Interested to see how the results change compared to the same poll at the height of bad race-distribution in GSL tournaments a few months ago : https://tl.net/poll/index.php?poll_id=639

Dedraterllaerau

113 Posts

July 15 2019 04:05 GMT

Mayb add an option to never thought protoss was to begin with

Hawke0323

6 Posts

July 15 2019 06:37 GMT

All conditionally

TvZ: Overall balanced. The late game zerg is strong but can be countered by two terran players (TY and maru) with ghosts

TvP: Toss early attack/defense advantage can easily snowball terran players with stronger units - higher pressure - economy advantage - more and stronger units - higher pressure -... Only a few terran player (TY maru) can break this by defending with fewer units thus they can harass with the rest of units and change the balance.

PvZ: Toss early attack/defense advantage grants them with a very strong 7:30 3 immortal push, which is hard to master but commonly exists among korean players. That's why we had 6 toss among top 8 players. There are few zerg players can break this including soo, serral and reynor. Once toss failed to win with that push the game is generally over thanks to the undefeatable zerg late game unit comp.

Thus in summery, the problems I believe are:
1. Terran slow mech comp sucks and nothing could save it. It cannot utilize Lanchester first linar formula like the rest of units which is the critical change between sc1 and sc2. A late game siege tank and thor mobility upgrade could be used.

2. Zerg viper and infestor are way too strong especially when mixed together. The emp change is good but toss also need a better way to deal with it. Grant mothership immunity to mind control in addition with higher mobility in order to use it like SC1 arbiter, teleporting units around might be a good way to grant toss players a tool to deal with invincible zerg army.

3. Toss attack/defense upgrade is a huge problem, only seconds to viper+ infestor combo. It grants toss a strong early and mid game, but a weak late game.

batatm

Israel116 Posts

July 15 2019 08:45 GMT

i woudn't say that protoss are too strong, but i'm still in favor of the prism changes.
in the early-mid game it's a risk free tactic with no downsides and therefore it completely dominates the meta.

Shuffleblade

Sweden1903 Posts

July 15 2019 13:32 GMT

These discussions are never easy, what does "too strong" mean, does that mean that protoss win too much at the pro level? Strength is not only about win percentage even though protoss in korea was dominating heavily until this recent GSL. Rememver back when terran did scv pulls against protoss every-single-game, was protoss too strong? By win percent no but hell yes they were, that was why terran had to win early or mid game or die. It made the game less fun to play, less fun to watch and incredibly one dimensional. From terran perspective it was win early, criple early or die.

I feel we have a much more subtle situation now but still we have a situation where the strength and timing of the races are too different in ways that is not good for the game. not fun to play, not fun to watch and not good for variation and healthiness of the scene.

aringadingding

481 Posts

July 16 2019 11:22 GMT

All terrans will ofc say Protoss is too strong. I mean, why would they stop whining suddenly after all these years?

Jimmon

United States112 Posts

July 16 2019 20:08 GMT

Isn't this a biased poll though?

rasi86

44 Posts

July 17 2019 19:51 GMT

Biggest problem aint PvZ Immortal pushes or PvT but Z lategame. All other has been quite balanced lately, as T/Z figured out howe to deal with toss. Maybe Toss is slightly too strong in PvT, but that's not that big of an advantage atm

StarcraftSquall

United States196 Posts

July 18 2019 04:04 GMT

#10

Can we stop picking on Protoss please? They’re constantly getting nerfed, they’re universally hated it seems, and their best player isn’t going to BlizzCon even though he absolutely deserves to based on his performance.

Let’s also not forget: Protoss hasn’t won a premier tournament championship since... when? (I am referring to an IEM Katowice, GSL Code S, WCS Circuit or BlizzCon).

Shouldn’t everyone be whining about Zerg for a while instead? They have almost all the trophies this year. 👀

kajtarp

Hungary488 Posts

July 18 2019 08:41 GMT

#11

On July 18 2019 13:04 StarcraftSquall wrote:
Can we stop picking on Protoss please? They’re constantly getting nerfed, they’re universally hated it seems, and their best player isn’t going to BlizzCon even though he absolutely deserves to based on his performance.

Let’s also not forget: Protoss hasn’t won a premier tournament championship since... when? (I am referring to an IEM Katowice, GSL Code S, WCS Circuit or BlizzCon).

Shouldn’t everyone be whining about Zerg for a while instead? They have almost all the trophies this year. 👀

I really hate when people bring Circuit in the mix when talking about balance. Circuit terrans in general, but especially after the retirement of Captain America, are 2 leagues below Koreans, except Special. Protosses are not much better either, except maybe Neeb and Showtime, but they are far from the form of their lifetime. Some other protosses have a peak here and there, but then they lack in consistency. WCS is not dominated by Zerg because of balance, but because most of the more talented players are Zergs in Circuit.

Jj_82

Swaziland419 Posts

July 18 2019 19:45 GMT

#12

Just a quick reminder that it's not about the winrates in TvP. The matchup just has some serius dumbness in it. Like what each player has to do in order to survive.

StarcraftSquall

United States196 Posts

July 19 2019 06:42 GMT

#13

On July 19 2019 04:45 Jj_82 wrote:
Just a quick reminder that it's not about the winrates in TvP. The matchup just has some serius dumbness in it. Like what each player has to do in order to survive.

You could make the same case for ZvP: Protoss almost HAVE to all in because of the Zerg late game. There comes a point where it feels like it’s almost hopeless and you need the other player to mess up to have a chance. I think if you asked most Toss pro players they would probably say that they wish they didn’t have to go earlier all the time: but because of the Infestor and Brood Lord late game combo, what other choice is there? 🤔

MarianoSC2

Slovakia1855 Posts

July 21 2019 09:42 GMT

#14

After this balance patch, PvZ will be broken as hell... Toss need a late game buff which won't affect PvT lategame that much. Maybe something like feedback does additional damage against bug units lol. Or carriers interceptor buff. It won't affect PvT because BCs would slaughter them anyway.

Morbidius

Brazil3449 Posts

July 21 2019 22:53 GMT

#15

On July 19 2019 15:42 StarcraftSquall wrote:

Show nested quote +

The meta is in a dumpster, i think all races can agree on that.

Psychonian

United States2322 Posts

July 22 2019 00:48 GMT

#16

Did we not learn from the first one? :/

General_Winter

United States719 Posts

July 25 2019 15:17 GMT

#17

At my level (Platinum) Toss is more annoying than it is overpowered. Pros may know 20 builds for each match up, but down here we just want to learn one build for each matchup and then play some Starcraft. But thanks to pylon block you need two builds vs Protoss, one normal hatch first build and one build for when pylon blocked. The matchup of ZvP is literally twice as hard as ZvZ or ZvT because you need to know twice as many builds (2 is twice as much as 1 for any math challenged readers).

If blizzard thinks high level balance is Ok and just wants to do something about all the ladder players complaining they should address what is annoying rather than what is strong.

TheDougler

Canada8309 Posts

July 25 2019 16:13 GMT

#18

Not to be "that guy" but the question "Do you still think Protoss is too strong in SC2?" is sort of loaded like "when did you stop beating your wife?" It implies that we thought Protoss was too strong before when only a slim majority definitively agreed with that. Would have been better to just ask the same question again to see if the results change.

Then again, it's just a TL poll so maybe I'm taking this too seriously.

Corvuuss

Austria354 Posts

July 27 2019 07:36 GMT

#19

On July 26 2019 01:13 TheDougler wrote:
Not to be "that guy" but the question "Do you still think Protoss is too strong in SC2?" is sort of loaded like "when did you stop beating your wife?" It implies that we thought Protoss was too strong before when only a slim majority definitively agreed with that. Would have been better to just ask the same question again to see if the results change.

Then again, it's just a TL poll so maybe I'm taking this too seriously.

How can you ask this question without it being loaded though? (if you want clear answers). Also if we go by the last poll, the majority did say that protoss was too strong. Only 28% said that it wasn't.