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Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18014 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 08:18:37
October 29 2016 08:18 GMT
#401
On October 29 2016 11:46 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2016 11:36 KwarK wrote:
On October 29 2016 11:12 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On October 29 2016 09:43 KwarK wrote:
Does the fact that your predictions never actually come true matter to you? Or do you file those failures in a separate part of your brain to protect your fragile gold hoarding ego?


Aren't you from Britain?
You know that gold is up 45% in GBP terms this year right?

So is every non Sterling currency when denominated in Sterling. What you're describing is called a drop in the pound. People know about this. You're not an idiot savant. Well, you're half of one I guess.

What's wrong with kwark calling nettles a savant?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42824 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 20:15:48
October 29 2016 15:04 GMT
#402
I think the topic should have a rule that Nettles isn't allowed to make predictions and then refuse to stand by them anymore until one of his predictions comes true. I know they say a stopped clock is right twice a day but in this case it's like we say "Nettles, what time is it?" and he cries back with conviction "potato!".

In case anyone missed the issue with what Nettles said I'll give you a non finance example of his point.

iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Water levels will rise by thousands of metres due to climate change.
KwarK wrote:Do you ever get tired of being wrong Nettles?
iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Did you know that in 1912 the Titanic was around the same level as the water but now it's thousands of metres below? If you were on the Titanic are you really going to say you wouldn't have been troubled by rising water levels?
KwarK wrote:Why don't we compare the Titanic to a third benchmark, like the top of the Empire State Building, and see if it's the water levels that went up or the Titanic that went down?


I know that seems hyperbolic but that really is on the same level as his point that gold has risen hugely, if we judge it purely by how many British pounds it costs. And he made that argument in good faith, he wasn't trying to deliberately be absurd, he just couldn't see the problem with it himself. I guess we're lucky that he chose pounds to compare it to and didn't give us the gold/beanie baby prices from 1998 and 2016 to show how gold truly is the best investment.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
October 29 2016 15:27 GMT
#403
In this case it was pretty clear that IPN was being obtuse and I didn't see any problem with calling him out for it. Nothing wrong with occasionally calling an idiot an idiot as long as enforcement is uniform on the matter.

But I would like to once again complain about people posting low content twits as if they're saying something profound and constructive. They pretty much never do unless they quote someone important directly.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 18:15:23
October 29 2016 18:14 GMT
#404
Another annoying trend in the thread is that several posters are now making their main argument: "If I was talking bullshit, I would be banned, thus TL proves I'm right". And this is not just directed at the last offender, but I've read it multiple times...

thats a bit like reverse martyring...
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
October 29 2016 18:32 GMT
#405
On October 30 2016 03:14 mahrgell wrote:
Another annoying trend in the thread is that several posters are now making their main argument: "If I was talking bullshit, I would be banned, thus TL proves I'm right". And this is not just directed at the last offender, but I've read it multiple times...

thats a bit like reverse martyring...

Any concrete examples? I can see what you might be trying to say but I would like to see a more specific example of what you're referring to.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
October 29 2016 20:38 GMT
#406
On October 30 2016 03:32 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2016 03:14 mahrgell wrote:
Another annoying trend in the thread is that several posters are now making their main argument: "If I was talking bullshit, I would be banned, thus TL proves I'm right". And this is not just directed at the last offender, but I've read it multiple times...

thats a bit like reverse martyring...

Any concrete examples? I can see what you might be trying to say but I would like to see a more specific example of what you're referring to.


The latest one:

On October 30 2016 03:02 ImFromPortugal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2016 02:59 zlefin wrote:
mostly you're just lying portugal; hillary does not want to arm alqaeda; and we've already debunked that and been over it with you.
so it makes people care less about what oyu say cuz you post some stuff tha'ts nonsensical on its face; which makes people glaze over your other stuff.


Na you didn't debunk anything only inside your little mind, if i was lying the mods would have banned long time ago i provided sources and laid down my opinion. Nonsensical ? When 80% of the rebels in Aleppo are islamic extremists, she says she wants to arm the rebels in Aleppo, whats the logical conclusion? Alqaeda dominates the rebels in that region and without them the rebels are not capable of fending of the regime, you are the liar here or just badly informed.

Show nested quote +
On October 30 2016 03:01 LegalLord wrote:
The effect of the plans for arming rebels that Hillary & co have put forward have generally led very easily to Al Qaeda or ISIS receiving those weapons. To say they are arming Al Qaeda is only slightly hyperbolic.



the thing is i could easily overlook some weapons going to the wrong hands, with so many factions engaging in this civil war that is bound to happen eventually. The thing is that the core of rebels in Aleppo are extremists, i listed all the involved rebel factions on the latest attacks to break the siege. 80% of them are extremists and want to impose sharia law and an islamic caliphate you can check their websites where they state that much. By helping the rebels in Aleppo you will be helping those extremist factions, thus helping Alqaeda that is the strongest military and ideologically among the rebel factions.

It's not hyperbole to say that she will be arming islamic extremists including Alqaeda. Any weapon you give to the rebels will be used in coordination with them because they are spearheading the major operations there. Funny enough the rebels have shown much more unity after the Al-Nusra re-branding and their ascension in Syria.



But that logic has been brought multiple times lately.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 30 2016 01:20 GMT
#407
I find "my posting isn't bad enough to get me banned" to be a pretty lousy attestation to the quality of one's posting.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 30 2016 14:18 GMT
#408
I'd agree that adding the "mods don't ban me so i'm right" to the prohibited list would be fine.
I agree that prohibiting low content tweets would be fine. (by low content I mean the post has little other than the tweet, and the tweet isn't by someone important)

both of these rules seem simple enough to be reasonably and fairly enforceable.

Not sure how to address the nettles situation in such a way.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
October 30 2016 17:18 GMT
#409
IPN is being obtuse, but IMO not bannably obtuse, so I think just letting people call him an idiot is fine.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11359 Posts
October 31 2016 05:08 GMT
#410
It's a not a true argument in any case. Aside from outright conspiracy, calling humans animals, and wishing violence on people, rarely do we ban for content so much as tone/ insults/ bullheaded obstinateness that is wrecking the thread. (And yes, I'm sure counter-examples could be found, please don't bother to find them.)
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 18:20:13
November 01 2016 01:08 GMT
#411
I was going to dedicate more of this post specifically to the kwizach issue, but after some thought I decided that it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. Anyone who is late to the kwizach chronicles who wants to read up can read this post, these three posts, these three replies by kwizach, and the feedback thread series starting here if they want to understand where any of this comes from. The tl;dr version is that some posters, most vocally myself and xDaunt, believe that kwizach isn't worth debating with because he does a hell of a lot of grudge-collecting and his long posts are essentially hollow Gish gallops, which really aren't worth responding to because the general tendency of his participation is very often to lead into some really awful discussions in the thread. But other than the fact that he still feels it necessary to come by and offer his commentary to posters who really don't want to talk to him, that's mostly a settled issue.

The issue I really want to focus on is the shitty low-content sideliners, and in this case I'm going to single out farvacola (the most egregious in this case) as someone who adds literally nothing to the discussion but just sits by the sidelines and heckles the opinion he is disinclined to support.

Exhibit A:
On November 01 2016 00:44 kwizach wrote:
(monster post on NATO etc - note the timestamp)

On November 01 2016 00:53 farvacola wrote:
good read, thank you

Reply posted exactly 9 minutes later.

Exhibit B:
On November 01 2016 01:36 farvacola wrote:
And LegalLord waves the white flag, as expected. Way to wuss out, though I'm sure someone can join you in short order as they too tacitly admit that they don't actually read the posts they comment on. Kwizach even provided the counterpoint to every tired forum debate escape hatch you listed.

For more on the phenomena given evidence by LegalLord's exchanges with others here, I highly recommend ChristianS' blog on Scott Adams and "the cult of suavity."

So this guy literally adds nothing to the discussion (having had a month to actually give an opinion on the matter in response to the original post if he had one) and yet feels himself qualified to play this kind of game. This isn't the first or the only case of this - he literally gives a low-content response to every long post. To ones he agrees with, he gives a "yay, u go gurrrl" encouragement post, to ones he disagrees with it's a "ur just stoopid and ur post is wrong." Yet it's clear that, even with some impressive skills in speed-reading that would allow someone to read it in 9 minutes at most (assuming he started viewing it literally as it was posted), there is no way anyone could read such a post critically enough to question whether or not it really is valid. That these two posts were made without even a surface-level consideration of the issues at hand is just so obvious that there's not much to say. Farvacola is far from the only offender, but he singled himself out here by being blatantly and stupidly hostile while adding fuck all to the conversation in terms of content.

This is one of the many reasons I don't like dealing in long dissertation-length posts. People mistake length for quality when the main point agrees with the point that they are previously inclined to support, and they take a "I KNOW this point is BS, it MUST be BS, but I just can't make the argument myself, so somebody PLEASE make the argument for me" stance whenever they are not so inclined to support that position. That is literally the exact same kind of garbage that conspiracy theorist Gish gallops are made of - giant wall-of-text preachings that are uncritically taken as fact by the converted - and I'm just not too into that game. It's too easy to think that just because something sounds good and it looks like too much work to analyze, that it must be right and you can just trust it to be right.

And I also did play that game once - with my response to Lord Tolkien on his repeated point on demographics - and it just isn't something I have interest in or time for. I had to read(/skim) maybe three books, dozens of articles and research papers, and it still ended up being mostly focused on how he randomly ascribed various positions to me based on pretty much nothing, and was a total dick about it. I am more interested in making posts like these where there is more talk about the issues and less focus on responding to people who think it's somehow justified to collect grudges and turn the discussion into a shitty attempt at something resembling those "pwnage videos" that people sometimes like to watch. Because with the crowd these long posts by shitty poor-mannered asshats tend to attract, that's exactly the kind of environment we're getting.

As has been said before, you get out of people what you put in. And for me personally, if what I get out of someone is just pure trash, I will either briefly call them a moron, ignore them entirely, or both. But if this kind of sideline asshattery continues to be the norm, then we're all worse off for it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18830 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 01:16:26
November 01 2016 01:16 GMT
#412
Wah wah wah, you can't refute the points made very ably by both kwizach and Lord Tolkien and have instead chosen to run to website feedback when someone calls you out on it. Report my posts if they bother you, don't read them, or continue to pout proudly as a TL;DR standard bearer.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 01 2016 02:02 GMT
#413
it feels like you are trying to indict kwizach by labeling farva's compliment a "shitpost" -- shitposts are those which compliment shittier posts. i don't see why you are bringing that to website feedback, as short complimentary posts are important for encouraging posters to take the time to post lengthier thoughts, and do not clog up the thread nearly as much as stupid feuds, plan-splaining (wherein plansix explains every post in his own words), or youtube garbage.

tl;dr what's the big deal bro? if you dislike kwizach find a better way to critique what he's saying or ignore him. rhetoric is more important than ever
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 01 2016 02:07 GMT
#414
On November 01 2016 11:02 IgnE wrote:
it feels like you are trying to indict kwizach by labeling farva's compliment a "shitpost" -- shitposts are those which compliment shittier posts. i don't see why you are bringing that to website feedback, as short complimentary posts are important for encouraging posters to take the time to post lengthier thoughts, and do not clog up the thread nearly as much as stupid feuds, plan-splaining (wherein plansix explains every post in his own words), or youtube garbage.

tl;dr what's the big deal bro? if you dislike kwizach find a better way to critique what he's saying or ignore him. rhetoric is more important than ever

The second post is the bigger problem here. He can compliment kwizach all he wants - if he wants to sit by the sidelines and contribute nothing while still feeling it reasonable to comment on the issues, one may wonder why we need such a useless waste of space in the thread.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 01 2016 02:51 GMT
#415
maybe he's disappointed in you. would you prefer a PM?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 01 2016 02:55 GMT
#416
Mostly I'd prefer people to either contribute usefully, politely exist on the sidelines, or fuck off. If someone is neither contributing nor pleasant, why do they even post? They add nothing and they poison the atmosphere.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-01 03:06:48
November 01 2016 03:00 GMT
#417
On November 01 2016 10:08 LegalLord wrote:
I was going to dedicate more of this post specifically to the kwizach issue, but after some thought I decided that it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. Anyone who is late to the kwizach chronicles who wants to read up can read these three posts, these three replies by kwizach, and the feedback thread series starting here if they want to understand where any of this comes from. The tl;dr version is that some posters, most vocally myself and xDaunt, believe that kwizach isn't worth debating with because he does a hell of a lot of grudge-collecting and his long posts are essentially hollow Gish gallops, which really aren't worth responding to because the general tendency of his participation is very often to lead into some really awful discussions in the thread. But other than the fact that he still feels it necessary to come by and offer his commentary to posters who really don't want to talk to him, that's mostly a settled issue.

The issue I really want to focus on is the shitty low-content sideliners, and in this case I'm going to single out farvacola (the most egregious in this case) as someone who adds literally nothing to the discussion but just sits by the sidelines and heckles the opinion he is disinclined to support.

Exhibit A:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2016 00:44 kwizach wrote:
(monster post on NATO etc - note the timestamp)

Show nested quote +
On November 01 2016 00:53 farvacola wrote:
good read, thank you

Reply posted exactly 9 minutes later.

Exhibit B:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2016 01:36 farvacola wrote:
And LegalLord waves the white flag, as expected. Way to wuss out, though I'm sure someone can join you in short order as they too tacitly admit that they don't actually read the posts they comment on. Kwizach even provided the counterpoint to every tired forum debate escape hatch you listed.

For more on the phenomena given evidence by LegalLord's exchanges with others here, I highly recommend ChristianS' blog on Scott Adams and "the cult of suavity."

So this guy literally adds nothing to the discussion (having had a month to actually give an opinion on the matter in response to the original post if he had one) and yet feels himself qualified to play this kind of game. This isn't the first or the only case of this - he literally gives a low-content response to every long post. To ones he agrees with, he gives a "yay, u go gurrrl" encouragement post, to ones he disagrees with it's a "ur just stoopid and ur post is wrong." Yet it's clear that, even with some impressive skills in speed-reading that would allow someone to read it in 9 minutes at most (assuming he started viewing it literally as it was posted), there is no way anyone could read such a post critically enough to question whether or not it really is valid. That these two posts were made without even a surface-level consideration of the issues at hand is just so obvious that there's not much to say. Farvacola is far from the only offender, but he singled himself out here by being blatantly and stupidly hostile while adding fuck all to the conversation in terms of content.

This is one of the many reasons I don't like dealing in long dissertation-length posts. People mistake length for quality when the main point agrees with the point that they are previously inclined to support, and they take a "I KNOW this point is BS, it MUST be BS, but I just can't make the argument myself, so somebody PLEASE make the argument for me" stance whenever they are not so inclined to support that position. That is literally the exact same kind of garbage that conspiracy theorist Gish gallops are made of - giant wall-of-text preachings that are uncritically taken as fact by the converted - and I'm just not too into that game. It's too easy to think that just because something sounds good and it looks like too much work to analyze, that it must be right and you can just trust it to be right.

And I also did play that game once - with my response to Lord Tolkien on his repeated point on demographics - and it just isn't something I have interest in or time for. I had to read(/skim) maybe three books, dozens of articles and research papers, and it still ended up being mostly focused on how he randomly ascribed various positions to me based on pretty much nothing, and was a total dick about it. I am more interested in making posts like these where there is more talk about the issues and less focus on responding to people who think it's somehow justified to collect grudges and turn the discussion into a shitty attempt at something resembling those "pwnage videos" that people sometimes like to watch. Because with the crowd these long posts by shitty poor-mannered asshats tend to attract, that's exactly the kind of environment we're getting.

As has been said before, you get out of people what you put in. And for me personally, if what I get out of someone is just pure trash, I will either briefly call them a moron, ignore them entirely, or both. But if this kind of sideline asshattery continues to be the norm, then we're all worse off for it.

Posts that are stupid and/or disappointing aren't necessarily posts that need to be moderated. People know the score.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 01 2016 03:12 GMT
#418
The mods can moderate as they wish. I personally do support a ban-lite approach; I'll deal with my own detractors myself. Also it's not like we wouldn't all want to just disproportionately ban people we disagree with anyways. Just ban the people who are completely worthless and leave it at that.

Nevertheless, this is very characteristic of the "stupid phase" the thread tends to veer into once in a while, so it was worth mentioning.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 01 2016 04:01 GMT
#419
it honestly seems pretty easy to post a response to kwizach if you wanted to. it wouldn't even take that long compared to how long he spent writing that monster. i could probably do it myself with some legalord flair and pretend i was you. it's just an imposition. now you have to spend time defending yourself. but hey that's what the forum is for. i'd much rather read the two of you going at it, "poison" and all, than read 10 more pages about whether trump has a chance or what the state of the polls are.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 01 2016 04:05 GMT
#420
On November 01 2016 13:01 IgnE wrote:
it honestly seems pretty easy to post a response to kwizach if you wanted to. it wouldn't even take that long compared to how long he spent writing that monster. i could probably do it myself with some legalord flair and pretend i was you. it's just an imposition. now you have to spend time defending yourself. but hey that's what the forum is for. i'd much rather read the two of you going at it, "poison" and all, than read 10 more pages about whether trump has a chance or what the state of the polls are.

Hah, I'd love to see it. Go pick a fight with kwizach. I'll grab the popcorn.
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