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ok TL I come to you today with a sad sad story.
My TvZ is easily 2-3 ranks lower level on iccup than my other two matchups. People have told me this is literally impossible and I have to be exaggerating, I'm not. C+ TvP's are nearly auto wins for me and C+ TvZ's are nearly auto losses its that bad.
I can play TvP and TvT games very solidly at B (pushing B+ at times even) levels. I have a few very very solid and good timing builds TvP and everything about that matchup flows so smoothly for me. TvT is a very rock paper scissors type matchup and definitely is more positional/decision based, all things that are very good for my style of play which is a pretty defensive macro based style.
During laddering for TSL I got to B- with stats around 45-10 and people were actually asking me if I
was going to try and make a run to qualify.... Sadly this is where the story takes the sad turn, at B-
I find (maybe it's bad luck?) way way more zerg users. I have a ridiculously hard time competing vs C
level zergs let alone B- so I get raped very sadly when I try to play a standard game vs zerg.
I continued on laddering (playing standard 80-90% of my games) but I'm now 50% ratio at C+ which honestly is quite horrible by my standards.
Why is this? Let's try to run through some stuff starting with a quick history on my background which may hold some answers...
I grew up playing on useast (from like 2004-2008, some of you may know this <3 ) where nobody played zerg (and if they did they wouldn't go mutas cuz no lan lat) so I became halfway good against lurker openings. And if they did go mutas their macro and overall mechanics were so bad I would lose a shitload of mnm but still be like 60 supply ahead and win the game easily.
These days it's all about 2 and 3 hatch muta ZvT and honestly my mnm micro vs mutas is a joke. I simply do not know how to effectively attack mutas without getting my forced raped. I am told to rally rax into main so troops don't scatter around and get raped but I find if I camp in my main a shitload of lings+muta attack at front door at nat while my forces are terribly out of place.
At times my mnm micro seems ok but I think it's more just the zerg having really bad muta micro.
Basically the point of this is my TvZ eventually evolved into where it is now which must be like watching a horrible comedy show for people who obs my regular TvZ. I still have the macro and run an average of 300apm/200eapm in the matchup but that's about all I can do. I have enough game understanding and BO knowledge that it sometimes carries me through TvZ but overall my foundation is really weak.
In my early days I never had a gosu zerg practice partner, I've had brief people but nobody who
honestly helped me in the matchup hardcore like some other people did for me in the other matchups. I also never got good practice with bio, mnm troops against good mutas.
Let's run though what sucks hardcore on a little more detailed level:
1. Building Placement. Building placement in TvZ is all about preventing the mutas. Turrets to
cover main minerals, nat minerals and your ramp/choke. I find I have very bad building placement with
nearly everything. turrets behind my mineral lines pretty much begs for ling snipes. Bunkers out of
position at nat, mnm running through buildings getting single filed and raped... Depots being thrown up all over the base messing up future rax and other buildings.
2. Overall mnm micro vs mutas. It's beyond sad. I try to group and hit and run but I accidentally
move command shit so much or let things run single file. I get raped so hard at the uphill ramp near
your natural on HBR it isn't even funny. Kawaiirice has been helping me a bit TvZ recently and
mentioned something about attacking in a way that it glitches the muta attack range or something, maybe looking into that shit more would be helpful... I've been really trying to get a deeper understanding of TvZ such as what the fuck to do when you scan and see den/spire at same time. Zomfg I hate that shit.
3. Getting a good build (bio based). Another problem I allowed to happen with my TvZ was never finding a good build that I could rely on. Sure I started taking games off high level players with mech builds and other cheesy 2 (and recently 4port) builds. but those are so easily countered when the zerg knows whats coming and if I play more than 2 or 3 games against the same opponent I found myself getting raped so ridiculously hard it was sad. Recently I'm "trying" to 1rax fe -> 4 rax and 1rax fe-> 3tank+vessel timing but my timing gets so horribly screwed by multiple factors. Like forgetting when to make natural gas and forgetting to research basic basic things like marine range upgrade.
4. Not missing depots. In TvP I had a huge problem at 52 supply right after my expo had been
running for a bit I would always get stuck hardcore at 52. I fixed this by incorporating a depot at my
natural to prevent dt and turret pickoff and/or bulldog attacks. Now this comes naturally and I find I'm not getting stuck at 52 anymore. But TvZ I miss depots at multiple times which isn't as easily fixed. Sometimes even at 36 which is stupid as shit. I miss depots most of the time when I am going to
make turrets. Right before turret timing I try to save around 300 minerals for the 6-7 turrets I
usually make but when I build turrets and then go back to macro I'm always supply stuck.
All of this needs to be improved if my TvZ is to get any better. I'll continue trying to improve but
it's so frustrating right now and there are such big temptations to just go back to a cheesy/allin
style but I really want to fundamentally fix my TvZ... From the bottom up which sadly is going to take a ton of work. 
Starcraft in some ways reminds me of golf, you can never ever think of everything while you swing a club (keep your head down, follow through the ball, don't overswing, feet parallel to the target, swinging outside in for a draw, correct grip, correct body movement through the ball, more weight towards your left foot) you instead focus on one aspect at a time until everything becomes subconscious and it just happens when you do it.
Starcraft is alot about this especially with these kinds of problems I am having. What I will do moving forward is incorporate this type of thinking in my TvZ. I will go into each game focusing on ONE aspect that is weak such as trying to not miss a single depots throughout the game and primarily focusing on that only especially when I go to make anti muta turrets. Lots of small things to fix here but I know I have the foundation if I can fix these small things I can hopefully start doing halfway ok at TvZ above C+ levels.
Take care TL hopefully I can turn this sad sad story into a success story sometime in the future!
p.s thanks kawaiirice, freaky, toxic, octzerg and whoever else has given me advice/practice games in the past couple weeks <3 u all.
  
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wanna trade
u teach me tvp and i teach you what not to do in tvz
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Muta is the sole reason I've spent the past ~2months testing just how viable alternative openings are.
I experimented alot, and managed to make a good opening, only to find that it's almost identical to iloveoov's fake mech.
I like that opening.
My TvZ doesn't feel cheesy, as the mentioned opening is extremely flexible, and I made C level(pure TvZ) without bigger problems.
Now I'm trying another thing, we'll see how that goes.
(My bio TvZ is nowhere near C last time I checked)
But yeah, bio still holds the "the proper way to play TvZ" title, so it's noble to stick to it.
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I can compete with higher level zergs with fake mech and other "non proper" ways to TvZ but I grew so tired of constantly living in fear TvZ. "I really hope this allin works." was pretty much how I felt throughout every TvZ.
I can play standard TvP and felt so confident on the other hand my TvZ was constant living in fear. I used to have success when I followed some good advice from ret, go into TvZ with a midnset to have as many troops as the physics of starcraft broodwar will allow. and you can repel anything zerg throws at you. Sadly my horrrible mnm micro prevents this from working for me. I need to just continue to practice mnm micro especially vs muta.
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1. 3. and 4. you can practice by playing vs comps where there's no pressure and you have the freedom to experiment and quit/start over immediately as you need. Just get general ideas from replays and copy/experiment from there.
2. just stim, right click towards muta and right click a muta and shift right click a different muta, and right click away as the muta escape over a cliff edge or something to avoid marine parades.
I've always found tvz to be relatively easy once you develop enough micro to avoid losing all of your marines at once to lurkers. Lurkers are far scarier to me than muta, but as a zerg I've had a good terran friend/rival for a long time now and had someone to base stuff on.
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On December 01 2009 06:28 LuckyFool wrote:
Like forgetting when to make natural gas and forgetting to research basic basic things like marine range upgrade.
You probably know the timing but throwing down your natural gas whenever you build your starport is an easy way to remember. GL with the mu, stick with the 1 rax fe and it'll come good eventually considering how strong the rest of your game is.
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2 port wraith every game imo
also you should make a run and just dodge zergs you're in a competition to win it  get better later.
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Teach me TvP/TvT I teach you my solid ass TvZ build that wins 90% of the time with a single hive timing push.
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On December 01 2009 06:45 Nightmarjoo wrote:
1. 3. and 4. you can practice by playing vs comps where there's no pressure and you have the freedom to experiment and quit/start over immediately as you need. Just get general ideas from replays and copy/experiment from there.
2. just stim, right click towards muta and right click a muta and shift right click a different muta, and right click away as the muta escape over a cliff edge or something to avoid marine parades.
I've always found tvz to be relatively easy once you develop enough micro to avoid losing all of your marines at once to lurkers. Lurkers are far scarier to me than muta, but as a zerg I've had a good terran friend/rival for a long time now and had someone to base stuff on.
In single player I do not worry about the muta harass and the timing difference between 2 and 3hatch muta I can just focus on not missing depots and I don't miss depots.
Go into a real TvZ where there is a threat of mutas and I start missing depots left and right.
I have a bad habit of making things more complicated than they really are and over thinking. But I also just have a TvZ mental block right now which is difficult to overcome. Hopefully talking through shit here I can begin to get over it.
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How is your TvT B level lol... mine is C+ at best <_<
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I've got the same problem, even tho I'm on a way lower level than you  My TvP is D+/C-, TvT is a solid D+ and TvZ is like.. 1200 points O.o
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Are you saying u have better TvT than me poke? ^_^
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On December 01 2009 07:08 LuckyFool wrote:
Are you saying u have better TvT than me poke? ^_^
2-0 in decently long games would support that... but not necessarily lol
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u can take games off me on bad days poke but we don't play enough to really know. Play me a bo3 or bo5 sometime and we can get a better idea. 
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On December 01 2009 07:12 LuckyFool wrote:u can take games off me on bad days poke but we don't play enough to really know. Play me a bo3 or bo5 sometime and we can get a better idea.
dodge afk hw
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ok bo5 sometime when we're both on.
there should be stakes too like if I lose I have to join mg. so I have extra motivation to play better, I always play better if its important.
not that mg is a bad team!!! I'm just a team dodger for some reason (always have been super picky when it comes to join teams)
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LOL if you lose you have to join mG.
why should that be a punishment I wouldn't want to make you do that rofl
iunno I'll think about it o.o
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nice ninja edit. too bad I can't edit posts from my phone
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it's just jokes but I am going to join a team soon and sprite and toxic could both help my TvZ so much.
u ninja edited a little earlier saying ur TvT might not necessarily be better. What u go from ur comp to ur phone in that short amount of time? hmmmm.
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yes I just got kicked out of the living room where my computer is. qq
ninja edits are no more
I dunno, maybe loser could join Empyrean in Noobville.
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United States2186 Posts
Mass gaming the wrong way frankly isn't going to help you much if your foundation is that bad. Focusing on one aspect per game isn't a bad idea per se but still inefficient if you don't understand it as well.
To that effect I suggest watching vods and getting that build down, then practicing it in single player until you can do it mechanically. Do this for every map before you play on it until you get the build down correctly in practice every time. If you can't do it right against nobody you will of course have problems against an opponent that you must react to. You say you can do it properly in practice alone but it falls apart in real games; that simply means you aren't practicing alone enough to the point where it is subconscious or you don't really understand what you are doing in the first place (sounds like both). Either way the remedy is careful study of pro vods + single player practice until it is second nature.
For 1 basic rax fe openings:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/31182_Flash_vs_HoGiL (pre defiler timing)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11452_Flash_vs_YellOw[ArnC] (defending muta/ling allins)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11301_Flash_vs_hyvaa (muta defense)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11189_Flash_vs_Jaedong (sk terran)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11155_Flash_vs_Jaedong (sk terran)
That should be a good list to get you started. All are vs 2 hatch muta though if you want a 3 hatch muta you're going to have to look at other games. I suggest this for defending 3 hatch muta.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9420_Jaedong_vs_Mind
There's no substitute to watching pro games and if you say your understanding is bad then that is the place to start. Pause it frequently and look at why the Terrans do what they do in response to certain situations. Replays are obviously better for this since then you can watch through their pov but I don't really remember any useful standard TvZ reps off the top of my head. You will learn how to defend vs mutas after you see Flash handle the best Zergs without losing anything over and over.
Valkonic/fake mech is a totally legit way to play btw. It's just very hard to pull off vs really good players since you have to have timings down pat and scout correctly for allins. But it's easily one if not the best build on a lot of maps so you shouldn't be living in fear playing it unless you normally play in fear of dying to ling allins or w/e.
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Why don't you just start going mech more often :/
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Jesus christ, the mods need to allow us to see Ver's posting history just so I don't forget to check out all the games he recommends... I never remember to watch them right away and recommended games of certain things is always what I need to see lol. Thanks!
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I remember a thread floating around where korean T's always practice a certain BO vs a 3 hatch mutal zerg. Just find a good practice partner to go 3 hatch mutal over and over and practice that build order to death. > <;; i dunno what to say beyond that
pro games always inspire me to play better, and i take tips from the pro's.
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Hmm, if you miss gas and depots, write down the bo on paper and keep it in front of you. Read and build. It might be a bit distracting at first, but it will be better later. You'll start checking it less often as you progress, and once you're done, you'll know when to add things, and more importantly, you will do them almost automatically. I did this with the 9 min push (3 tank 1 vessel, as you say it).
Next, maybe cut scv production for a short time and put a few extra turrets. It's better to put 2 more turrets than die to mutas. Take a look at some of Idra's earlier games (don't know if he still does it), he sometimes put even 5 or so turrets at his natural. As you get better, you'll need less turrets.
You might know most of this, but it's good to remind you, or draw your attention back to something you forgot:
When microing against mutas, just keep marines close to turrets and don't attack mutas all the time just because they're flying around. (You need to save marines until you got enough.) 3 medics, don't stim too often. Keep turrets close together so at least 2-3 fire at the same time, yet try to cover as much as possible. 2 Turrets near your rax to prevent mutas killing your new marines. If it's a long way or a choke towards the nat, rally your marines next to the barracks, since it's easy to kill them then. (or put 1 turret there) For the micro, it's like, stim then move a bit away from the mutas, when he goes in to attack you, run towards the mutas and focus fire on 1 muta to kill it, then run away (unless he's standing there ofc) and repeat. Keep marines together so he can't kill them 1 by 1, but try to make a semicircle around the mutas, or at least a line if you can.
You might even want to put a bunker at nat instead of 1-2 turrets, since those are sturdier, and also protect against lings.
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On December 01 2009 07:22 LuckyFool wrote:ok bo5 sometime when we're both on. there should be stakes too like if I lose I have to join mg. so I have extra motivation to play better, I always play better if its important. not that mg is a bad team!!! I'm just a team dodger for some reason (always have been super picky when it comes to join teams)
how about whoever wins plays the grand-master in a bo5..
aka: me.
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Hehe, good old BNet East days
its good not to see a rage thread from you Lucky haha, but a "help me on this and this particular things" thread
Good luck massing TvZ's!
BTW, we're 1-0 atm
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Wasn't your last blog complaining about B- tosses but now you're pushing B+ tvp? And why do you always slip something about your APM in?
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wanna practice msg me gl improving tvz
ps ret gave me the same advice ^^
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On December 01 2009 08:28 Ganfei wrote:
Wasn't your last blog complaining about B- tosses but now you're pushing B+ tvp? And why do you always slip something about your APM in?
why not?
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On December 01 2009 08:35 never_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2009 08:28 Ganfei wrote:
Wasn't your last blog complaining about B- tosses but now you're pushing B+ tvp? And why do you always slip something about your APM in? why not? I'm quite possibly the worst 300apm user on the planet.
And yeah hatchet we should play some again sometime.
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I dunno, I think Racenilatr wins the bad 300 apm users contest.
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On December 01 2009 08:28 Ganfei wrote:
Wasn't your last blog complaining about B- tosses but now you're pushing B+ tvp? And why do you always slip something about your APM in?
im pretty sure his last blog was complaining about how terrible heartbreak ridge was against tvp
and him bitching the map to hell.
he has some solid wins against very good tosses on his tsl account too.
GL mate, i'd mass zvt you but im terrible.
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On December 01 2009 07:32 LuckyFool wrote:it's just jokes but I am going to join a team soon and sprite and toxic could both help my TvZ so much. u ninja edited a little earlier saying ur TvT might not necessarily be better. What u go from ur comp to ur phone in that short amount of time? hmmmm.
I think I might see where you are headed
As for your T v Z your macro is very solid, i would suggest adding more turrets focusing more on not losing too much and sacrificing a bit of army temporarily.
From my playing vs you i think your macro is much superior to mine its just a question of being able to not die to mutas while teching pretty quickly to vessels (3 rax tech) The biggest pain in the ass for a Zerg is a T that is really good at keeping his vessels alive.
You also seem to be pretty careless with your units, as I stated to you earlier today i believe the match up is more-so about finesse than anything else. What i'm trying to tell you is that missing that depot may be important, but if it ends up making you lose your army to a single defiler and 4 lurks it's probably not a good trade-off. Keeping those army alive is much more of a pain for the zerg trying to get comfortable off his 4 bases by just not letting him have positional advantage you can screw him over quite hard.
Not sure about this one but i'l throw it in, do you use your scanners constantly ? I feel i don't see a lot of blue (could just be me).
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at 52 supply i hope zerg doesn't have defilers ^_^
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good advice toxic. I am already starting to get better I can feeel it.
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do one base plays
seriously do sunken breaks against 3 hatch zergs and get the range and +1 upgrade quickly
i win every tvz game now, even late game now because not only does this build work, it'll boost your confidence in tvz lol
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I could probably play some ZvT games with you if you like.
I have the same kind of problem in my TvZ, my turretplacement never seem to be good and my mnm micro vs mutas most C- players could probably do as good or better. Not the exact same thing but I also have this kind of weird skill gap in my game. My TvZ vs 3hatch is probably around B/B+ level while my TvZ vs 2hatch muta is insta loss vs most B- players and vs anyone with anything resembling muta micro I just die vs 2hatch before I can ever get out of my base.
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sounds like a plan Oystein. We're not on the same times much (such different time zones) but I'll add you and msg on icc if I see you on.
and @ noojOh, sure I have been doing that for pretty much the past 3 years which is why my overall TvZ has never gotten good. I've done cheesy one base, mech, 2port, 2fact speedvult allin stuff that sometimes lucks me wins against B-/B but doesn't overall improve my TvZ foundation which is what I'm aiming to do.
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1rax FE -> 2port valk vs 2hat allin muta = kekekeke
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On December 02 2009 05:13 KawaiiRice wrote:1rax FE -> 2port valk vs 2hat allin muta = kekekeke
Are you ever gonna stop advertising that? ~_~
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Lucky, I know what you are doing wrong. And since I'm such a great player, and qualified to give you advise on TvZ, I will tell you the secret to TvZ: You have to kill the Zerg in order to win. And you aren't killing the Zerg, therefore you get beat.
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EPT
