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Pro statistics show that zerg has a slightly better win rate in this match up. Although maybe Z > P in the pro world, I don't think this reflects the balance of the match up anywhere else.
In my opinion zerg has the most potential out of any race because they require the most actions and is harder to play a "pefect" game. Consider a "Normal" zvp requires you have to drone up through at least 3 hatches with inconsistent larvae timing as opposed to the standard 2 nex or 2 cc scv/probe production. It is less likely for a zerg to macro perfectly than a Terran or Protoss that is attentive to worker production.
The rest of the world can't even come close to playing a perfect zerg game which is why I believe that the match up isn't as imbalanced as some people think. I'm not positive but it seems like most of the top foreigners play Terran and Protoss and not Zerg. I haven't been following starcraft forever but this is my take. Perhaps someone has any information on non-korean starcraft to shed some light on this?
EDIT: evidently there are a lot of top foreign zerg players. This doesn't at all change my opinion that ZvP isn't as imbalanced as others think.
 
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What about ret and Mondragon and DinOt?
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that's not a lot of names if you consider how many good foreign toss and terrans there are
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Belgium6774 Posts
Lol what
Zerg and protoss are respresented a LOT more than terran in the foreign world
And 'being best at the perfect level' could just as easily apply to terran or protoss. Probably terran the most since its one of the most apm intensive races.
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Even at C level Zergs get good enough at larvae management with their 200+ apm and basic gamesense to produce drones appropriately while macroing an army. Let me guess, you are D+ or lower?
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That Z>P imbalance in the all-time statistics is carried over from the time before Bisu/savior. ZvP is pretty balanced now, and just depends on the map.
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On October 19 2009 00:21 sixghost wrote:
That Z>P imbalance in the all-time statistics is carried over from the time before Bisu/savior. ZvP is pretty balanced now, and just depends on the map.
If you've been following the recent trends on formerly balanced maps (Destination) and on the new maps (pretty much all of them), you'd see that it's not just a factor of maps, but also metagame.
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lets see...who plays terran outside of korea....hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Brat, strelok, idra (kinda outside..), artosis......super.......a2...............yosh, nyoken.......
oh and me....
compared to infinity toss and zerg 
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Haven't played in years. I was last active when WGT was running and got to B3 using random. i'm not a newb for that person who assumed I'm a D+ player...I just don't see the imbalance of ZvP as bad as others I guess...I just don't think looking at the pro korean scene is a good indicator for the rest of the world since there are only a handful of foreigners who even play at that level.
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If you haven't played in years then you wouldn't know, I'm guessing. The Korean scene is a good indicator for the rest of the world in the sense that Z>P right now, both due to maps and metagame.
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Maybe there are just a lot of great Zerg players compared to Toss players in korea right now which makes it seem like Z > P. How many great toss players are there? Bisu, Stork, Jangbi? Backho? lol? Games where players like Jaedong play skew the statistics since they are so strong that the win could be due to personal skill rather than race imbalance. There also seems to be a ton of great zergs in korea right now...effort, calm, kwanro, yellow[arnc], jaedong, zero, etc..i mean...5 out of the 10 on the power rankings are Zerg including no.1 and no.2. ZvP imbalance can't be the most contributing factor.
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You also have to consider how many "upsets" have happened recently, and how stark a contrast the Protoss saturation was 4 months ago to 11 months ago. 11 months ago we were starting the era of the 6 Dragons. Now almost all of those Dragons can't even take a game. I doubt they all got worse, and I doubt all the Zergs got that much better. It's just the evolution of the maps is favoring Zerg more and more, and the metagame progression has halted as of now for PvZ, with 3 hatch muta/5 hatch dra raping in the early-mid to mid-game with templar being sniped by muta and dras overrunning armies. Is Shine one of these great Zerg players? Frankly, no. But he eliminated Bisu from the OSL. What?
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Bisu is famous for being inconsistent, he also got taken out 3-0 by iris last MSL. Did anyone expect that?
(bisu lost 3-2 my mistake)
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1. It was 3-2, please settle your facts if you plan to argue about something you admit you have little experience about due to your inactivity (namely, current SC trends). Either way, a PvT series is irrelevant to the grand scale of things.
2. Bisu is also the best PvZ and best Protoss right now. Losing to Shine in early OSL stages is more likely attributed to maps or metagame shifts than his inability to perform.
3. Stop taking one point out of my post and falsely arguing it. You completely ignored what I stated about the difference in map pool and its correlation to the difference in Protoss saturation in SLs. You also ignored my assessment of the metagame shift.
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w/e it's still a loss that he should have won. In the end it doesnt matter because it knocked him out of the MSL and that's all people will remember. Don't be arrogant just because I made a minor mistake.
The main article posted by plexa today attributes Bisu's loss to Kal to Bisu's inconsistency, not to maps or metagame shifts. Just because Bisu is the best protoss doesn't mean ZvP is imbalanced when he loses to someone he shouldn't. He has often lost to people in the past that he shouldn't and that is one reason he is the greatest player never to win an OSL.
1) even if the maps favor zerg (which I don't know), that doesn't change the intrinsic balance of zerg vs protoss.
2) the metagame has shifted so what? nobody is forcing toss players to cannon FE every game. There are plenty of times when protoss players successfully 1 base starport or other builds.
EDIT:
you are saying that Bisu losing to a player he should have beat has nothing to do with this? what? I think it has a lot to do with this when I am arguing he is inconsistent and both times (vs shine/iris) he has lost to people he should have beat forcing his exit out of a major tournament.
I'm pointing out it's not just zerg players that force these upsets on Bisu.
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On October 19 2009 02:42 cwjalex wrote:
w/e it's still a loss that he should have won. In the end it doesnt matter because it knocked him out of the MSL and that's all people will remember. Don't be arrogant just because I made a minor mistake.
The main article posted by plexa today attributes Bisu's loss to Kal to Bisu's inconsistency, not to maps or metagame shifts. Just because Bisu is the best protoss doesn't mean ZvP is imbalanced when he loses to someone he shouldn't. He has often lost to people in the past that he shouldn't and that is one reason he is the greatest player never to win an OSL.
1) even if the maps favor zerg (which I don't know), that doesn't change the intrinsic balance of zerg vs protoss.
2) the metagame has shifted so what? nobody is forcing toss players to cannon FE every game. There are plenty of times when protoss players successfully 1 base starport or other builds.
1. 3-0 and 3-2 is not a MINOR mistake. Do you know anything about the proscene? Did you even watch those games? Iris played top-notch, and Irish was a GREAT player back in the Savior era. His strong performance was surprising but not in the sense that Bisu fucked up and lost. PvT is Bisu's weakest match-up, even after he revamped it. Also, this was the SEMI-finals of the MSL. Don't think my pointing out your ignorance makes me arrogant. If I wanted to be arrogant I'd point out that starports are Terran buildings and that 1 base builds are disadvantageous against a competent Zerg on many of last season's maps. There is a reason Protoss goes Forge FE - Zerg has gotten too good at defending their economic advantage when expanding.
2. Okay so because Plexa said something, you believe it. Congrats, you're a tool. Watch a few recent PvZ games and make your own assessments. Plexa is a gifted writer and I respect his opinions, but some things are simply not as objective as they seem. What was the point of this blog if any counter-argument to your statements would boil down to "PLEXA SAID THIS SO STFU?"
3. If the maps favor Z>P then it doesn't make Z>P true, that is correct. I thought we were arguing about why Protoss has been getting anal fucked recently. I listed that as one of the reasons.
4. "So what?" Do you know how long it took for someone to stop iloveoov's dominance in TvZ? How long it took someone to stop Savior? Except now, with the absence of a bonjwa and the lines between S and A class diminishing, almost every player is able to take advantage of the metagame advantage that in other eras only the top 2-3 players would be able to control.
EDIT: 5. Please stop editing shit in after you post, it's getting annoying to have to check every time and then edit my own post. Concentrate on what you're about to say and say it all at once.
6. Since when is a person's skill in one MU relevant to his skill in another? Bisu used to be monstrous at PvZ and good at PvP, and failed hard at PvT. Stork is good at PvT and PvP but bad at PvZ. The level of opponents that any player may lose to is dependent first and foremost on the MU itself, the player's capabilities in that MU, their opponent's capability in that MU, the map on which they are playing, etc. It's not like Bisu is choking under pressure, like Stork has - Bisu's 3 MSL golds are a testament to that.
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stop getting mad little girl and argue with your ideas and not your emotion.
It is a minor mistake when my argument is that Bisu lost to someone he shouldn't have. He still lost and that is how it will be recorded. Also, you haven't responded to my suggestion that perhaps there are just a lot of great zergs in korea right now. Your "bisu vs shine" argument is a classic example of the statistical error known as knowing the "man who". Just because you know of something happening to someone once doesn't mean that it reflects what usually happens.
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On October 19 2009 03:04 cwjalex wrote:
stop getting mad little girl and argue with your ideas and not your emotion.
It is a minor mistake when my argument is that Bisu lost to someone he shouldn't have. He still lost and that is how it will be recorded. Also, you haven't responded to my suggestion that perhaps there are just a lot of great zergs in korea right now. Your "bisu vs shine" argument is a classic example of the statistical error known as knowing the "man who". Just because you know of something happening to someone once doesn't mean that it reflects what usually happens.
Cwjalex you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is obvious to everyone that you are not up to date with Stacraft. I can tell from your posts that not only have you not played the game in years, you probably haven't even watched a pro game in years. Your arguments are poor and your knowledge of the game is worse. Please play many PvZ on iccup at C or higher, or watch some recent pro games PvZ before you try to argue about a matchup you don't know much about. Listen to Fanatacist he knows what he's talking about.
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^ What he said. Go back into anonymous mediocrity please. I addressed your point, you were probably just too focused on saying what you wanted to say to even read it. Peace.
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wow, must be nice to have some fan-boy finish your arguments. Way to be real mature and start name calling. Grow up. I'm sorry that you're toss isn't good enough to beat zerg. All I was calling for was for some moderation and that ZvP wasn't AS IMBALANCED as people thought. I didn't say it was even or that P has an advantage. Don't be so disgruntled because you suck PvZ.
Even though I haven't played competitively in years. I have still played games against B+ iccup players and held my own. I am not completely clueless to the metagame shift. That "probe" fellow managed to insult me without putting a single argument of his own in. Good job for another ignorant poster. You say it's obvious I haven't watched any pro games when I cite a few in my arguments. Way to not read what I posted.
Fanatacist or probe, 1v1 me if you feel I am so bad and without knowledge. I'll play you any match up.
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On October 19 2009 09:11 cwjalex wrote:
wow, must be nice to have some fan-boy finish your arguments. Way to be real mature and start name calling. Grow up. I'm sorry that you're toss isn't good enough to beat zerg. All I was calling for was for some moderation and that ZvP wasn't AS IMBALANCED as people thought. I didn't say it was even or that P has an advantage. Don't be so disgruntled because you suck PvZ.
Even though I haven't played competitively in years. I have still played games against B+ iccup players and held my own. I am not completely clueless to the metagame shift. That "probe" fellow managed to insult me without putting a single argument of his own in. Good job for another ignorant poster. You say it's obvious I haven't watched any pro games when I cite a few in my arguments. Way to not read what I posted.
Fanatacist or probe, 1v1 me if you feel I am so bad and without knowledge. I'll play you any match up.
Ok lets go iccup. I'll be protoss you be whatever race you want. My nick is Zork. Find me and let's play. Or PM me when you want to play.
Also what name calling? I didn't call you any names.
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On October 18 2009 23:23 cwjalex wrote:
Pro statistics show that zerg has a slightly better win rate in this match up. Although maybe Z > P in the pro world, I don't think this reflects the balance of the match up anywhere else.
In my opinion zerg has the most potential out of any race because they require the most actions and is harder to play a "pefect" game. Consider a "Normal" zvp requires you have to drone up through at least 3 hatches with inconsistent larvae timing as opposed to the standard 2 nex or 2 cc scv/probe production. It is less likely for a zerg to macro perfectly than a Terran or Protoss that is attentive to worker production.
The rest of the world can't even come close to playing a perfect zerg game which is why I believe that the match up isn't as imbalanced as some people think. I'm not positive but it seems like most of the top foreigners play Terran and Protoss and not Zerg. I haven't been following starcraft forever but this is my take. Perhaps someone has any information on non-korean starcraft to shed some light on this?
EDIT: evidently there are a lot of top foreign zerg players. This doesn't at all change my opinion that ZvP isn't as imbalanced as others think.
You didn't take the multiple facts/rax/gates of T's and P's into account at all, or the fact that there's always been a consensus on ZvP being imbalanced, mainly because of the difficulty of scouting the zerg with toss and the sudden tech changes that can be made by them due to all their units coming from the same building.
There's also the fact that Zerg simply doesn't need to make as many peons as Terran or Protoss does too.
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Even though T and P needs to make more peons I find it easier to macro perfectly with T and P even though I play mostly Z these days. With T or P you don't have to think about macro. Just always have 1 worker making. You have to choose between worker and unit with zerg as well as larvae doesn't appear at the same time at all your hatches. Even if you are switching from your hatches at 300+ apm there is still gonna be seconds here and there that could have been saved from making the drone faster. With T and P if you always have a worker making there is no way to have macroed faster.
Edit: nobody please respond to this anymore...I'm new here and didn't realize how many of these threads existed.
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On October 19 2009 09:11 cwjalex wrote:
wow, must be nice to have some fan-boy finish your arguments. Way to be real mature and start name calling. Grow up. I'm sorry that you're toss isn't good enough to beat zerg. All I was calling for was for some moderation and that ZvP wasn't AS IMBALANCED as people thought. I didn't say it was even or that P has an advantage. Don't be so disgruntled because you suck PvZ.
Even though I haven't played competitively in years. I have still played games against B+ iccup players and held my own. I am not completely clueless to the metagame shift. That "probe" fellow managed to insult me without putting a single argument of his own in. Good job for another ignorant poster. You say it's obvious I haven't watched any pro games when I cite a few in my arguments. Way to not read what I posted.
Fanatacist or probe, 1v1 me if you feel I am so bad and without knowledge. I'll play you any match up.
Yea since clearly everything I said was from my personal perspective and not from an objective one. You are one of the most persistent idiots I have seen that hasn't been banned yet. Keep it up, maybe after 2-3 more threads about this same topic that you are consistently wrong about people will finally get the message that you're useless.
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lol fana is a douche hahahahaahahahah
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you are right evan. it's just childish how he resorts to personal attacks when he has run out of ideas. This kid is probably like 17 and takes this game way too seriously
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It's not hard to resort to personal attacks when you don't even bother to listen to his points and address them.
It's fucking frustrating when you have the perfect points lined up that effectively knock over the other person's arguments AND YET, they STILL find a way to get around it with some stupid retort.
Btw, what if your idea about there being a lot of great Zerg players rising up isn't true?.What if it's the, OH I DON'T KNOW, the IMBALANCE?
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go away whiny emo. you guys are like 5 year olds that stamp their feet because they don't get their way. Why not try being big boys and have a calm discussion with actual arguments.
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EPT
