EPTUS Politics Feedback Thread - Page 12
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:24 zlefin wrote: Indeed danglars, they need more mods, particularly someone on a lot who can stop things before they get out of hand. though I think it was, at least in some of the responses, reaosnably well explained to templar. he just kept harping on the it doens't apply to him point, as well as pushing some other stuff that just ain't true; a common problem. he's been a problem poster for awhile too (off and on). To clarify, it was the topic and those engaged, not the aforementioned poster in isolation. On September 23 2016 06:34 ticklishmusic wrote: Yeah, monkey is a term which has a history of being used to refer to black people specifically as subhumans, animals, etc. So maybe now that we've established that we can agree either not to use it or that continued deliberate usage is willfully being a twat because ignorance isn't really an excuse anymore. Which is a fucking great post and should end the topic in normal circumstances. But this is US Politics and teamliquid.com and posters alleging racism have had their pants on fire for thousands of pages so "now that we've established" is impossible. I get the idea that much of the thread wishes we could call all people that take xDaunts positions racist and drop it. I've seen it enough in various forms to be fairly convinced. That line of thought is fundamentally lunatic. Then the most obviously dishonest angles of attack are pursued by three or four posters at a time. What the fuck? And this goes on for dozens of pages with no substance (beyond what might be called poll the thread and reach a majority opinion of gamers delineating racism). And the highest reach recently is a tepid concensus that yoga is not an example of problematic cultural appropriation. | ||
KwarK
United States43867 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:19 Danglars wrote: How about a second mod with the clarity to state the topic is down the tubes cease and desist. Shitposters egging on each other until one right-of-center person gets banned. I hardly expect a single person to discover and understand why monkey/ape is more established of a racially-connoted term from the style of responses if they didn't know it going in. (I presume half the thread would make the argument hay it's racist to not know) I'd be amazed if he genuinely didn't know why calling black people monkeys is racist. It's not a particularly rare or unusual slur and nor is the history of the pseudoscience of racial Darwinism with black people being less evolved particularly hard to find out about. I don't think anyone is making it to adulthood in the US without finding out that people used to think that black people were biologically inferior subhumans, especially when justifying horrific crimes against them. But if we take a thought experiment of, say, a five year old who knows the word nigger is an insult but has no idea what it means or that it is used specifically against black people. And that five year old calls a black classmate a nigger. I would happily agree that there was no racist intent there but I would absolutely expect them to apologize and not use it again after it has been explained to them why they shouldn't do that. I would not expect the five year old to insist that they're so not racist that they should actually be allowed to call black people niggers and that making a fuss just because the target was black means that everyone else is racist. Of course GGTemplar isn't five and did know why monkeys is not an appropriate insult to use for a black group but even if he didn't he can't claim that he's the least racist person in existence and therefore he deserves special dispensation to use racist slurs because it's not coming from a racist place. I firmly believe that both xDaunt and GGTemplar, if caught in their full hood and robes setting a cross alight on the lawn of a black family, would flatly insist that we can't possibly infer anything from that. xDaunt would say we're all overreacting and that because he knows he's not a racist that by definition means that nothing he does, no matter how similar it is to things racists do, can possibly be racist. Additionally that he alone of all people growing up in a society in which different races are portrayed differently in films, tv shows, the news etc and are treated differently by people and societal institutions, was completely unaffected by that. No matter how many times he witnessed those around him treat black people and white people differently at no point, even as an impressionable child, did any of that impact any of his development and teach him to think in different ways. Meanwhile GGTemplar would be insisting that he burns crosses on the lawns of all his white friends too and that a burning cross can't suddenly become racist just because you put it on the lawn of a black family. Additionally he'd argue that anyone who thought that it was racist because it was directed at a black family is actually the real racist, while continuing to burn the cross. This fucking Trump candidacy man. He normalized this shit and suddenly they all come out of the woodwork and tell us what they really think. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
In the case of the discussion going on right now, it seems that the course of the discussion demands that someone be banned, and GGTemplar was the most obvious choice - partially because he kept that unpleasant discussion going, but partially because it's a bigger crime to post badly if your opinion is unpopular with the general population of the thread, than if your opinion is pretty popular with the thread. On its face I can definitely see why he was the one who got chosen for a ban, but the discussion is still going just as strong and just as shitty as ever and I can see that people who are shitty about pushing a more popular idea tend to fall under the radar, moderation-wise. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
a poster in isolation does nothing, because it's a discussion forum, so other people are necessarily involved. but it can still be very clear what the source of a problem is. and with tighter moderation, we'd have fewer shitty posters using the more mainstream opinions. the thing is they let it go on so long until something really has to be done, and then ban as little as possible, which tends to push it towards banning one or two outliers. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22209 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:19 Danglars wrote: How about a second mod with the clarity to state the topic is down the tubes cease and desist. Shitposters egging on each other until one right-of-center person gets banned. I hardly expect a single person to discover and understand why monkey/ape is more established of a racially-connoted term from the style of responses if they didn't know it going in. (I presume half the thread would make the argument hay it's racist to not know) If you unknowingly call someone a racist term and people call you out on it the correct response is "shit, I didn't know that. I am sorry". The wrong response is "I look at everything race neutral, no remark I make can ever be racist". | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:52 zlefin wrote: and with tighter moderation, we'd have fewer shitty posters using the more mainstream opinions. the thing is they let it go on so long until something really has to be done, and then ban as little as possible, which tends to push it towards banning one or two outliers. Interpretations of banworthiness is going to be strongly split along something approximating party lines. It always is. In threads more moderation-heavy than this, the popular opinion shitposters still get more mildly moderated than the unpopular opinion shitposters. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:12 LegalLord wrote: Interpretations of banworthiness is going to be strongly split along something approximating party lines. It always is. In threads more moderation-heavy than this, the popular opinion shitposters still get more mildly moderated than the unpopular opinion shitposters. yes; but at least there would be some of them getting banned. things will be imperfect either way, but which one will yield a better outcome? i'd say i'ts better that none have impunity than that some do. I also think it wouldn't be that hard to do a decent job at limiting the party-line split. it's not THAT hard to apply error-correcting mechanisms to adjust for bias. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18258 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:37 zlefin wrote: yes; but at least there would be some of them getting banned. things will be imperfect either way, but which one will yield a better outcome? i'd say i'ts better that none have impunity than that some do. I also think it wouldn't be that hard to do a decent job at limiting the party-line split. it's not THAT hard to apply error-correcting mechanisms to adjust for bias. Give xDaunt and p6 a banhammer each, and watch the mayhem? | ||
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KwarK
United States43867 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:47 Acrofales wrote: Give xDaunt and p6 a banhammer each, and watch the mayhem? I would expect them both to abide by the same self imposed restrictions I do. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:47 Acrofales wrote: Give xDaunt and p6 a banhammer each, and watch the mayhem? or just have someone reasonable apply some sort of point-modifier to their assessment; and adjust the value of that modifier until it provides the proper amount of correction. admittedly a bit harder with fewer directly assessable metrics, and quantization effects due to low numbers happening; but still feasible. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On September 24 2016 00:47 Acrofales wrote: Give xDaunt and p6 a banhammer each, and watch the mayhem? I'd be a great mod in terms of keeping things on point in the discussions, but the problem is that I'd be compelled to be nicer in the US Politics thread with my own posting than I really want to be. I'm not saying that I wouldn't do it, but there's an obvious trade off -- ie my ability to just post regularly would be compromised. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 23 2016 23:51 KwarK wrote: I'd be amazed if he genuinely didn't know why calling black people monkeys is racist. It's not a particularly rare or unusual slur and nor is the history of the pseudoscience of racial Darwinism with black people being less evolved particularly hard to find out about. I don't think anyone is making it to adulthood in the US without finding out that people used to think that black people were biologically inferior subhumans, especially when justifying horrific crimes against them. But if we take a thought experiment of, say, a five year old who knows the word nigger is an insult but has no idea what it means or that it is used specifically against black people. And that five year old calls a black classmate a nigger. I would happily agree that there was no racist intent there but I would absolutely expect them to apologize and not use it again after it has been explained to them why they shouldn't do that. I would not expect the five year old to insist that they're so not racist that they should actually be allowed to call black people niggers and that making a fuss just because the target was black means that everyone else is racist. Of course GGTemplar isn't five and did know why monkeys is not an appropriate insult to use for a black group but even if he didn't he can't claim that he's the least racist person in existence and therefore he deserves special dispensation to use racist slurs because it's not coming from a racist place. I firmly believe that both xDaunt and GGTemplar, if caught in their full hood and robes setting a cross alight on the lawn of a black family, would flatly insist that we can't possibly infer anything from that. xDaunt would say we're all overreacting and that because he knows he's not a racist that by definition means that nothing he does, no matter how similar it is to things racists do, can possibly be racist. Additionally that he alone of all people growing up in a society in which different races are portrayed differently in films, tv shows, the news etc and are treated differently by people and societal institutions, was completely unaffected by that. No matter how many times he witnessed those around him treat black people and white people differently at no point, even as an impressionable child, did any of that impact any of his development and teach him to think in different ways. Meanwhile GGTemplar would be insisting that he burns crosses on the lawns of all his white friends too and that a burning cross can't suddenly become racist just because you put it on the lawn of a black family. Additionally he'd argue that anyone who thought that it was racist because it was directed at a black family is actually the real racist, while continuing to burn the cross. This fucking Trump candidacy man. He normalized this shit and suddenly they all come out of the woodwork and tell us what they really think. I can easily believe he didn't know the monkeys special history on this topic at the outset. It just isn't talked about (go civil rights era!) and literature/history books don't really cover it. It matters who is telling the five year old. As adults, we view the assertion conditioned by the identity of the source. Krugman of NYT called Romney a racist and unfit for the presidency, anti-immigrant and a bully. Well guess how much credibility he has to convince people that Trump is beyond the pale. Similarly in a thread with this degree of left-wing name calling, mud slinging, and general shitposting, who's to know if you're making a legitimate case this time around? I'm going to be awfully generous here. If you show me the trial of xDaunt and GGTemplar where they're convicted of arson while dressed in white sheets, I'll call them racist. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
No one who posts regularly should mod the thread. The fact is, by participating in the thread you often dirty your hands with the vitriol that is common there. I don't consider myself immune from that either, though with some rare exceptions I prefer simply to walk away from the discussion rather than either call someone out for being an ass or continuing with an unproductive thread of discourse. | ||
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KwarK
United States43867 Posts
On September 24 2016 01:44 Danglars wrote: I can easily believe he didn't know the monkeys special history on this topic at the outset. It just isn't talked about (go civil rights era!) and literature/history books don't really cover it. It matters who is telling the five year old. As adults, we view the assertion conditioned by the identity of the source. Krugman of NYT called Romney a racist and unfit for the presidency, anti-immigrant and a bully. Well guess how much credibility he has to convince people that Trump is beyond the pale. Similarly in a thread with this degree of left-wing name calling, mud slinging, and general shitposting, who's to know if you're making a legitimate case this time around? I'm going to be awfully generous here. If you show me the trial of xDaunt and GGTemplar where they're convicted of arson while dressed in white sheets, I'll call them racist. Out of curiousity, and going somewhat off topic by having a discussion here, do you think that it's possible to grow up without picking up any racism within a society with prevalent racism? Consider the example of a child witnessing their parents exhibit increased alertness and caution around black people due to their own unspoken racist beliefs, do you think it's likely that that kind of learned behaviour would be passed on? We're only three generations removed from civil rights and the legalization of interracial marriage throughout the United States. The legality of interracial marriage only achieved majority approval in the United States in 1995 (according to Gallup polls). The owner of the first company I worked at after coming to the US took it over from his grandfather when his grandfather refused to desegregate it (it was strictly whites only until like '67). Even if we assume that there is an imperfect transmission of learned racist beliefs and assumptions I still think that any individual claiming that they hold no racist beliefs or assumptions, even subconsciously, is delusional. Not enough time has passed for that to be the case. That's why I think that the obligation shouldn't be to somehow be immune to all of that, because nobody is and nobody can be, but rather to make a genuine effort to try and notice when you're acting differently because of it and try to correct for that. It's also why I am frustrated by individuals who insist that they need make no effort to correct their own racist behaviour because they know it can't have been racist because they have a unique immunity to passively acquiring latent racism while existing in a society where it is present. We learn about the world from observing how society around us treats the world, there is no filter that lets us only learn the objectively true stuff and screens out shit like racism. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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KwarK
United States43867 Posts
On September 24 2016 02:17 LegalLord wrote: I really wish people would just let this discussion go. Holy fuck. Why don't you just fuck off then. Nobody is making you read this. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On September 24 2016 02:33 KwarK wrote: Why don't you just fuck off then. Nobody is making you read this. lol. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 24 2016 02:33 KwarK wrote: Why don't you just fuck off then. Nobody is making you read this. Possibly because you, among other people, are shitting up the politics thread, and also letting part of that discussion spill over into the feedback thread in a very unproductive way, poisoning a thread that generally does have more reasonable strings of discussion that are worth reading. | ||
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KwarK
United States43867 Posts
On September 24 2016 02:41 LegalLord wrote: Possibly because you, among other people, are shitting up the politics thread, and also letting part of that discussion spill over into the feedback thread in a very unproductive way, poisoning a thread that generally does have more reasonable strings of discussion that are worth reading. Whereas you are just bitching about a discussion that you don't like. If you don't like a discussion don't take part in it. This is a forum, not every single discussion that takes place has to involve you or be pleasing to you. If you see a discussion you don't want to be involved in then simply skip it. Complaining that you're reading stuff that you don't want to read is a really fucking stupid complaint to make to the person writing it. | ||
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