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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
I mean something like 14 gas, 14 pool is hardly a BO, to me it's just an opening that can transition into many things, of course you should memorise and practice those. But something like 4 warpgate all-in I would regard as a build order that you could practice lots and get a good win-rate with, but really limits your ability and understanding if it's the only thing you can do well. | ||
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kingcoyote
United States546 Posts
On October 08 2010 07:18 Nytefish wrote: Actually I'm a bit confused as to what people are referring to when they say a BO. I mean something like 14 gas, 14 pool is hardly a BO, to me it's just an opening that can transition into many things, of course you should memorise and practice those. But something like 4 warpgate all-in I would regard as a build order that you could practice lots and get a good win-rate with, but really limits your ability and understanding if it's the only thing you can do well. When I say BO, I mean I picked something in YABOT and practiced that for awhile. I ended up using the 3 gate robo the most, because I was under the impression that it was a stable, flexible build order that would do fine in all matchups in the lower leagues. I would rigidly build a 9 Pylon, 13 Gateway, 14 Assimilator, etc. This led to me getting up to about 35 supply with great efficiency, and then locking up after that. I would forget my chronoboosts, float, forget to tech up, forget to expand and all that. I was good in the early game, but not because I had skill, merely because I had a sequence of buttons trained. This time around, I started playing it from the other perspective. I'm not ultra concerned about dropping my pool on 13 or anything like that, but much more concerned with thinking about supply and minerals and larva. When I worked that BO, I never got supply capped before 35 and would often get supply capped afterwards. The same goes with money - I kept it ultra low, until I was out of my comfort zone. | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
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kingcoyote
United States546 Posts
On October 08 2010 07:31 Nytefish wrote: I think you pretty much understand what each style of learning does for you already. Yeah, I do, which is why I put this in blogs rather than any of the forums. I was just curious as to the thoughts of others on these different practice styles. The general opinion seems to be focus on BOs, and I'm not sure if they just assume everyone on TL has fundamentals or what, but it definitely didn't work for me. | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2578 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
 Flash)vs BO ( Fantasy)That's the gist of it. The choice is dependent on the desired possibility of play-style(s). | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I would rigidly build a 9 Pylon, 13 Gateway, 14 Assimilator, etc. This led to me getting up to about 35 supply with great efficiency, and then locking up after that. I would forget my chronoboosts, float, forget to tech up, forget to expand and all that. I was good in the early game, but not because I had skill, merely because I had a sequence of buttons trained. The opening of 9pylon 13gate 14gas is merely an opening. This by itself isn't a build order at all. Just this by itself doesn't have any kind of plan. Now you falling apart after the early game is because you don't know what you should be doing because you're going into a game without having a game scheme in your mind. So you can't blame your lack of coherency later on in the game to builds because well, you're not even going into the game with a build in mind. A build won't work to any good sense without the ability to understand the fundamentals of the build. If you understand the fundamentals of the game then you will naturally plan out builds. The two can't be separated at all. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
On October 08 2010 07:02 Nytefish wrote:The better players in the end were simply the ones who had played more. If that is true, isn't it pretty boring? Just compare practice times, and you'll know who's better... Would you say that Jaedong loses to Flash repeatedly just because he's slacking on practice | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
So they're isn't really a difference. | ||
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Terranesque
119 Posts
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
On October 08 2010 07:54 xMiragex wrote: Fundamentals ( Flash)vs BO ( Fantasy)That's the gist of it. The choice is dependent on the desired possibility of play-style(s). i think that's a pretty horrible comparison as you picked perhaps the two terrans with the most flexible playstyles out there fantasy has some kinky BO's from boxer and co, but so does flash flash has some excellent mechanics, but fantasy's is not shabby at all either (the difference only really starts showing late game) i'd say that instead of starting out with solid BO's (especially because the game is still developing!) trying to keep low money and adapting through scouting and game sense until you feel very comfortable with the race will be quite beneficial, and then trying to apply all that you learned to a couple of your favorite BO's. | ||
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Thoreezhea1
United States532 Posts
tpi I think having a good.... general.... bo for many things is good. you'll go far. | ||
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
Also just focusing on your fundamentals (ex: not supply blocked, money low, building workers) is not going to really help you. The only time I do a "fundamentals game" its my first game in a while and im just playing a custom to get my hands going. What I suggest is very simple in concept but leads to far more understanding than any other method and this is how I play. You start with a PLAN. and plan in not a "Build order". It is a plan. An idea that you will try to bring into the game. A plan for me as protoss, could be as simple as, 1. I want 2 bases, 6-8 gateways, and (Insert power unit of choice here). Now that there is a plan, PRACTICE is required to learn what routes there are, which are safer depending on different situations and many other things that can only be gained through practicing this PLAN. Now you aren't bound by any sort of I do XYZ everygame fuck whatever he's doing mindset, and you will learn more from every game through trial and error. | ||
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Carefoot
Canada410 Posts
On October 08 2010 06:31 Borked wrote: Since beta, I didn't really memorized any BO's , yes I know BO's but I always practiced for my fundamentals, when your fundamentals are good enough you can do any BO or tweak them as you like. So I'm in favor of practicing fundamentals. aka everyone should be super flexible and freestyle, use a build if you see fit. ♥ | ||
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Treva
United States533 Posts
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standalone
Norway73 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
2. Without fundamentals you can't execute BOs. A lot of the times, BOs are fundamental intensive. You need to keep track of supply, money count, etc, in order to time your BO just right. Without fundamentals, you're going to be late and get owned later. 3. Fundamentals and BOs are not mutually exclusive. In all honesty, BOs are fundamentals. Therefore: Practice fundamentals in terms of looking at the mini-map, standard micro management, keeping track of food, constant use of MULEs, chrono boost, larva inject. Do all of that before you practice actual BOs. | ||
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RageOverdose
United States690 Posts
BO's in Brood War pretty much map all the fundamentals down to a certain point, then you need to pick it up after the last building mapped for you and you have to know when to expo, when to engage, when to poke, etc. BO's in SC2 are flimsy because the game is still in its learning stages and because maps still need improvement, so things can change anytime. While you need good BO's, you must first have the fundamentals to not only follow up the execution, but to also know how/when to tweak your BO's and to even understand WHY you are doing a certain BO. So work on the fundamentals always. But, also try to balance it with learning BO's too, because they do work together. And really your basics can always be improved over time I think, so never stop thinking about them. | ||
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kingcoyote
United States546 Posts
I know that I'll start stalling out once most of my opponents can macro well, but I still think this practice style has done wonders. As the games proceed, I don't forget my spawn larvas, I don't forget to spend my money, and I don't get supply capped. Working the fundamentals has drilled that timing into me so much better than any BO did with Protoss. All in all, I'm very pleased with this practice method. I'm exciting for diamond league when I start facing people who force me to focus other areas, because when that time comes, my fundamentals will still be subconscious. | ||
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