanics and pretty much mastered "standard" play. Now he can start experimenting, talk to coaches and devise his own little twists on things. Greg is still very young and has lots of room to improve - we will have to wait and see how much. Either way, congrats to him for a great year.
Here's the thing though. He's on the B team of a proteam. B teams do not do innovative things, they do not practice funny strategies, he has to play the same build, day after day, to get it down pat. It's not that he's not innovative, it's that CJ prevents him from even practicing these things.
Actually, if there's one person I could think of that will always play standard in the foreign scene, it's Idra. He's good at it and pretty much makes fun of anyone who doesn't do the same on a given map.
EDIT: Mind you, maybe it's all part of his plan to triple bunker rush ret in the TSL finals.
On December 09 2009 08:07 Manifesto7 wrote: Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
I think mondragon is the greatest player of all time if you consider how long he's been competing at the highest level and that he's a good sportsman. He's always been someone to look up not only gamewise but as a player in general. Ret is awsome but I think he's too new to be put as the greatest of all time. Idra may be good gamewise but he will never be great player in my eyes.
On December 09 2009 08:07 Manifesto7 wrote: Great players dominate in their respective eras. Greatness is not contingent on the ability to dominate in all eras. Giyom dominated his era, and therefore is an all time great. The level of play now has nothing to do with it. IdrA is not great now because he cannot dominate his era. All sports work this way.
hes a better player, but then again the skill level of SC:BW now can not be compared. i'm sure most B-teamers can win starleague if put in 2001.
idra is definitely not more accomplished. and it is this way with all sports, atheletes get stronger, more fit with time because of nutrition, workout techniques, equipments, etc.
On December 17 2009 02:53 BabyRhino wrote: i'm sure most B-teamers can win starleague if put in 2001.
A solid B player would be enough.
you could get away with being a D+/C- level player and win probably - the strategies on the different maps and the way the game "should be played" have changed quite a bit.
On December 17 2009 02:53 BabyRhino wrote: i'm sure most B-teamers can win starleague if put in 2001.
A solid B player would be enough.
you could get away with being a D+/C- level player and win probably - the strategies on the different maps and the way the game "should be played" have changed quite a bit.
Depends if you really are a C- or D+ capped player. I Definately think anyone in the B ranks would be own back then.
Yea but teach those back in those times the way the game is now, who knows what they could so with the current way the game is played.
And Leg should defiantly get more love, he beat some very good players in his time and the All-kill plus at once time he held the record for most reaver kills in a game.
Ok. I've been lurking TL forums for quite a while (mainly to watch vods and news), but all these threads about Idra being the best are getting kinda old, and to be honest, laughable as well. Note: I RARELY post.
This thread, in particular. Will Idra be "THE ONE?" Seriously, man, does that not sound just a bit retarded? Idra has been in Korea for well over a year now, and he is still the robotic little shit he was before he left. "OMFG BUT HE GOTZ A+ BLAH BLAH CRYCRYWAAAWAAHH" He himself admitted to newb bashing Koreans that no one else would play (yeah, the Koreans that White-Ra, without the one year experience in a progaming house was practicing against) Are you fucking kidding me? He LIVES IN A FUCKING PRO GAMING HOUSE! A house that is well knowing for producing strong players. Do you NOT think he's gonna get better than most foreigners?
Idra: You love to talk shit about foreigners and not knowing wtf they're ever gonna do... things like 2 Base Carriers. If you want I will find you a few PROGAMING VODS where the protoss goes for 2 base carriers. You say you're most likely to win this Tourney? I don't doubt you are, but if well I remember, not more than a week ago ret completely made you his bitch in FS... yes, you, who have been in a KOREAN PROGAMING TEAM for over a year... and yes, he, who has been in Korea for what... 2-3 months? Given that Ret gave you such an asswhooping and only having been in a korean progaming house for less than half the time you have been, leads me to believe one thing: YOU HAVE NO NATURAL FUCKING SKILL... hell, I highly doubt you even have a brain, getting owned twice in a row by the same cheese is something to be ashamed about. Or, wait... more recently...didn't Koll 2-0 you in WCG? Someone ask Koll if he's been in a korean progaming house for a year, please.
For the rest of you dumb dick riding bitches, here's a suggestion: Put ANY legit A rank foreigners, like White-Ra, Bratok, etc etc etc in Progaming houses for a year, and I guarantee that, not only will they contribute a shitload more to TL than Idra, but they will make him seem like a newbie anytime they play.
Ret is over there right now, right? I bet he gets A+ or higher on Iccup's next ladder with a lower loss percentage than Idra.
Natural Skill + Good environment > Any 19 year whiny motherfucker who acts like he's tough shit. Learn some humility. You're not as good as you think.
Last post until the idiocy level of these forums gets on my nerves again. Byebye. ^^
Edit: Before you decide to reply to this post, please make sure to actually read and understand what was written. The grammar may not be 100% perfect, but I believe I got my point across in an understandable enough manner. In essence: Refrain from making posts intended to shoot down my post, but instead end up reinforcing the point I am trying to make... sort of like jalstar did.
On December 18 2009 04:16 Arsis wrote: Ok. I've been lurking TL forums for quite a while (mainly to watch vods and news), but all these threads about Idra being the best are getting kinda old, and to be honest, laughable as well. Note: I RARELY post.
This thread, in particular. Will Idra be "THE ONE?" Seriously, man, does that not sound just a bit retarded? Idra has been in Korea for well over a year now, and he is still the robotic little shit he was before he left. "OMFG BUT HE GOTZ A+ BLAH BLAH CRYCRYWAAAWAAHH" He himself admitted to newb bashing Koreans that no one else would play (yeah, the Koreans that White-Ra, without the one year experience in a progaming house was practicing against) Are you fucking kidding me? He LIVES IN A FUCKING PRO GAMING HOUSE! A house that is well knowing for producing strong players. Do you NOT think he's gonna get better than most foreigners?
Idra: You love to talk shit about foreigners and not knowing wtf they're ever gonna do... things like 2 Base Carriers. If you want I will find you a few PROGAMING VODS where the protoss goes for 2 base carriers. You say you're most likely to win this Tourney? I don't doubt you are, but if well I remember, not more than a week ago ret completely made you his bitch in FS... yes, you, who have been in a KOREAN PROGAMING TEAM for over a year... and yes, he, who has been in Korea for what... 2-3 months? Given that Ret gave you such an asswhooping and only having been in a korean progaming house for less than half the time you have been, leads me to believe one thing: YOU HAVE NO NATURAL FUCKING SKILL... hell, I highly doubt you even have a brain, getting owned twice in a row by the same cheese is something to be ashamed about. Or, wait... more recently...didn't Koll 2-0 you in WCG? Someone ask Koll if he's been in a korean progaming house for a year, please.
For the rest of you dumb dick riding bitches, here's a suggestion: Put ANY legit A rank foreigners, like White-Ra, Bratok, etc etc etc in Progaming houses for a year, and I guarantee that, not only will they contribute a shitload more to TL than Idra, but they will make him seem like a newbie anytime they play.
Ret is over there right now, right? I bet he gets A+ or higher on Iccup's next ladder with a lower loss percentage than Idra.
Natural Skill + Good environment > Any 19 year whiny motherfucker who acts like he's tough shit. Learn some humility. You're not as good as you think.
Last post until the idiocy level of these forums gets on my nerves again. Byebye. ^^
Korean teams say that IdrA practices hard and is always on schedule.
When Flash lost to Kwanro did that prove he had NO NATURAL FUCKING SKILL? No, everyone loses Bo3's or even Bo5's sometimes no matter how good they are.
IdrA has won way more foreigner tournaments this year than anyone else and he regards A- Koreans on icCup as "easy wins". Say what you will about his personality but he's a good player.
EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_France.svg/22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png)
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png)
Mondragon![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png)
PJ
IdrA
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