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What is the purpose of these blogs, people ask me. Well, I guess in a way I feel like I've wasted a large portion of my life indulging in religion and it's a way of expressing the thoughts that have built up over the years. Some Christians reading these blogs might be able to relate to what I've gone through, others are stuck in their fundamentalism. I've been in both camps.
For anyone who is beginning a Christian journey.
Speaking from the experience of someone who's spent the last decade studying Christianity and trying to learn everything about it as much as possible... Don't waste your time. Be in it for the friendships and the support - not to learn or understand about God. Sometimes I wish I never knew all the things I do now, because ignorance is bliss, but I got on this track of questioning and doubting because there was a catalyst event that caused me to question my faith. If that never happened I could easily see myself as deluded as every other Christian I meet in Church today. And they're great people, but to put it bluntly, extremely ignorant about their faith.
How could there be three days and three nights before the sun was created on the fourth day? Where did Cain's wife come from? How could Cain build a city at a time when there existed only three people? And where did his son Enoch get his wife from?
Don't even ask about Heaven because there is no such place in the Bible. There are, however, 'Heavens' mentioned. Today Pentecostal Christians see Heaven as some place you go to when you die. In the 16th Century the phrase 'Heavens' referred to the feelings of awe and wonder of God's great mysteries, such as the sea leading to the edge of the Earth.
The conclusion I have come to is that we simply do not know. Don't try to take the Bible for its word, because faith ultimately then becomes believing in things you know aren't true. In Alice in Wonderful Alice says to the Queen: "I couldn't possibly believe that"! And she replies: "Perhaps you haven't had enough practice. Why, I have believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast". And this is the attitude a lot of Church leaders expect you to have. If you lose the buzz of enjoying the worship music because you've heard the same: "Shout to the Lord" songs a hundred times and don't get all charismatic anymore, you don't have to work harder to get into the worship. You've just simply gotten tired of that song.
Christians are people who want to have good hearts, but the more you focus on all the spiritual things, the less the focus is on good works. And good works is something I see so lacking in Christianity today because they put all their energies into evangelising. I used to have a cello player in my band who told me - if you want to be a famous musician, why don't you just focus on talking about animal rights and the environment? Because that was something we were both passionate about, but she wasn't a Christian. And I think I must have spent about quarter of an hour trying to tell her why it was so important that turning your heart to God had to be the main message in our songs. I probably would have punched myself in the face if I could go back and meet myself back then.
I went to a cell group a few weeks ago and the whole study was on selflessness, and they even used examples of helping the homeless as what being selfless was all about. But then when I asked the leader of the group whether he actually did any of this, he was like: "oh, well I'm studying at the moment but I'm going to do something about it in the future", and that's something I hear a lot from people who tell me: "why do you care about animal rights, shouldn't human rights come first"? And then I ask them if they actually do any of this themselves, like whether they sponsor a child, and they'll give the: "I'll do it one day when I'm more financially secure".
There's an endless supply of Christians who will have a million answers and think it's cool to get all spiritual and talk about how God's love is something that's invisible and so amazing and theorise about how Heaven is somewhere where you can eat as much as you like and not get fat (speculation - they're incredible at speculating with no Biblical authority but preach a feel-good romanticism message) but being a Christian should ultimately be about being a good person, not "having a relationship with God and accepting you're a sinner and need to believe that He rose on the third day". Just focus on being good, don't ask questions about trying to understand God, and stay happy.
That's what's lacking in a lot of Christians today, especially new, young Christians, because they come to Christ thinking God's forgiven them and it's all fun and entertainment, can't blame them as this is the message that Churches put forward today, and then they have this absolutely warped sense of social justice 'cos they're taught that it's not about good works but funny how giving money to the Church is a good work that is always necessary at every Sunday service.
Church leaders are more than happy to talk about Heaven and salvation, walk into any Church and ask how to have a relationship with Christ so you can go to Heaven and I have absolutely no doubt it will be complete and utter speculation. And the key word is speculation. And it'll be feel-good speculation, with a bit of "only God knows we just have to trust Him" thrown in there. And that's all it is.
If you don't know the answer to a question, such as if God made you then who made God, chances are neither do your pastors. And chances are, everything they know is just stuff they've made up in their own minds to try to answer that question. A big struggle I had with my faith was trying to strip down and destroy everything I ever learnt in Church, because I realised I had all these views that were formed completely based on what I heard other people say, not out of reason, logic and knowledge. A poem that I think reflects a lot of Church thinking today goes like this:
God is on the throne
The fact is known
The manner of it is unknown
Faith in it is necessary
Enquiry about it is heresy
  
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I didn't read your last post...I'll be honest; but I took the time to read this one.
You're the first guy on the side against Christianity on this forum I've run into that I agree with wholeheartedly. Actually the views you express in this blog almost completely parallel mine.
(:
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
why cant reaper ban no more
i'd snd him str8 to hell
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You've got good points, but you aren't writing to convince people. You're just, as it were, "preaching to the choir".
So you might as well hold off, right?
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Rekrul was talking about banning me for making these posts. If you aren't interested in Christianity, don't read them. But there are some stories that come from posting these blogs that I think make posting these entries significant, because many people are growing up with Christian influences in their lives and it screws them up, makes them not understand things, and you know, it's worth talking about.
Reposted without permission, but here is an example of a PM I've received:
+ Show Spoiler +Hey, I read your blog today and wanted to talk about it. It's probably not even going to be a clear or concise response, just a related rambling of my own. I'm pretty much in the same state of "dead" or apathetic Christianity weaning into straight unbelief as I have been for most of my life, with periods of somewhat zealous, but definitely not fanatical, belief. Being brought up in a Christian household, I was never a deeply spiritual person, I heard all the bible stories, listened to hundreds of sermons, been to tons of youth conferences, but lazily have probably spent less than 5 hours of my life reading the bible. So I always feel unqualified and ignorant when talking about biblical matters. However some of the realization you came across (the hypocrisy, the phoniness, the intolerance (although if i recall correctly, christianity doesn't really preach on tolerance) of a lot of Christians) have also occurred to me. The saying "it is difficult to remove by logic an idea that is not placed by logic" also seems particularly significant to me as I have found it difficult to outright reject the notion of Christianity as it has been ingrained into my core. I suppose the logical thing to do would be to dispel all my previous theological belief and set out on some sort of quest to find God. Of course, I'm too lazy to do shit like that, not to mention I wouldn't even really know where to start.
So anyways, here's my question for you. You believe Christianity is flawed in many ways, but do you still believe in the existence of God? of an afterlife? of something that created the Universe out of nothingness? Because maybe its just immaturity or human nature on my part, but I am scared shitless of the idea that after I die, I will cease to exist in a void of nothingness. And whenever I feel that fear, I comfort myself with the impossible dilemma of how the Universe came to be. I comfort myself by saying something must have created the Big Bang, something must have set the Universe into motion. And I am comforted in this, something must come from something, something cannot come from nothing. However, when this happens I know its illogical of me to just assume the Christian God is the one who has done all this, but I guess I am just too lazy, not to mention clueless on what to do at this point in my thought experiment, so usually I just ignore it and go back to my life being apathetic and cynical about Christianity, while desperately hoping in some sort of afterlife.
Sorry about the blocks of text, I don't even know what the point of writing all this is, I guess its cause I can't really voice these concerns to my church, and its a subject none of my friends really talk about. Anyways if you read all that bullshit, thanks. And if you respond thanks even more.
Here is what I replied:
Thank you for your beautifully honest response to my blog. Death scares everybody I think, including Christians, because you're either afraid that there might be a God if you're a non-Christian, or afraid that there isn't actually a God if you are a Christian. Both sides are afraid that they might be wrong.
I don't have the answers... I think you should post what you've written, perhaps you might get some good advice from the other posters?
Can anyone give some good advice for the above poster?
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They were closed for a reason, you know.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Christianity helps more people than it hurts.
Everyone in their lives live some sort of lie in one way or another.
With christians its obvious.
With you it's pretty obvious too. No one cares. Not christians, and especially not non christians. So do urself a favor and stop dwelling on ur past and stop filling the blog section with nonsense. Ur not saving anyone.
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dude, i could give a response to just about everything you write there (not an answer necissarily, but a response) cause i've been there, i know what's going on...
but, i don't think you want to argue it out, and from experience i think most people who go with these kindsa arguements are actually just looking for excuses.
at the heart of christianity is an attitude which says, "God is in control of my life" which is a REALLY hard thing to live with, and something not a single christian has ever got right. ever.
but we're trying. we're selfish, hardhearted, bigotted, judgemental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical.... (you get the point)
but we're trying, not making excuses to just regect the whole thing and go back to an easier life. cut us some slack
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All your questions can be answered. The problem is, you stopped looking for answers.
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On September 04 2009 06:22 Rekrul wrote:
Christianity helps more people than it hurts.
Everyone in their lives live some sort of lie in one way or another.
With christians its obvious.
With you it's pretty obvious too. No one cares. Not christians, and especially not non christians. So do urself a favor and stop dwelling on ur past and stop filling the blog section with nonsense. Ur not saving anyone.
stop talking like you know everything, and stop talking like you know what other people think or care and not care. People do care. So if you dont like this blog, dont read it, its an interesting topic and it should be discussed. If you dont like it, leave it!
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On September 04 2009 06:16 BackHo[BLACK] wrote:Rekrul was talking about banning me for making these posts. If you aren't interested in Christianity, don't read them. But there are some stories that come from posting these blogs that I think make posting these entries significant, because many people are growing up with Christian influences in their lives and it screws them up, makes them not understand things, and you know, it's worth talking about. Reposted without permission, but here is an example of a PM I've received: + Show Spoiler +Hey, I read your blog today and wanted to talk about it. It's probably not even going to be a clear or concise response, just a related rambling of my own. I'm pretty much in the same state of "dead" or apathetic Christianity weaning into straight unbelief as I have been for most of my life, with periods of somewhat zealous, but definitely not fanatical, belief. Being brought up in a Christian household, I was never a deeply spiritual person, I heard all the bible stories, listened to hundreds of sermons, been to tons of youth conferences, but lazily have probably spent less than 5 hours of my life reading the bible. So I always feel unqualified and ignorant when talking about biblical matters. However some of the realization you came across (the hypocrisy, the phoniness, the intolerance (although if i recall correctly, christianity doesn't really preach on tolerance) of a lot of Christians) have also occurred to me. The saying "it is difficult to remove by logic an idea that is not placed by logic" also seems particularly significant to me as I have found it difficult to outright reject the notion of Christianity as it has been ingrained into my core. I suppose the logical thing to do would be to dispel all my previous theological belief and set out on some sort of quest to find God. Of course, I'm too lazy to do shit like that, not to mention I wouldn't even really know where to start.
So anyways, here's my question for you. You believe Christianity is flawed in many ways, but do you still believe in the existence of God? of an afterlife? of something that created the Universe out of nothingness? Because maybe its just immaturity or human nature on my part, but I am scared shitless of the idea that after I die, I will cease to exist in a void of nothingness. And whenever I feel that fear, I comfort myself with the impossible dilemma of how the Universe came to be. I comfort myself by saying something must have created the Big Bang, something must have set the Universe into motion. And I am comforted in this, something must come from something, something cannot come from nothing. However, when this happens I know its illogical of me to just assume the Christian God is the one who has done all this, but I guess I am just too lazy, not to mention clueless on what to do at this point in my thought experiment, so usually I just ignore it and go back to my life being apathetic and cynical about Christianity, while desperately hoping in some sort of afterlife.
Sorry about the blocks of text, I don't even know what the point of writing all this is, I guess its cause I can't really voice these concerns to my church, and its a subject none of my friends really talk about. Anyways if you read all that bullshit, thanks. And if you respond thanks even more. Here is what I replied:
Thank you for your beautifully honest response to my blog. Death scares everybody I think, including Christians, because you're either afraid that there might be a God if you're a non-Christian, or afraid that there isn't actually a God if you are a Christian. Both sides are afraid that they might be wrong.
I
or you could be affraid that theres zeus. Or not zeus.
Me personally im looking forward to Valhalla.
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this topic never works over net, quit it
confrimed by billions of kids and adults trying
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On September 04 2009 06:34 Sadist wrote:or you could be affraid that theres zeus. Or not zeus. Me personally im looking forward to Valhalla.
but... have you been making all the correct sacrifices to woden?
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enjoy reading your stuff anyway =)
i also enjoy the religious arguments that ensue.
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I'm a Christian myself, but I deviate from the whole religious crap. I am for real, I don't write walls of text to ensure others get saved. I just be myself and make a lot of really good friends (all of them ironically non-Christian) which eventually notice I'm different, but not because I was shaped by the church, but because I am being myself, hell, i hate religion, there is no religion, there is only reality. That is the foundation of relationships, not reading the bible ten times a day and spitting "you're going to hell!" on everybody that walks down the street, if it really was supposed to be that way, I can't image how heaven is going to be: filled with a bunch of retarded religious extremists, who in this world wants to be with those people?
sorry for the rudeness, but truth aint pretty sometimes.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On September 04 2009 05:23 BackHo[BLACK] wrote:
there was a catalyst event that caused me to question my faith.
whoa that has never happened to me. it sounds intense though
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sorry for the rudeness, but truth aint pretty sometimes.
haha, glad someone has found the truth, thankyou for sharing, now we can all be enlightened.
/sarcasm
to be honest, apart from that line i pretty much agree with you. although i think church is important (although often painful) and i'm willing to risk people thinking i'm a little crazy by telling them about god...
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Religion, in this case Christianity, is the breaking down and understanding of human reality. The 10 Commandments refer to emotional/physical/spiritual states a man can get into if he breaks one of these. In psalms it even says don't sleep with a married woman or fear the beatings from the husband. Honestly when you take away the fluff its straight forward... think about it,,, its bizarre that we are here in the first place, why not document and clarify in which way to live this existance to the fullest. I'm not saying the bible is perfect, I don't believe that dogma, but I'm saying it's meant as an eye opener for the regular man or woman.
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I agree christians shouldn't worry about finding all of gods answers and just try to be good people. You know, like atheists.
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Another religion topic wtf.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On September 04 2009 06:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 05:23 BackHo[BLACK] wrote:
there was a catalyst event that caused me to question my faith. whoa that has never happened to me. it sounds intense though
LOLOL
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On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
dude, i could give a response to just about everything you write there (not an answer necissarily, but a response) cause i've been there, i know what's going on...
Says the Christian...
On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but, i don't think you want to argue it out, and from experience i think most people who go with these kindsa arguements are actually just looking for excuses.
No, the reason for these "kindsa arguements" are to make people like you less stupid by making you think more about your faith and why it is flawed. Think of it as community service :p Stupidity might be less prevalent around the world if we make even one person less ignorant.
On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
at the heart of christianity is an attitude which says, "God is in control of my life" which is a REALLY hard thing to live with, and something not a single christian has ever got right. ever.
So maybe you should think harder about this. Maybe you should consider the possibility that that the "God is in control of my life" statement is wrong instead of unfoundedly claiming that is right.
On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but we're trying. we're selfish, hardhearted, bigotted, judgemental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical.... (you get the point)
True... but tell me something I can't infer from the rest of your post.
On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but we're trying, not making excuses to just regect the whole thing and go back to an easier life. cut us some slack
No, I will not cut you some slack. Some people need to be dragged along kicking and screaming just to think. Think about why you should "regect" it, don't assume that we just want you to reject something for no reason. THINK, MAN, YOU CAN DO ETTT!!! If not for me, then for humanity or TL.
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Mooga:
I know this sounds wrong, but trust me. Your condescending tone is NOT helping people see your point.
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Religion is a funny thing, it preaches peace and love and salvation and all this other lovely stuff and even rekrul said Christianity helps more people than it hurts. but when you really look at human history you see large amounts of war, violence, and hatred spanning hundreds of years or more.
If only people cared as much about the human race as a whole as they did religion then the "better world" that religious people say they work for might actually become reality.
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OP i dont think you really care about people man, you're just writing to convince yourself. hope you grow up soon.
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On September 04 2009 07:19 Zozma wrote:
Mooga:
I know this sounds wrong, but trust me. Your condescending tone is NOT helping people see your point.
Generally, you're right. However, from reading (some posts) in this thread, logic may not apply in this case so who knows?
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On September 04 2009 05:23 BackHo[BLACK] wrote:
there was a catalyst event that caused me to question my faith.
Wow, that's never happened to anyone before.
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On September 04 2009 07:16 Mooga wrote:
No, the reason for these "kindsa arguements" are to make people like you less stupid by making you think more about your faith and why it is flawed. Think of it as community service :p Stupidity might be less prevalent around the world if we make even one person less ignorant.
Says the non-theist. What is 'stupidity' to you? I'm genuinely interested to know.
On September 04 2009 07:19 Theclutch wrote:Religion is a funny thing, it preaches peace and love and salvation and all this other lovely stuff and even rekrul said but when you really look at human history you see large amounts of war, violence, and hatred spanning hundreds of years or more. If only people cared as much about the human race as a whole as they did religion then the "better world" that religious people say they work for might actually become reality.
Are we going to go on and compare the damage each religion has done (including Secular Humanism) in the world? Please don't mistake selfishness and greed for religion.
On September 04 2009 07:29 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 05:23 BackHo[BLACK] wrote:
there was a catalyst event that caused me to question my faith. Wow, that's never happened to anyone before.
I guess you've been talking to too many brainwashed Atheists. See? That's a huge generalization, just like most of the posts in this thread made by people who aren't interested in adding to the discussion. I don't recall seeing BackHo ever replying to his previous thread on a similar topic.
BackHo, if you ever come back to read this post:
I don't agree with you at all about the purpose of being a Christian. The purpose of Christianity is not about being a good person. It is about a relationship with God and salvation, because that is the key component that Christianity professes. This belief is making an assertion that we as humans are fallen and if we are not saved then we will spend eternity separated from God. So even if you take a perspective on Christianity you have to understand that it makes many claims that have significant ramifications.
Regarding the lack of 'good works,' you are absolutely correct and you should call people on that. If they are not practicing what they preach, they are hypocrites, and unfortunately there are many. (Of course this is a characteristic of humanity and not just Christians.)
If you have questions, ask them. If they don't let you, find other people to ask. You can take what people tell you at face value, but if something doesn't sound right, do your own research. I think it's necessary that you are challenged from time to time. That's one reason why I hang around TL. People here ask a lot of good questions.
EDIT: Grammar
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Who cares about any of this. When we die, our consciousness is blinked out of existence. Be a good person before then, to obtain maximum satisfaction before you die.
There is no fucking God or spirit of the universe. Get real.
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On September 04 2009 07:16 Mooga wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
dude, i could give a response to just about everything you write there (not an answer necissarily, but a response) cause i've been there, i know what's going on...
Says the Christian... Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but, i don't think you want to argue it out, and from experience i think most people who go with these kindsa arguements are actually just looking for excuses. No, the reason for these "kindsa arguements" are to make people like you less stupid by making you think more about your faith and why it is flawed. Think of it as community service :p Stupidity might be less prevalent around the world if we make even one person less ignorant. Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
at the heart of christianity is an attitude which says, "God is in control of my life" which is a REALLY hard thing to live with, and something not a single christian has ever got right. ever. So maybe you should think harder about this. Maybe you should consider the possibility that that the "God is in control of my life" statement is wrong instead of unfoundedly claiming that is right. Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but we're trying. we're selfish, hardhearted, bigotted, judgemental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical.... (you get the point) True... but tell me something I can't infer from the rest of your post. Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but we're trying, not making excuses to just regect the whole thing and go back to an easier life. cut us some slack No, I will not cut you some slack. Some people need to be dragged along kicking and screaming just to think. Think about why you should "regect" it, don't assume that we just want you to reject something for no reason. THINK, MAN, YOU CAN DO ETTT!!! If not for me, then for humanity or TL.
wahey, exactly the kinda of "i'm right and you're wrong, i know what i'm talking about and your an idiot" debate i was trying to avoid in the first place... and NOW this is just another ranting religion thread in which nothing productive will be achieved...
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On September 04 2009 08:16 Chromyne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 07:16 Mooga wrote:
No, the reason for these "kindsa arguements" are to make people like you less stupid by making you think more about your faith and why it is flawed. Think of it as community service :p Stupidity might be less prevalent around the world if we make even one person less ignorant.
Says the non-theist. What is 'stupidity' to you? I'm genuinely interested to know.
I can not define stupidity, nor describe everything that is stupid, but what I do know is that basing your entire philosophy of life on what is, at best, a hunch; When you ignore or reject or rationalize any evidence that contradicts that hunch or calls it into question, and then accuse atheists of being close-minded and ignoring the obvious truth ... is very stupid.
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On September 04 2009 09:40 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 07:16 Mooga wrote:On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
dude, i could give a response to just about everything you write there (not an answer necissarily, but a response) cause i've been there, i know what's going on...
Says the Christian... On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but, i don't think you want to argue it out, and from experience i think most people who go with these kindsa arguements are actually just looking for excuses. No, the reason for these "kindsa arguements" are to make people like you less stupid by making you think more about your faith and why it is flawed. Think of it as community service :p Stupidity might be less prevalent around the world if we make even one person less ignorant. On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
at the heart of christianity is an attitude which says, "God is in control of my life" which is a REALLY hard thing to live with, and something not a single christian has ever got right. ever. So maybe you should think harder about this. Maybe you should consider the possibility that that the "God is in control of my life" statement is wrong instead of unfoundedly claiming that is right. On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but we're trying. we're selfish, hardhearted, bigotted, judgemental, holier-than-thou, hypocritical.... (you get the point) True... but tell me something I can't infer from the rest of your post. On September 04 2009 06:26 kerpal wrote:
but we're trying, not making excuses to just regect the whole thing and go back to an easier life. cut us some slack No, I will not cut you some slack. Some people need to be dragged along kicking and screaming just to think. Think about why you should "regect" it, don't assume that we just want you to reject something for no reason. THINK, MAN, YOU CAN DO ETTT!!! If not for me, then for humanity or TL. wahey, exactly the kinda of "i'm right and you're wrong, i know what i'm talking about and your an idiot" debate i was trying to avoid in the first place... and NOW this is just another ranting religion thread in which nothing productive will be achieved...
I'm just asking you to think. If you can do that, then this thread will be productive. So consider reading the Bible... and when you do that, critically think about it instead of blindly accepting everything that it claims.
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fine, while i'm down here i might as well add,
No, I will not cut you some slack. Some people need to be dragged along kicking and screaming just to think. Think about why you should "regect" it, don't assume that we just want you to reject something for no reason. THINK, MAN, YOU CAN DO ETTT!!! If not for me, then for humanity or TL.
that is about the most condescending thing i've heard...
what do you really know about living a christian life? about any of the struggles, doubts, joys etc of a relationship with God? nothing, because you don't believe he exists... i'm fairly confident we agree so far?
so what gives you the authority to suggest that i've never logically considered my faith? that i've never considered the possibility that there might not be a God? i really do live in the same world as you, i promise. i see terrorists, murderers, natural disasters and wars, i have access too all the information you do, and i believe that there is a God.
screw this, you know the conclusion i'm gonna draw and have already regected it, no matter how cleverly i argue it.
i have considered your worldview more times than i care to count, have you ever seriously, openmindedly considered mine?
final thoughts, this is basically what the OP was about, doubts about christianity and the logic/conherency of it... as someone said earlier, these questions have answers if you're willing to look.
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i'm sick of this, we're just filling up this thread, if you are really wanting to continue this PM me.
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On September 04 2009 09:58 kerpal wrote:fine, while i'm down here i might as well add, Show nested quote +No, I will not cut you some slack. Some people need to be dragged along kicking and screaming just to think. Think about why you should "regect" it, don't assume that we just want you to reject something for no reason. THINK, MAN, YOU CAN DO ETTT!!! If not for me, then for humanity or TL. that is about the most condescending thing i've heard... what do you really know about living a christian life? about any of the struggles, doubts, joys etc of a relationship with God? nothing, because you don't believe he exists... i'm fairly confident we agree so far? so what gives you the authority to suggest that i've never logically considered my faith? that i've never considered the possibility that there might not be a God? i really do live in the same world as you, i promise. i see terrorists, murderers, natural disasters and wars, i have access too all the information you do, and i believe that there is a God. screw this, you know the conclusion i'm gonna draw and have already regected it, no matter how cleverly i argue it. i have considered your worldview more times than i care to count, have you ever seriously, openmindedly considered mine? final thoughts, this is basically what the OP was about, doubts about christianity and the logic/conherency of it... as someone said earlier, these questions have answers if you're willing to look.
Yes I did try to believe in Christianity. My parents are Christian. Some of my friends are Christian. I was a Christian until I could rationalize and think logically. I know about the "Christian life," and that cliched "relationship with God" wherein people create a list for shit to pray about as if a god would care and the ego required to simply believe that an omnipotent god would care whether his own creation "loves" him or not. And with that, I'm sure my condescension will not even be able to dent your ego.
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On September 04 2009 06:43 EsX_Raptor wrote:
I'm a Christian myself, but I deviate from the whole religious crap. I am for real, I don't write walls of text to ensure others get saved. I just be myself and make a lot of really good friends (all of them ironically non-Christian) which eventually notice I'm different, but not because I was shaped by the church, but because I am being myself, hell, i hate religion, there is no religion, there is only reality. That is the foundation of relationships, not reading the bible ten times a day and spitting "you're going to hell!" on everybody that walks down the street, if it really was supposed to be that way, I can't image how heaven is going to be: filled with a bunch of retarded religious extremists, who in this world wants to be with those people?
sorry for the rudeness, but truth aint pretty sometimes.
Do you honestly not see the problem with this?
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This is a game forum, there are thousands of BETTER places to discuss and debate religion. This way you are just bound to start offending people.
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This game forum is also filled with a large amount of random non-game topics, ranging from relationship advice to politics. I don't see why religion is such a "sacred" topic that cannot be included as well.
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Because its a topic a lot of people feel incredibly personal about, just read above for proof of this. Nothing productive ever comes out of religion debates on forums and people are just wound up.
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Churches and all religions are money leeches. Useless crap, sorry for my rudeness. Once I was a christian, not anymore. Religion doesn't make you being good or bad, it tells you what's good or bad based on some non-sense pile of bs... this is my opinion though... I considered myself a "religious person" until my 16. There are some things in life that poke you in the head saying "there is no god dumbass". Once I got into a fight (physically) with my church's priest.
I'm much happier now.
edit: music and religion always remembers me of this:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103772/?autoplay=true
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You could trying being a nihilist, but it's so pointless...
On September 06 2009 01:57 Triple7 wrote:
Of course the world was not created in 7 days, nor was Jonah swallowed by a whale, but the Bible aims to give answers, not history. Scientists have given us the real story of creation, but everyone will eventually ask themselves what their purpose on Earth is, and no man of science will have the answer.
...and neither will a man of faith.
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Of course the world was not created in 7 days, nor was Jonah swallowed by a whale, but the Bible aims to give answers, not history. Scientists have given us the real story of creation, but everyone will eventually ask themselves what their purpose on Earth is, and no man of science will have the answer.
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I really have nothing against christians. Together with buddhists I often find them to be the kindest and most welcoming
They may be basing their life around a lie, which obviously is in the eye of the beholder but I dunno. I don't really care, as long as they are not too extreme.
Most of us live 70-100 years and people find comfort in christianity. What's the big deal
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I apologize for bumping an older and somewhat controversial thread, but...
On September 04 2009 07:04 Bosu wrote:
I agree christians shouldn't worry about finding all of gods answers and just try to be good people. You know, like atheists.
Unfortunately, many people tend to lump morals and beliefs into one group and make generalizations about them. Sadly, there are selfish and altruistic atheists, just as there are selfish and altruistic Christians. I don't think it's proper to say that "all atheists are good people," nor is it correct to say that "all atheists are bad people." Same goes for Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and so forth.
Someone commented earlier that discussing religion on the Internet tends to be rather fail. And while I agree that's generally the case, I find that the posters on TL tend to do a much better job at maintaining civility than many other sites on the Internet. I also like how there are different schools of religious thought on the site, and it's not as simple as "the majority of TL is [insert religious/philosophical belief here]."
I also find the OP to be rather thought provoking and does raise a lot of questions. I do learn a lot from other people's experiences and I can see how those experiences shaped their beliefs.
Perhaps what bothers me the most in my own faith journey is the idea that Christianity is almost completely centered on the idea of salvation through faith in Christ, and that good works often come second to that (as another poster in the thread pointed out). And that leads to many Christian groups who are very condescending towards other people, and even other Christian groups, as they feel that their belief in Christ gives them justification to act as they please.
I am personally trying to figure out what God wants me to do in life. Yes, this means I am definitely a theist, and it means that I feel a sense of divinity calling out to me and guiding me through my life. And while some individuals would be quick to say that I am simply deluding myself or that I am communicating with some subconscious or super ego, that is not what I believe. I cannot prove that God is present in my life nor am I out to justify that belief. I am simply stating that this is my belief.
I, like many other individuals in this thread, am conflicted with Christianity's concept of an all loving God that will only save those who follow in a certain set of beliefs. How can someone who loves everyone and everything condemn those who do not prescribe to a certain faith? It does appear to be very paradoxical. And yet this is the very belief that most Christian groups preach.
This idea of "religious exclusivity" is extremely prominent in many divisions of faith, and what's sad is that it is present even among Christian denominations. I've heard people say that Catholics are led by Satan, and at the same time I've heard that non Catholic denominations cannot be saved without the grace of the Catholic Church. There is a lot of controversy in religious debate, and most people try to avoid the issue altogether.
Unlike many individuals in the world, I have not quite settled on one firm set of beliefs just yet. However a lot of people I have talked to, have encouraged me to keep searching and keep asking questions, because making quick and rash decisions is often a bad idea. I've learned in my years of college to try to keep an open mind about everything. Oddly enough, the idea of keeping an open mind was actually reinforced to me by a few atheists, even though that concept has started leading me on a path towards theism with a strong bias towards Christianity.
My study of science has, in many ways, made me feel more religious. People often see science as the "enemy" of religion, but science does not really work that way. Science is often portrayed to the general public as an absolute truth, a collection of black and white facts, and the idea that something "either is or is not." I have learned that in reality, science operates quite differently from this popular notion. Sickness is not defined by a binary of "sick/not sick" - doctors determine a patient's DEGREE of sickness based on the severity of symptoms and the concentration of pathogens in the body. We've also learned, in recent years, that light is both a particle and a wave. This conflicts with our popular notion that most things are EITHER a particle OR a wave. There are many more examples of these scientific concepts, but one thing is for certain - science does not operate on an absolute scale. Although the word "absolute" is sometimes used, it is typically defined RELATIVE to a reference point (e.g. the Kelvin temperature is absolute, RELATIVE to the temperature at which energy stops moving).
Although science is often seen as the opposition to religion, in my case, science was one of the catalysts that drove me on a path to learn more about religion.
Any way, let me express that the purpose of this post is not to say that anyone is wrong or that they need to believe what I believe. I just thought I'd share my own personal experiences with faith and I hope that people can gain something out of it.
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On September 04 2009 06:55 alexpnd wrote:
Religion, in this case Christianity, is the breaking down and understanding of human reality. The 10 Commandments refer to emotional/physical/spiritual states a man can get into if he breaks one of these. In psalms it even says don't sleep with a married woman or fear the beatings from the husband. Honestly when you take away the fluff its straight forward... think about it,,, its bizarre that we are here in the first place, why not document and clarify in which way to live this existance to the fullest. I'm not saying the bible is perfect, I don't believe that dogma, but I'm saying it's meant as an eye opener for the regular man or woman.
In Psalms? Really? That's ironic.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On September 04 2009 05:23 BackHo[BLACK] wrote:
(many) And they're great people, but to put it bluntly, extremely ignorant about their faith.
So very true, and it also across every other religion out there.
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BackHo, I truly do appreciate you writing these articles, your first one in which you outlined the beliefs of a liberal Christian in particular. Those bulletins about what liberal Christianity espouses were things that I'd been thinking about, but been rather unable to put words to. You helped with that.
Also, to those who think these topics are useless, censoring discussion on any subject is hardly the route to a solution. Even if a solution is not what you're after, it provokes stimulating thoughts and an exchange of ideals. To those who can't be mature and diplomatic in discussion, it's tossing the baby out with the bathwater to ban discussion of it for all of us.
For my own beliefs, as I posted in a previous blog, I was a Pantheist/Deist for a good bit of my life, and now I'm more like an extremely liberal Christian, heavily dosed with logic and reason. I disregard paranormal and supernatural claims such as in the Bible, and I view Jesus as a more metaphysical savior then a literal come-back-from-the-dead manifestation of God. I also do not reject(note: REJECT. Why is this word so hard to spell for some people?) other Gods which have no less substantiation than Christianity. The Christian belief system simply fits mine rather better(it should be noted, by "belief system" I'm referencing the modern manifestation of the belief system, NOT what is espoused in the Bible. I wouldn't even want to meet someone who believed that everything encouraged in the Bible is moral.)
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EPT
