Power Rank 08/04/2009 - Page 8
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On August 05 2009 07:39 Djabanete wrote: He looked a hell of a lot better than SkyHigh, who graces the current ranking and who lost to the same player in the same league. (And this was before the PL playoffs even started.) SkyHigh was busy 2-0ing Leta and soundly defeating Hiya, Lomo, Fantasy and Great while flash made his run this month | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:28 EvoChamber wrote: Au contraire, TwoTone. Bisu's PvZ is far and away the best PvZ among Protoss, but right now it's his worst matchup of the three. His straight-up PvT is practically unbeatable so long as he keeps his patience; likewise with his PvP. The subtle metagame shift (both mental and tactical) that's taken place in PvZ since Yellow won on Heartbreak has put all Protoss in a bad spot, and even Bisu is no exception. Well I meant statistically. | ||
Lebesgue
4541 Posts
Maybe PvT is Bisu's weakest match-up but it is not weak by any measure. He looked really good in it for good few months. And why should we discount that loss purely on that fact while all the important losses of Flash this season are also in his weakest match-up. Iris is hot, and looks good in all match-ups. If Flash wins the final he should get all the credit he deserves. It just really seems JWD puts way too much emphasis on last month performance. And as mentioned by EvoChamber he is more lenient towards some players than the others. In a month like this when so few games are played and some players can't play as much as the others because of their teams one shouldn't put so much weight on only recent games. | ||
Lebesgue
4541 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:29 d(O.o)a wrote: SkyHigh was busy 2-0ing Leta and soundly defeating Hiya, Lomo, Fantasy and Great while flash made his run this month And losing to Stork. Also Flash didn't play much because his team sucks! Compare Skyhigh's individual achievements in proleague and Flash. If Skyhigh performed as well as Flash than it would be CJ waiting for OZ in the final. Bisu doesn't play many games and he gets the benefit of doubt. Flash doesn't play that many games and he is dropped out of PR. And where is skyhigh in the individual leagues. I haven't seen him around... | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7675 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: Vasoline, no need to spoil in PR threads. It's understood that recent games will be talked about here. Anyhow, while I kind of support the "You guys are idiots for thinking Flash did badly" committee, that last bit of your post, Vasoline, is two different match ups. PvT is Bisu's weakest game and he put up a valiant series against an on fire Iris. On the other hand, TvT is Flash's best match up and even if he 3-1's Iris it's just not the same situation. I guess that's true TwoTone. It's just that I figure if Flash won 3-1 or 3-0 (before this Bisu series) people would have just been "omg yeah against Iris! No shit. Too bad Effort didn't advance and then we would have had a real finals." Because some people just don't want to give Flash cred. It's not so much about the matchup, it's about the determination we're seeing in Iris. Clearly he isn't a player who is going to just roll over and lose. The games he beat Bisu in were long macro games, (minus game 1).. and it shows that he's not a washed up player by any means. On some level I'm actually kind of afraid Iris can take Flash 3-2.. but then I remember, it's Flash TvT.. and in my mind Flash is the best Terran.. in a best of 5. And I don't see it happening. Anyways, I guess none of that really matters. I just feel like dropping Flash from the list was a little bit foolish, sort of showed some bias for teams that do well over teams that dont, and sells short Flash's talent for the chance to be a little controversial with the rank. In the end, it's JWD's rank, I'm just throwing in my 2 cents. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 05 2009 04:58 EvoChamber wrote: Never said that, straw man argument, no need to reply. You're calling GOM absolutely worthless, I'm saying it's worth something. If it's worthless, why does Tadzio even bother writing his news reports? I'll straw-man argument you! Tadzio writes the news reports because GOM is an entertaining tournament to follow not because he thinks it's in any way a good indicator of player strength. If players don't practice for GOM, why should we factor it into the PR at all? Canata has not shown any kind of "spark" as a progamer for quite some time. Even when his play is effective as it was in the MSL/OSL ro16, it's economy-based, uninspired and uninspiring. It's oov with a vasectomy. When I say special skills, I'm clearly not talking about them with regards to you or me or even Idra and ret, but with regards to the best progamers, the people that populate the power rank. Canata has a past reaching back four or five years, but it's one of disappointed hopes. Two months ago he was boring but produced results in two leagues, and so he deserved his PR ranking. Last month he lost in both leagues. Soon he'll be over the hill. I don't like him and I don't dislike him. I do dislike his rise in the most recent PR, which is unwarranted. Is it not possible for Canata to be better now than at any point in his career? I'm not. I'm saying the reasons Bisu stays where he is should be applied to Flash, and that he should also be on the PR, and that the fact that Flash isn't on the PR is indicative of a general problem with the way these PRs are written. They were applied to Flash - Bisu advanced in his starleague, and Flash dropped out of his. Bisu advanced against a tremendous player, while Flash lost to a supposably inferior one. Yes, they have been well received, and there's nothing bad about them. When the number of games and contestants for the league titles drop to the size they are now, though, the weaknesses in JWD's method start to show. Calm is at #4 this month because he's beat Effort, and their ace match failures in PL supposedly even out. Nevertheless, I believe that a strong majority of TL would agree that Effort is not just the better player right now, but the one with the stronger foundation and the brighter future. By comparison, by.hero made the OSL semis last season while Steve was still writing and only reached #8 on the PR. Ok, but EffOrt had a big losing streak towards the end of the month, and lost to Calm directly. Who cares if EffOrt is the better player, on August 2nd, 2009, Calm was playing better. Nobody is saying that Calm is better than EffOrt. But JWD is saying that Calm is playing better than EffOrt at this point in time. There's been something off about JWD's power ranks (1) (not so much the placements as the (2) thinking behind them) since he started composing them. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who felt this way, or the only one who couldn't figure out exactly what was so bugging about them. It's only when the (3) leagues reach this point that the flaws in his system could become so apparent that they could be named. JWD's power ranks will be accurate in the early and mid-season and (4) misleading in the late season, because his method places far too much emphasis on the month at hand and too little emphasis on past record (long-term) and future potential. My argument takes a while to read. (5) The style is legal, almost constipated; I apologize. But it isn't unclear; the (6) details I cite are definite, and the pattern that they form is real. If you still can't understand what I'm saying, then the problem is with you, not me. Here's what I don't understand: 1) You clearly have a problem with the placements, yet you say they're not a problem. 2) Can't the reason for one player's position possibly be different than the reason for another player's position? 3) Why does it matter when the leagues reach this point? Because less games are played, so JWD's impression of the importance of certain results over other results becomes apparent? 4) Misleading? What's so misleading? Is there a fear that somehow a new TL member might accidentally think that Calm > EffOrt? We're not dealing with facts, we're dealing with learned opinions based upon facts. 5) You're a good writer, I'm not arguing your grammar. I'm arguing the content of your argument. 6) Details like; "Even if JWD had absolutely had to place a T1 Terran at #6, he could have put iloveoov without anyone disputing it; without his strategic genius behind both Canata and Fantasy, they would both be mediocrities." are concrete? *** Look; there obviously isn't a formula for these things. It's after the collection of all the facts, and a healthy period of educated analysis, that the PR writer comes up with his list. Obviously different writers use different approaches. But the PR is a list of who is playing the best starcraft right now, and since it's monthly, the most recent and accurate results have come from the last month. You can't fault JWD for choosing weighting these results more heavily than previous ranks. It's simply a methodology. The way I see it, you either need to show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. Hell, I don't think anybody does 100%. But to allege any number of biases, is simply to miss the point- different players earn their places on the PR for different reasons. Sometimes it's because they played well, even if they lost (see: JangBi two months ago, and Leta in this month's CNBC), sometimes it's because they played well recently (see EffOrt when he was #1, and Violet, and Calm) Sometimes it's because they advanced in starleagues (see: Canata). Sometimes, (and here's the kicker) it's for multiple reasons. The nature of the PR is to compare apples and oranges, and there's nothing we can do about it, except debate and discuss. But really, we all simply have to deal with it. | ||
EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all. b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice. | ||
Vasoline73
United States7675 Posts
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B1nary
Canada1267 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:46 tree.hugger wrote: Look; there obviously isn't a formula for these things. Actually, I think there is a formula. It is as follows: 1) Keep some of the top players at the top to establish legitimacy (Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy). 2) Introduce some newcomers to generate hype (Calm, TheZerg (lul...)). 3) Boost a player much, much higher than he should be spark debate (Canata, Zero). 4) To perfect the formula, drop a top player off entirely to get the fanboys flaming. Honestly, I'm fine with the first 3. I would rather have some newcomers every month rather than see the same 10 guys in mildly differing permutations. I like the debate in PR threads, since they have a higher fan/fanboy ratio than usual. But I find #4 completely unacceptable. | ||
luckybeni2
Germany1065 Posts
On August 05 2009 07:05 Severedevil wrote: Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat. You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Flash makes a comeback that puts JD/Bisu's comebacks to shame? Obviously the other player threw the game. FBH? Threw the game! July? Threw the game! Shuttle? Threw the game! Man everyone just loves throwing their games against Flash. People don't want to give credit to Flash because, even when he does well, they expect more. They expect him to be so good that he should always be ahead in a match, instead of staging a comeback. Even when he rolls someone, people delude themselves into saying "wow what a turtle just builds up an army and moves out," etc. Flash is like the tiny, 17 year old korean version of Rodney Dangerfield here. | ||
Severedevil
United States4798 Posts
On August 05 2009 09:48 luckybeni2 wrote: You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata. LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 05 2009 09:55 Severedevil wrote: LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off. I should just superimpose Flash's face on a picture of the late Mr. Dangerfield at this point. | ||
Lebesgue
4541 Posts
On August 05 2009 09:55 Severedevil wrote: LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off. Go and watch again the games. Especially the one on the Heartbreak Ridge. I was amazed by Flash control of his MnM army. There was a moment that his main army was surrounded by 3 dark swarms and balancing between these he was repelling attack after attack. Also his use of vessels was amazing. I remember when people where saying that he lost lost of vessels but as usually they forgot to mention that Flash was trading his vessels for defilers and it was the winning move. Seriously, that was a great series. If I could complain about July's play I would mention his 3rd game. But I think even Flash said that July became really impatient after the first 2 games and didn't follow his strategy till the end... I hate when people look at a particular game of a BoX series without keeping in mind a whole picture. People at TL really like to forget that the game is as much about skill as about having strong mind. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32251 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:36 Lebesgue wrote: And losing to Stork. Also Flash didn't play much because his team sucks! Compare Skyhigh's individual achievements in proleague and Flash. If Skyhigh performed as well as Flash than it would be CJ waiting for OZ in the final. Bisu doesn't play many games and he gets the benefit of doubt. Flash doesn't play that many games and he is dropped out of PR. And where is skyhigh in the individual leagues. I haven't seen him around... lol, sKyHigh is not the ace of his team, who know what would have happened with him if he was chosen to ace for CJ? That's like talking of how Flash would have so more wins if KT qualified for playoffs, they didn't. sKyHigh has been defeating good players and lost 1 game to stork, who is good at PvT, in a map with a backwards ramp, with late siege. Stork builds countered sKyHigh's completely. The same way EffOrt lost by going 12 hatch. Bad decision? yeah maybe, just like how Flash goes 14cc and dies without even fighting. But you don't see us writing huge rants about Flash being in the power ranks in the last months when Flash lost to that stupid shit. I mean I can't even believe you are complaining of a 9-1 record. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32251 Posts
ps: bring it! lol | ||
ChaseR
Norway1004 Posts
I looked at the power rank and was like...Holy shit where the fuck is Flash? Then on the other hand Leta failed pretty hard this month as well | ||
EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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