[D]Mules Vs. Chronoboost: An Objective Analysis

On October 07 2010 07:48 FrodaN wrote:
I believe there are a few things you might've overlooked:

- Orbital commands cost 150 minerals to make.
- Morphing into OCs take time, reducing available time to make more SCVs.
- OCs also have other features that can "save" resources. i.e. Supply dropping when there are limited resources left on the map is more valuable than a MULE.
- MULEs are free. Probes are 50 resources.
- Chronoboost is only 25 energy versus MULEs are 50.
- SCVs need to actually build the buildings versus probes can go back to mining.

Not sure how it overall impacts the results, but still some factors to consider.

On October 07 2010 07:48 FrodaN wrote:
I believe there are a few things you might've overlooked:

- Orbital commands cost 150 minerals to make.
- Morphing into OCs take time, reducing available time to make more SCVs.
- OCs also have other features that can "save" resources. i.e. Supply dropping when there are limited resources left on the map is more valuable than a MULE.
- MULEs are free. Probes are 50 resources.
- Chronoboost is only 25 energy versus MULEs are 50.
- SCVs need to actually build the buildings versus probes can go back to mining.

Not sure how it overall impacts the results, but still some factors to consider.

Well, in that they are the only two abilities each race has to directly increase their income, I felt there was enough overlap to make it worth looking at how each affects income. And just doing it on paper is pretty tough, because CB effect is hard to quantify in numbers.

Anyways, in regards to the problems:

1. I think (don't quote me on this) that an SCV harvests about 1 mineral per game second. It might be slightly less, but for some rough sums, it's accurate enough. At about 10 minutes game time on 2 bases, you've got about 17 more buildings than I had in that replay. (8 depots, 5 production buildings, 3 tech/upgrade buildings, 2 turrets) The extra buildtime required is around 900 seconds. So thats about an extra 800-900 minerals less than I had harvested. (I'm not counting the travel time, the protoss has that too)

2. 3 scans about 10 minutes in seems pretty reasonable. Call that another 800 minerals lost.

So the question would be, would using, say, 8 chronoboosts on something other than probes by the 10 minute mark drop your total harvested income by about 1700 or so minerals. Lets say that's 4 probes less over 300 or so seconds of harvesting, putting it at about 1200 minerals less than harvested in the "Perfect economical scenario", but you've spent 200 less on probes. It's roughly even between 1/2 and 3.

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So, if , in the Perfect Economical Scenario, the Protoss comes out ahead in minerals, it might explain why a marauder can beat a stalker in a one on one a-move situation.

Firstly, Mules only start edging out ahead, in the way you describe, once you hit 3 fully saturated bases. That's pretty much the magic number. Any more SCV's and your army size is hurting far too much. Honestly, how many games do you play where you actually have the time to get 3 fully saturated mineral line? With battles/harrass and so on, that's like 20 minutes into the game. Like, 15% of my games actually reach that point. (and I'm not even going to try talking about the Bronze-Gold avearge of turtling on 2 bases for about 30 minutes every game. That's so far from the optimal way to play that trying to discuss balance around it is doomed to fail.)

Second point, I'm going to go all Day9 here. You could say

"chronoboost out that zealot, then that stalker, then oh no, need to chronoboost out that next stalker, damn I'm behind, need to chronoboost out that sentry, oh dear, so many marines, I'd best chronoboost out that stalker."

Or you could say

"chronoboost out that stalker for reapers, chronoboost the warp gate (because it's about the best upgrade in the game, it's so important) then just flat out CB probes, so that by the time he attacks, I've had enough extra minerals to buy 4 extra zealots."

You could CB out units, or you could CB probes and just have more stuff.

Well as you said (and I'm assuming this is what you meant) 5 CB on a nexus = 1 OC.

And I'd say this is roughly right. If a terran player is muleing constantly, then 6 CB roughly equals the OC, because none stop muleing means a nonstop mule that's worth about 3 scvs. However, once you do something with that energy that's not a mule, the lifetime average "SCV worth" of that OC goes down. If it spend 10% of it's time not muleing, the OC is now only worth 2.7 SCVs.

So, in a real game situation, you should start seeing a profit over the mule on the 6th CB on the nexus.

And to the second point. Don't forget that it takes time (about 2 scv's worth of time) to actually make the OC. But I will agree, there might be a small window of opportunity around 30 supply where the terrans income might be more, but I think the word there is "small". Not sure if that information would be of much use.

I'm glad you brought that up. (Yes I was totally waiting for someone to bring that up. Sad, I know. )

Saving up mules to drop on an expo is risky. In the time it takes to save up, lets say, 6 mules, that's 6 mules worth of minerals you're not spending on your army. This makes it a gamble. (eg, by the time you mule the gold, you're missing out on about 1600 minerals. Thats 32 marines not in your army by the time you start muleing the gold. That's HUUUUUGE)

6 mules off 2 OC's is 270 seconds of no muleing. That's 270 seconds where your army size is smaller than if you had used the mules. (If you're macroing properly).

Then, once you drop the mules, it takes 162 seconds (roughly) to break even in minerals.

That's 332 seconds of a mineral defecit. And then, once you are into the profit, it will take even more time to utilise that profit to make your army actually bigger than it would have been, had you not bothered saving the mules up.

So six minutes where your army is smaller that is should be for a somewhat larger army after that six minutes is a pretty big gamble. 6 minutes a vast amount of time in SC2.

On October 07 2010 08:12 learning wrote:
The MULE is never called OP in the early game (1 MULE at a time, very astute energy management, etc).
The situations when a MULE is "OP" is when both players are limited to 1 base either by force or by choice, and in the very late game when your multiple OCs have spare energy reserves used to 'multi-MULE' on gold expansions or after losing every single one of your SCVs to resaturate.

The MULE supersaturates mineral lines, thus, on 1 base versus P or Z, Terran has a higher income rate, allowing him to produce more units/tech than either other race in the same situation.

The MULE does not cost supply (I think it should cost 2 supply while its alive)

The MULE ensures that vs. a T you shouldn't base race and hope to win, provided the base race is even.
+ Show Spoiler +

Disregarding floating buildings, if both players lose all their minerals and all their workers, the Terran player will win because he has MULEs.

The above are the complaints about the MULE, not the facts you just spent a lot of time testing.

It is very handy information however, and points out how important getting a 2nd base is for both Zerg and Protoss when playing against T.

Thanks for putting the effort into this.

On October 07 2010 07:59 Legion.217 wrote:
You are ignoring too many other factors. Let me list a few.

1: Terarn units are more cost effective than protoss units, therefor, in order for a protoss to be competetive, we need more (at least if you think in terms of early game 3 rax bio vs 4 gate).

2: A protoss simply cannot use chrono on probes only and remain in a game. Chronoboosting things like warp gate are a must. If a protss doesn't have warp tech up by the time a terran pushes them in a standard ~50 food push or so, they should lose. A terran would only NEED to scan if their scouting is completely denied. Now granted, you will say "but a protoss gets observers to scout". True, but spending 200/100 + 50/100 JUST for a scout is far far far more than you pay for a scan, since gas is much more precious. Granted, that observer is permanent (unless you scan it and kill it, in which case you have probably come out a little bit ahead, but unless you are doign something very sneaky is it worth it?)

3: 10 minutes, or 60 workers, is a very very very poor measure. Most 1 base timing attacks come at around 7-9 minutes in, and it is unlikely that either player would have an expansion up unless one did a risky FE.

4: I can see how the constant chrono would snowball the protoss economy eventually (and it should, protoss is more expensive to maintain and burns through units and resources faster, that is one of the traits of the race), but the fact is, protoss cannot use chrono on probes exclusively. The timings of various research etc are based around having chrono available to get them up. Have you ever tried getting up storm tech or amulet research without chronoing it? How about Thermal lance? How about charge for zealots? All of these are common counters to the terran beast, and all of them have insanely long research times in comparison to things like stim, siege tank reserach, conc shells, combat shield etc. Protoss research and tech really needs to be chrono boosted, or it will not be out in a timely manner. Many games i have won or lost b/c i didn't havea choronoboost to finish a research, or i had enough to research it and then won.

In short, this study, while i understand it's intent, is fundamentally flawed and cannot account for real game balance and play. The fact is, protoss economy needs to be stronger than Terrans to account for terrans more cost effective units. This is a design of the game, and gives flavor and texture to it. The problem is, Protoss simply can't ONLY use chrono on probes. If they do it is almsot assuredly a loss. Also note, that the economic boost terran receives early on from a mule is HUGE, while the economic boost protoss gets from boosting probes is more of a long term boost, and only pays dividends later on once said probes have paid for themselves.

Exciting thread...needs some actually analysis though,
1 mule-90 seconds, equivalent of about 4.5 SCV's mining (42$/min per SCV = 189$/min, high estimate of mule yield, but since diminishing returns are present, seems viable)

In 90 seconds: 2 chronoboosts can go off (energy regeneration rates)--a reduction of about 13 seconds of probe production, so Protoss gets 3/4 more probes than a terran during the time 1 mule is used; since the probes are permanent, after about 540 seconds, Protoss has enough probes to make up for the usage of a mule...assuming a place to saturate with them, and mules/chronoboosts are used once enough energy is present.

Essentially: mules can provide a boost at the early game, but protoss has the ability to overtake that boost by the 9:00 mark with diligent chronoboosting of probes.

This is somewhat fuzzy but seems to make sense, assuming all chronoboosts are used on probes up until the 9 min mark.

So...mules aren't OP, they're just good to have, just like chronoboost is good to have, they are built-in mechanics of the game, undoubtedly balanced around each other with seemingly great effectiveness.