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TvZ - The bane of my existance

Blogs > LuckyFool
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LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
November 30 2009 21:28 GMT
#1
ok TL I come to you today with a sad sad story.

My TvZ is easily 2-3 ranks lower level on iccup than my other two matchups. People have told me this is literally impossible and I have to be exaggerating, I'm not. C+ TvP's are nearly auto wins for me and C+ TvZ's are nearly auto losses its that bad.

I can play TvP and TvT games very solidly at B (pushing B+ at times even) levels. I have a few very very solid and good timing builds TvP and everything about that matchup flows so smoothly for me. TvT is a very rock paper scissors type matchup and definitely is more positional/decision based, all things that are very good for my style of play which is a pretty defensive macro based style.

During laddering for TSL I got to B- with stats around 45-10 and people were actually asking me if I
was going to try and make a run to qualify.... Sadly this is where the story takes the sad turn, at B-
I find (maybe it's bad luck?) way way more zerg users. I have a ridiculously hard time competing vs C
level zergs let alone B- so I get raped very sadly when I try to play a standard game vs zerg.

I continued on laddering (playing standard 80-90% of my games) but I'm now 50% ratio at C+ which honestly is quite horrible by my standards.

Why is this? Let's try to run through some stuff starting with a quick history on my background which may hold some answers...

I grew up playing on useast (from like 2004-2008, some of you may know this <3 ) where nobody played zerg (and if they did they wouldn't go mutas cuz no lan lat) so I became halfway good against lurker openings. And if they did go mutas their macro and overall mechanics were so bad I would lose a shitload of mnm but still be like 60 supply ahead and win the game easily.

These days it's all about 2 and 3 hatch muta ZvT and honestly my mnm micro vs mutas is a joke. I simply do not know how to effectively attack mutas without getting my forced raped. I am told to rally rax into main so troops don't scatter around and get raped but I find if I camp in my main a shitload of lings+muta attack at front door at nat while my forces are terribly out of place.

At times my mnm micro seems ok but I think it's more just the zerg having really bad muta micro.

Basically the point of this is my TvZ eventually evolved into where it is now which must be like watching a horrible comedy show for people who obs my regular TvZ. I still have the macro and run an average of 300apm/200eapm in the matchup but that's about all I can do. I have enough game understanding and BO knowledge that it sometimes carries me through TvZ but overall my foundation is really weak.

In my early days I never had a gosu zerg practice partner, I've had brief people but nobody who
honestly helped me in the matchup hardcore like some other people did for me in the other matchups. I also never got good practice with bio, mnm troops against good mutas.

Let's run though what sucks hardcore on a little more detailed level:

1. Building Placement. Building placement in TvZ is all about preventing the mutas. Turrets to
cover main minerals, nat minerals and your ramp/choke. I find I have very bad building placement with
nearly everything. turrets behind my mineral lines pretty much begs for ling snipes. Bunkers out of
position at nat, mnm running through buildings getting single filed and raped... Depots being thrown up all over the base messing up future rax and other buildings.

2. Overall mnm micro vs mutas. It's beyond sad. I try to group and hit and run but I accidentally
move command shit so much or let things run single file. I get raped so hard at the uphill ramp near
your natural on HBR it isn't even funny. Kawaiirice has been helping me a bit TvZ recently and
mentioned something about attacking in a way that it glitches the muta attack range or something, maybe looking into that shit more would be helpful... I've been really trying to get a deeper understanding of TvZ such as what the fuck to do when you scan and see den/spire at same time. Zomfg I hate that shit.

3. Getting a good build (bio based). Another problem I allowed to happen with my TvZ was never finding a good build that I could rely on. Sure I started taking games off high level players with mech builds and other cheesy 2 (and recently 4port) builds. but those are so easily countered when the zerg knows whats coming and if I play more than 2 or 3 games against the same opponent I found myself getting raped so ridiculously hard it was sad. Recently I'm "trying" to 1rax fe -> 4 rax and 1rax fe-> 3tank+vessel timing but my timing gets so horribly screwed by multiple factors. Like forgetting when to make natural gas and forgetting to research basic basic things like marine range upgrade.

4. Not missing depots. In TvP I had a huge problem at 52 supply right after my expo had been
running for a bit I would always get stuck hardcore at 52. I fixed this by incorporating a depot at my
natural to prevent dt and turret pickoff and/or bulldog attacks. Now this comes naturally and I find I'm not getting stuck at 52 anymore. But TvZ I miss depots at multiple times which isn't as easily fixed. Sometimes even at 36 which is stupid as shit. I miss depots most of the time when I am going to
make turrets. Right before turret timing I try to save around 300 minerals for the 6-7 turrets I
usually make but when I build turrets and then go back to macro I'm always supply stuck.

All of this needs to be improved if my TvZ is to get any better. I'll continue trying to improve but
it's so frustrating right now and there are such big temptations to just go back to a cheesy/allin
style but I really want to fundamentally fix my TvZ... From the bottom up which sadly is going to take a ton of work.

Starcraft in some ways reminds me of golf, you can never ever think of everything while you swing a club (keep your head down, follow through the ball, don't overswing, feet parallel to the target, swinging outside in for a draw, correct grip, correct body movement through the ball, more weight towards your left foot) you instead focus on one aspect at a time until everything becomes subconscious and it just happens when you do it.

Starcraft is alot about this especially with these kinds of problems I am having. What I will do moving forward is incorporate this type of thinking in my TvZ. I will go into each game focusing on ONE aspect that is weak such as trying to not miss a single depots throughout the game and primarily focusing on that only especially when I go to make anti muta turrets. Lots of small things to fix here but I know I have the foundation if I can fix these small things I can hopefully start doing halfway ok at TvZ above C+ levels.

Take care TL hopefully I can turn this sad sad story into a success story sometime in the future!

p.s thanks kawaiirice, freaky, toxic, octzerg and whoever else has given me advice/practice games in the past couple weeks <3 u all.

***
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
November 30 2009 21:33 GMT
#2
wanna trade

u teach me tvp and i teach you what not to do in tvz
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5282 Posts
November 30 2009 21:38 GMT
#3
Muta is the sole reason I've spent the past ~2months testing just how viable alternative openings are.
I experimented alot, and managed to make a good opening, only to find that it's almost identical to iloveoov's fake mech.

I like that opening.
My TvZ doesn't feel cheesy, as the mentioned opening is extremely flexible, and I made C level(pure TvZ) without bigger problems.
Now I'm trying another thing, we'll see how that goes.

(My bio TvZ is nowhere near C last time I checked)

But yeah, bio still holds the "the proper way to play TvZ" title, so it's noble to stick to it.
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-30 21:44:53
November 30 2009 21:43 GMT
#4
I can compete with higher level zergs with fake mech and other "non proper" ways to TvZ but I grew so tired of constantly living in fear TvZ. "I really hope this allin works." was pretty much how I felt throughout every TvZ.

I can play standard TvP and felt so confident on the other hand my TvZ was constant living in fear. I used to have success when I followed some good advice from ret, go into TvZ with a midnset to have as many troops as the physics of starcraft broodwar will allow. and you can repel anything zerg throws at you. Sadly my horrrible mnm micro prevents this from working for me. I need to just continue to practice mnm micro especially vs muta.

Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
November 30 2009 21:45 GMT
#5
1. 3. and 4. you can practice by playing vs comps where there's no pressure and you have the freedom to experiment and quit/start over immediately as you need. Just get general ideas from replays and copy/experiment from there.

2. just stim, right click towards muta and right click a muta and shift right click a different muta, and right click away as the muta escape over a cliff edge or something to avoid marine parades.

I've always found tvz to be relatively easy once you develop enough micro to avoid losing all of your marines at once to lurkers. Lurkers are far scarier to me than muta, but as a zerg I've had a good terran friend/rival for a long time now and had someone to base stuff on.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9173 Posts
November 30 2009 21:47 GMT
#6
On December 01 2009 06:28 LuckyFool wrote:

Like forgetting when to make natural gas and forgetting to research basic basic things like marine range upgrade.



You probably know the timing but throwing down your natural gas whenever you build your starport is an easy way to remember. GL with the mu, stick with the 1 rax fe and it'll come good eventually considering how strong the rest of your game is.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
iSiN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1075 Posts
November 30 2009 21:48 GMT
#7
2 port wraith every game imo

also you should make a run and just dodge zergs you're in a competition to win it get better later.
Grouty @HoN/PCKJ <--<333 || Jaedong Fan Cafe GFX
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
November 30 2009 21:51 GMT
#8
Teach me TvP/TvT I teach you my solid ass TvZ build that wins 90% of the time with a single hive timing push.
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-30 21:55:59
November 30 2009 21:54 GMT
#9
On December 01 2009 06:45 Nightmarjoo wrote:
1. 3. and 4. you can practice by playing vs comps where there's no pressure and you have the freedom to experiment and quit/start over immediately as you need. Just get general ideas from replays and copy/experiment from there.

2. just stim, right click towards muta and right click a muta and shift right click a different muta, and right click away as the muta escape over a cliff edge or something to avoid marine parades.

I've always found tvz to be relatively easy once you develop enough micro to avoid losing all of your marines at once to lurkers. Lurkers are far scarier to me than muta, but as a zerg I've had a good terran friend/rival for a long time now and had someone to base stuff on.


In single player I do not worry about the muta harass and the timing difference between 2 and 3hatch muta I can just focus on not missing depots and I don't miss depots.

Go into a real TvZ where there is a threat of mutas and I start missing depots left and right.

I have a bad habit of making things more complicated than they really are and over thinking. But I also just have a TvZ mental block right now which is difficult to overcome. Hopefully talking through shit here I can begin to get over it.
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
November 30 2009 22:05 GMT
#10
How is your TvT B level lol... mine is C+ at best <_<
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
bITt.mAN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Switzerland3693 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-30 22:06:22
November 30 2009 22:06 GMT
#11
All I can say is that Stylish is your friend, and is awesome at TvZ

It may be canned advice but it helps
BW4LYF . . . . . . PM me, I LOVE PMs. . . . . . Long live "NaDa's Body" . . . . . . Fantasy | Bisu/Best | Jaedong . . . . .
Necosarius
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Sweden4042 Posts
November 30 2009 22:06 GMT
#12
I've got the same problem, even tho I'm on a way lower level than you My TvP is D+/C-, TvT is a solid D+ and TvZ is like.. 1200 points O.o
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
November 30 2009 22:08 GMT
#13
Are you saying u have better TvT than me poke? ^_^
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-30 22:09:09
November 30 2009 22:08 GMT
#14
On December 01 2009 07:08 LuckyFool wrote:
Are you saying u have better TvT than me poke? ^_^


2-0 in decently long games would support that... but not necessarily lol
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
November 30 2009 22:12 GMT
#15
u can take games off me on bad days poke but we don't play enough to really know. Play me a bo3 or bo5 sometime and we can get a better idea.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
November 30 2009 22:14 GMT
#16
On December 01 2009 07:12 LuckyFool wrote:
u can take games off me on bad days poke but we don't play enough to really know. Play me a bo3 or bo5 sometime and we can get a better idea.

dodge afk hw
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
November 30 2009 22:16 GMT
#17
ok :D
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-11-30 22:25:51
November 30 2009 22:22 GMT
#18
ok bo5 sometime when we're both on.

there should be stakes too like if I lose I have to join mg. so I have extra motivation to play better, I always play better if its important.

not that mg is a bad team!!! I'm just a team dodger for some reason (always have been super picky when it comes to join teams)
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
November 30 2009 22:26 GMT
#19
LOL if you lose you have to join mG.
why should that be a punishment I wouldn't want to make you do that rofl
iunno I'll think about it o.o
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
November 30 2009 22:30 GMT
#20
nice ninja edit. too bad I can't edit posts from my phone
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
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