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United States1753 Posts
On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018
Can you provide concrete evidence that KeSPA era Code S was harder than any tournament Rogue won or is this one of those "i'll just say whatever I want and claim its an established fact" things?
For those who will read to much into this: It's a thought experiment............
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Northern Ireland22794 Posts
On March 01 2024 20:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Agreed @Gilgamesh_ @Ciaus237
I'm sure many people here have committed some kind of crime, state or federal, perhaps when younger and dumber, or something that others here would consider morally wrong.
I forgot how young Life was. This isn't like he killed someone, where the person can never be brought back
Sure people betting money lost lots of money, but it's still completely different
The purpose of punishment isn't to cancel people forever, or else the sentence would be a life in jail for anything
Once his punishment is dealt and over, everyone should hope (and heck, even support) their re-integration into society as an upstanding person. What's the point in hoping that someone you see was a monster, stay a monster? That's pretty gross, and completely unbeneficial and unproductive
And regarding his wins not being wins, it's not like he was fixing opponents to give free wins to him, he was just being paid money to throw games. So anything he won, he won (unless if facing another matchfixer).
In the pantheon of sports cheating, aside from a systemic doping program like we’ve seen Russia be banned from athletics competitions for years, or what used to be common in cycling, match fixing is as bad as one can do.
You rip the whole fabric of competition apart, more so than an individual cheating to win in various ways. At least when an individual cheats to win at gets caught, they’re cheating to get an advantage over other folks trying to win, you maybe question some of that individual’s results achieved but not the wider competition.
When multiple people start throwing games, it has a ripple effect that has one questioning the whole competition, including the results of players who aren’t involved in fixing in any way.
It’s why it’s such an insidious practice, let’s just say it turns out in hypothetical land that Proleague was absolutely, hugely rife with match fixing over its run. How can one have a discussion about GOATs with recourse to stats and feats if you can’t have confidence in the competition having that integrity at its base?
I’m in agreement that Life shouldn’t be burned at the stake, he’s done his time and in the wider scheme of things there are many, many worse crimes out there. Guy was young and I’m a big believer in rehabilitation, 100%
On the flipside I can’t really think of a better punishment than currently exists as per StarCraft specially. Life did a ton of damage to pro StarCraft, ergo Life is banned from pro StarCraft and his name is akin to Voldemort’s. You can’t really get much harsher, and more lenient the punishment doesn’t really fit the crime. I mean Life was a direct contributor to people losing their jobs here, so him returning to SC2 to me would feel rather unfair to those folks.
The worst part of folks defending Life is they’re defending Life just because he’s actually a top tier player, which is precisely why his involvement was by far the least justifiable. Like Savior before him, he was amongst the very best. He was actually earning decent money as a progamer.
The other pros involved were also young, busting their ass to make it but didn’t have either the talent or some other factor to quite break into the top tier. They weren’t earning the kind of cash Life was, they hadn’t achieved the glory he did, nor the prestige of being a fan favourite. Far more explicable that they were tempted here than the guy none of that applies to.
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On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018
If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc).
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On March 02 2024 02:04 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 Can you provide concrete evidence that KeSPA era Code S was harder than any tournament Rogue won or is this one of those "i'll just say whatever I want and claim its an established fact" things? For those who will read to much into this: It's a thought experiment............
"Becozz mose compeddedidiv era brah"
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On March 02 2024 02:04 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 Can you provide concrete evidence that KeSPA era Code S was harder than any tournament Rogue won or is this one of those "i'll just say whatever I want and claim its an established fact" things? For those who will read to much into this: It's a thought experiment............
You have done that yourself already so your comment honestly surprises me
On July 03 2023 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2023 02:16 Charoisaur wrote:
I think the thing with players appearing more stable is just a result of there just being far fewer players, which means there are fewer players who can threaten the top guys.
In 2015 there were like 12 championship contenders, at least 12 more players who can beat any player on a good day but aren't quite contenders themselves and then the players who mostly lost in the first rounds of any given tournament.
And players who belonged to the first category rarely lost to the players in the third category even back then.
Nothing has changed about that, but there are just far fewer players in each of the categories and players belonging to the latter category can now make strong runs with a bit of bracket luck. Case in point—these are the groups from SSL Season 3 in 2015. ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/group_stage.jpg) At this point, Classic had won GSL and SSL, Rain had won GSL, Dream had been in 2 SSL finals, Dear had won GSL, herO would go on to win this season, INnoVation would win his second Code S by the end of 2015, Life was a top 2 player in the world in Season 1 of 2015, sOs was a few months away fro winning his second Blizzcon, ByuL was busy making the finals of SSL/GSL three times in like five or six months? Zest was Zest and Maru was Maru. There are 11 Individual League finalists among these 16 players, most of whom won big events that very year. As for the other five, TY, Rogue and Stats would go won to win Code S. It's a remarkable assemblage of talent. I miss it, but less than I did in prior years. The games are extremely high level these days and there are plenty of players playing great StarCraft.
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Northern Ireland22794 Posts
On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments.If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
While in an ideal world this is somewhat true, equally by necessity that was how top level SC2 had to be played for a period enforced by external circumstances.
The fields of these tournaments were bloody strong, Maru did very well in this period. Trap moved the needle from being a very good player to a truly great player. To me it’s a bit arbitrary just scrubbing that whole period from the record.
As I’ve said before, depending on how you weight things one can place Rogue above Maru or Serral, but I don’t see a way of placing him above both without adding a bunch of arbitrary caveats.
Maru has the better HoTS career, more Starleagues, but Rogue has his World Championships, so if you value the latter extremely highly he can place above Maru. But by that weighting, Serral equals Rogue with way more tournament wins and placements and he wins the numbers argument. Sure Rogue can place above Serral if you weight Starleagues highly, but as mentioned earlier Maru beats him on that metric.
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On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc).
It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players.
Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event.
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United States1753 Posts
On March 02 2024 02:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 02:04 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 Can you provide concrete evidence that KeSPA era Code S was harder than any tournament Rogue won or is this one of those "i'll just say whatever I want and claim its an established fact" things? For those who will read to much into this: It's a thought experiment............ You have done that yourself already so your comment honestly surprises me Show nested quote +On July 03 2023 03:14 Mizenhauer wrote:On July 03 2023 02:16 Charoisaur wrote:
I think the thing with players appearing more stable is just a result of there just being far fewer players, which means there are fewer players who can threaten the top guys.
In 2015 there were like 12 championship contenders, at least 12 more players who can beat any player on a good day but aren't quite contenders themselves and then the players who mostly lost in the first rounds of any given tournament.
And players who belonged to the first category rarely lost to the players in the third category even back then.
Nothing has changed about that, but there are just far fewer players in each of the categories and players belonging to the latter category can now make strong runs with a bit of bracket luck. Case in point—these are the groups from SSL Season 3 in 2015. At this point, Classic had won GSL and SSL, Rain had won GSL, Dream had been in 2 SSL finals, Dear had won GSL, herO would go on to win this season, INnoVation would win his second Code S by the end of 2015, Life was a top 2 player in the world in Season 1 of 2015, sOs was a few months away fro winning his second Blizzcon, ByuL was busy making the finals of SSL/GSL three times in like five or six months? Zest was Zest and Maru was Maru. There are 11 Individual League finalists among these 16 players, most of whom won big events that very year. As for the other five, TY, Rogue and Stats would go won to win Code S. It's a remarkable assemblage of talent. I miss it, but less than I did in prior years. The games are extremely high level these days and there are plenty of players playing great StarCraft.
This is a great example of how hard it was and I agree with you 100% in that regard.
I think we're both correct in this situation, but I have always wondered how much having 13 great players matters when herO played no more than five of them. I personally think it does and the overall quality has to mean something, but would the event be all that different if you replaced the people who were eliminated in the r16 with random tl.net users, but retained TY, Rogue, Rain, MyuNgSiK. herO, Inno, Byul and Zest? It's obviously less difficult (due to strength of opponent), but it's a challenge to pin down what the r32 fodder players added to Code S during HotS. There are plenty of examples of great players losing in the r32 back then, but that's been a constant throughout the game's history.
Sadly, to capture the true nuance requires more time than should realistically be spent on a forum post. Just looking at that post of mine, it's clear I'm missing out on a lot of context and if it were part of an article it would have gotten way more attention in the editing stages.
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On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event.
I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't.
My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd.
In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much.
But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic?
Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
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On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players.
The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players.
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On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players.
"...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players."
I wouldn't say "a lot."
A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed.
People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances.
Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved."
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On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players.
So basically sOs and PartinG (I'm surprised about that honestly, you learn something new every day). Mixing the three foreigners into this doesn't feel that convincing (I'm not even sure if Oliveira ever tried GSL? I think so but not certain).
Rogue, Dark, Mvp, the matchfixers and ByuN however did manage to win atleast one GSL. But even if you would include the three and make it a 5:5 ratio...if you reverse that for GSL-winners...
Of course that is to expected considering that you have multiple GSLs vs. only one (or at best two) World Cups per year, I get that. But that alone raises the stakes considerably. You can always win the next GSL, but even making it to the next World Cup was actually quite a feat, considering that (as a korean) you had to do well in GSL/SSL/whatever for an entire year. Even Maru missed out multiple BlizzCons, that is how hard it was to even qualify to that damn thing.
Oh whoops, forgot: You are also correct that it is hard to compare players of different eras. But isn't that effectively what a GOAT-list is and also what you are doing? If you say "I rate anything that happened 2013-216 than anything else" that is exactly that. If someone else says the same but goes the other extreme and says "Only stuff after 2018 counts", you can flush a good chunk of this Top 10 down the toilet. Because then you HAVE to include players like Reynor, no way around it
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On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved."
You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller
On March 02 2024 04:40 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. Oh whoops, forgot: You are also correct that it is hard to compare players of different eras. But isn't that effectively what a GOAT-list is and also what you are doing? If you say "I rate anything that happened 2013-216 than anything else" that is exactly that. If someone else says the same but goes the other extreme and says "Only stuff after 2018 counts", you can flush a good chunk of this Top 10 down the toilet. Because then you HAVE to include players like Reynor, no way around it
You can compare accomplishments but not skill. First off, how would you even measure that the skill has increased given that the players are playing a vastly different game? Second, how do you determine what's more impressive - figuring out everything by yourself and pioneering the metagame ala Mvp or copying the builds others have created and iterate them to perfection ala Serral. You can only compare the skill level of players compared to the players they were facing.
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On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller
I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On March 02 2024 04:59 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:
[quote]
While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance.
To copy from my previous comments:
Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion.
Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion
Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages.
Also, for comparison:
Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion.
If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying.
You are committing the grave mistake of comparing "skill", something utterly meaningless when there are only like 8 players in today's scene who's level of play has an argument to be above that of HotS/early LotV era. Actually, less than 8, Dark himself would not buy that claim.
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On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:40 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. Oh whoops, forgot: You are also correct that it is hard to compare players of different eras. But isn't that effectively what a GOAT-list is and also what you are doing? If you say "I rate anything that happened 2013-216 than anything else" that is exactly that. If someone else says the same but goes the other extreme and says "Only stuff after 2018 counts", you can flush a good chunk of this Top 10 down the toilet. Because then you HAVE to include players like Reynor, no way around it You can compare accomplishments but not skill. First off, how would you even measure that the skill has increased given that the players are playing a vastly different game? Second, how do you determine what's more impressive - figuring out everything by yourself and pioneering the metagame ala Mvp or copying the builds others have created and iterate them to perfection ala Serral. You can only compare the skill level of players compared to the players they were facing.
There are several metrics. APMs have increased all across the board, and quite significantly. Armies became much more complex, which made it much harder to control. There's a far greater degree of proliferation of creep spread, where spreading creep is harder than it used to be. There's a lot more burrow play, which is APM intensive. Ghosts became the norm, and they require a lot of APM and attention to babysit and keep alive.
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United States1753 Posts
On March 02 2024 04:59 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:
[quote]
While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance.
To copy from my previous comments:
Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion.
Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion
Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages.
Also, for comparison:
Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion.
If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.) Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying.
I hope I don't blow your mind with this. But, how skilled people were in 2013 versus the present really has no bearing on anything if you're willing to be objective. You don't play against a machine in StarCraft II (unless it's Inno), you play against the other player. If those two players are of are equal skill, it doesn't matter if it's 2010, 2013,2015, 2020, 2023, they still have to play at their best to beat their opponent's best. You can argue that no one knew how to play the game when Mvp won his championships, but he was working with the same information, units and tools as everyone else and he was kicking the sh*t out of them.
Once you get into the subjective realm of making direct comparisons across dozens of balance patches, multiple expansions and as many as 14 years, you've already undermined your own position.
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On March 02 2024 05:06 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:59 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
[quote]
But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments.
If we only take premier offline tournaments :
Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest).
Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships.
This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying. You are committing the grave mistake of comparing "skill", something utterly meaningless when there are only like 8 players in today's scene who's level of play has an argument to be above that of HotS/early LotV era. Actually, less than 8, Dark himself would not buy that claim.
"Grave mistake." Lol Oh nooo, they're comin to git me!
We don't need more players of the caliber of Heromarines, Showtime, Classic, DRG, etc. to be in the scene to know that the top5 players are what they are. I don't know what Dark said about his own skill, but reality doesn't revolve around his opinion. He may very well be worse than before. In fact, based on his Aligulac and tournament results in recent years, there's an argument for that claim. However, more likely is that he just couldn't keep up with his contemporaries, who'd still been improving rapidly while he improved less rapidly.
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On March 02 2024 05:10 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:59 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
[quote]
But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments.
If we only take premier offline tournaments :
Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest).
Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships.
This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying. I hope I don't blow your mind with this. But, how skilled people were in 2013 versus the present really has no bearing on anything if you're willing to be objective. You don't play against a machine in StarCraft II (unless it's Inno), you play against the other player. If those two players are of are equal skill, it doesn't matter if it's 2010, 2013,2015, 2020, 2023, they still have to play at their best to beat their opponent's best. You can argue that no one knew how to play the game when Mvp won his championships, but he was working with the same information, units and tools as everyone else and he was kicking the sh*t out of them. Once you get into the subjective realm of making direct comparisons across dozens of balance patches, multiple expansions and as many as 14 years, you've already undermined your own position.
You're not blowing my mind, because this is the argument that had been brought up before.
Here's what that might blow yours. SC2 is a very recent invention. It isn't like physical sports, which had been established for many decades, and where it was largely peak-condition adults competing against other peak-condition adults. They were individuals who had fully realized their physical potential based on their contemporary knowledge of training and their sport. SC2, and esports in general, between 2010-2016 was rapidly evolving, and some of the competitors couldn't even legally drive. Their brains had another 10 years left to fully develop. The rapid evolution of the game also means that a lot of crazy builds and ideas could "work," when objectively they were bad strategies. But listen, if any of these players were clear outlier for multiple years, then that's another thing, but none of them had this kind of broken-level consistent domination to speculate that they'd continue to be outliers much later on post-2016.
If you think that level of competition in the early 2010s is so interesting and carries that much weight, then fine, whatever. Everybody is allowed their own arbitrary qualifiers of greatness. I just don't think this is a particularly interesting period of competition.
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Northern Ireland22794 Posts
On March 02 2024 05:32 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 05:10 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 02 2024 04:59 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won.
Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying. I hope I don't blow your mind with this. But, how skilled people were in 2013 versus the present really has no bearing on anything if you're willing to be objective. You don't play against a machine in StarCraft II (unless it's Inno), you play against the other player. If those two players are of are equal skill, it doesn't matter if it's 2010, 2013,2015, 2020, 2023, they still have to play at their best to beat their opponent's best. You can argue that no one knew how to play the game when Mvp won his championships, but he was working with the same information, units and tools as everyone else and he was kicking the sh*t out of them. Once you get into the subjective realm of making direct comparisons across dozens of balance patches, multiple expansions and as many as 14 years, you've already undermined your own position. You're not blowing my mind, because this is the argument that had been brought up before. Here's what that might blow yours. SC2 is a very recent invention. It isn't like physical sports, which had been established for many decades, and where it was largely peak-condition adults competing against other peak-condition adults. They were individuals who had fully realized their physical potential based on their contemporary knowledge of training and their sport. SC2, and esports in general, between 2010-2016 was rapidly evolving, and the people competing for the most part couldn't even legally drive. Their brains had at least 10 years left to fully develop. The rapid evolution of the game also means that a lot of crazy builds and ideas could "work," when objectively they were bad strategies. But listen, if any of these players were clear outlier for multiple years, then that's another thing, but none of them had this kind of broken-level consistent domination to speculate that they'd continue to be outliers much later on post-2016. If you think that level of competition in the early 2010s is so interesting and carries that much weight, then fine, whatever. Everybody is allowed their own arbitrary qualifiers of greatness. I just don't think this is a particularly interesting period of competition.
You’ve also got to factor in not just shifting metas, but literal new iterations of the game here. Which is something that makes SC2 distinct from most regular sports or indeed something like chess, that have remained somewhat static
Most of what made SoS a great player got completely neutered in LoTV. He had a strategic edge in early/mid-game to compensate for him not being a mechanical monster and that phase barely existed after those changes.
In a strategy game, being good at the strategy side of things should be weighted somewhat highly no?
And I mean almost nobody is arguing for competition levels in the early 2010s, it’s like entirely the ‘Kespa’ period from HoTS to early Legacy
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EPT
