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United States1753 Posts
On March 01 2024 18:59 Gilgamesh_ wrote:
While it appears justified to me to keep "Life" out of any discussions for GOT, I have to say that I find it very unsettling to read how people in this forum write about crime and justice in his case. I am surprised that a lot of people seem to prefer punishment over reintegration, which actually should be the focus of penitentiary systems in "western" countries which includes Korea. It is understandable that "Life" is banned from future competition in SC similar to e.g. Lance Armstrong in cycling, but expressing a wish for him to be humiliated or maybe even physically punished for his crime is wild to me. That is to me even more shocking considering that he was a minor, which should further put the focus on reintegration (in society, not necessarily SC 2 ;-) ) rather than justice as a primary means of punishment.
Along these lines, I cannot understand the wish to cancel "Life" not only as a SC2 pro gamer but as a person. I do not wish to see him play SC2 again but I would be interested to hear what happened to him lately and I do feel empathy for him as a "fallen hero".
You're are completely correct in some regards. I agree Life should be allowed to live whatever life he can (though he is obviously hindered by his past actions and the lack of a university degree). But I think it's pretty fair to say that he should never be allowed to participate in a competitive esport.
I can only speak for myself, but I know how much money Life cost people like soO and that infuriates me. And, even if we're talking about lower tier players, their dream of playing the video game they love for a living was pulled out from under them. The StarCraft pros often go to military almost immediately after retirement and, from there, it doesn't get all that much better since they don't have the degrees/education that will set them up for long term careers. TY, for example, has trained to be a bus driver. It's a stable salary and a reliable job, but I don't think that was the thing he was most looking forward to when he was first signed to a pro team.
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Agreed @Gilgamesh_ @Ciaus237
I'm sure many people here have committed some kind of crime, state or federal, perhaps when younger and dumber, or something that others here would consider morally wrong.
I forgot how young Life was. This isn't like he killed someone, where the person can never be brought back
Sure people betting money lost lots of money, but it's still completely different
The purpose of punishment isn't to cancel people forever, or else the sentence would be a life in jail for anything
Once his punishment is dealt and over, everyone should hope (and heck, even support) their re-integration into society as an upstanding person. What's the point in hoping that someone you see was a monster, stay a monster? That's pretty gross, and completely unbeneficial and unproductive
And regarding his wins not being wins, it's not like he was fixing opponents to give free wins to him, he was just being paid money to throw games. So anything he won, he won (unless if facing another matchfixer).
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On March 01 2024 20:03 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2024 18:59 Gilgamesh_ wrote:
While it appears justified to me to keep "Life" out of any discussions for GOT, I have to say that I find it very unsettling to read how people in this forum write about crime and justice in his case. I am surprised that a lot of people seem to prefer punishment over reintegration, which actually should be the focus of penitentiary systems in "western" countries which includes Korea. It is understandable that "Life" is banned from future competition in SC similar to e.g. Lance Armstrong in cycling, but expressing a wish for him to be humiliated or maybe even physically punished for his crime is wild to me. That is to me even more shocking considering that he was a minor, which should further put the focus on reintegration (in society, not necessarily SC 2 ;-) ) rather than justice as a primary means of punishment.
Along these lines, I cannot understand the wish to cancel "Life" not only as a SC2 pro gamer but as a person. I do not wish to see him play SC2 again but I would be interested to hear what happened to him lately and I do feel empathy for him as a "fallen hero". Yeah, some psycho stuff in this thread. A dumb teenager accepted money to lose some matches. Did this massively impact the scene? Yes. Should he be considered on a `greatest of all time' list? No. But we shouldn't go looking to hope he suffers like he's some monster in a human shell. Christ.
Welcome to the Internet, a place built for nuance. You must be new here :-)
More seriously, let's get back to important topics like nitpicking which one of the only two guys in SC2 with 75%+ winrate over 6 years+ is going to be #1 or #2.
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On March 01 2024 20:35 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2024 20:03 Ciaus237 wrote:On March 01 2024 18:59 Gilgamesh_ wrote:
While it appears justified to me to keep "Life" out of any discussions for GOT, I have to say that I find it very unsettling to read how people in this forum write about crime and justice in his case. I am surprised that a lot of people seem to prefer punishment over reintegration, which actually should be the focus of penitentiary systems in "western" countries which includes Korea. It is understandable that "Life" is banned from future competition in SC similar to e.g. Lance Armstrong in cycling, but expressing a wish for him to be humiliated or maybe even physically punished for his crime is wild to me. That is to me even more shocking considering that he was a minor, which should further put the focus on reintegration (in society, not necessarily SC 2 ;-) ) rather than justice as a primary means of punishment.
Along these lines, I cannot understand the wish to cancel "Life" not only as a SC2 pro gamer but as a person. I do not wish to see him play SC2 again but I would be interested to hear what happened to him lately and I do feel empathy for him as a "fallen hero". Yeah, some psycho stuff in this thread. A dumb teenager accepted money to lose some matches. Did this massively impact the scene? Yes. Should he be considered on a `greatest of all time' list? No. But we shouldn't go looking to hope he suffers like he's some monster in a human shell. Christ. Welcome to the Internet, a place built for nuance. You must be new here :-) More seriously, let's get back to important topics like nitpicking which one of the only two guys in SC2 with 75%+ winrate over 6 years+ is going to be #1 or #2.
My bet is 100% on Maru from the criteria and points mentioned in the articles/comments.
If it's Serral, I will be pleasantly satisfied though.
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On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy.
Thank you for saying it. I thought I was the only one hallucinating. First Mvp in top 5, then Dark out of top 10 and finally Rogue behind Maru?
Let's get real for once, Maru is one of the most overrated players of all time.
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On March 01 2024 20:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2024 20:35 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 01 2024 20:03 Ciaus237 wrote:On March 01 2024 18:59 Gilgamesh_ wrote:
While it appears justified to me to keep "Life" out of any discussions for GOT, I have to say that I find it very unsettling to read how people in this forum write about crime and justice in his case. I am surprised that a lot of people seem to prefer punishment over reintegration, which actually should be the focus of penitentiary systems in "western" countries which includes Korea. It is understandable that "Life" is banned from future competition in SC similar to e.g. Lance Armstrong in cycling, but expressing a wish for him to be humiliated or maybe even physically punished for his crime is wild to me. That is to me even more shocking considering that he was a minor, which should further put the focus on reintegration (in society, not necessarily SC 2 ;-) ) rather than justice as a primary means of punishment.
Along these lines, I cannot understand the wish to cancel "Life" not only as a SC2 pro gamer but as a person. I do not wish to see him play SC2 again but I would be interested to hear what happened to him lately and I do feel empathy for him as a "fallen hero". Yeah, some psycho stuff in this thread. A dumb teenager accepted money to lose some matches. Did this massively impact the scene? Yes. Should he be considered on a `greatest of all time' list? No. But we shouldn't go looking to hope he suffers like he's some monster in a human shell. Christ. Welcome to the Internet, a place built for nuance. You must be new here :-) More seriously, let's get back to important topics like nitpicking which one of the only two guys in SC2 with 75%+ winrate over 6 years+ is going to be #1 or #2. My bet is 100% on Maru from the criteria and points mentioned in the articles/comments. If it's Serral, I will be pleasantly satisfied though.
I mean, it's totally reasonable. In the alternative multiverse where he played his finals vs Oliveira at his full potential, (all else equal afterwards), I'm sure he would have been crowned GOAT, Messi-style, by a majority of TL.net denizens and that would have been ok... until the resurgence of chatter from this year that is 
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On March 01 2024 00:42 stilt wrote:
Most overrated player of all time
Katowice pre 2021 became a wc just for the benefits of his legacy lol
Poor Dark, I am not even a big fan but he's seriously underrated.
But yes Rogue was just extremely inconsistent just got lucky in tournaments people consider "big", kinda like Oliveira got lucky, but not to that extent.
sOs is also extremely overrated.
People read too much into the noise and not see the whole picture.
Your katowice statement also reminds me... who remembers when GSL vs The World was a GSL? Worthy enough of the G5L trophy.
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All else aside, it would be hilarious to see Maru ranked above Serral after the brutal Katowice finals slaughter.
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On March 01 2024 20:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
My bet is 100% on Maru from the criteria and points mentioned in the articles/comments.
If it's Serral, I will be pleasantly satisfied though.
Yeah. Rogue has won a lot more outside Korea in important tournaments and still was number 3........and then we get to the eternal argument of "but Serral hasnt won anything in Korea(Code S)".......By these criterias it must be Maru. Otherwise The list doesnt make sense. Bit sad, I must admit.
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Forgetting Maru was a royal roader of both osl and ssl 
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On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy.
Wow, great read. Somehow I missed this comment until it was quoted.
You bring up lots of good points. And yeah, Rogue won 3 WCs and 4 GSLs while Maru was around. Maru won 7 GSLs, and had an OSL and SSL win, but the 5th-7th GSL were in the GSL's final 2-3 years of life... and also AFTER Rogue left, AFTER Rogue dominated Maru in GSL finals the last time they met there.
In my mind, i had moved Maru back above Rogue when he got his 5th-7th GSL win. But now that we see 2024 really might be the end, and the KR scene is shrinking so much, and KRs failing to perform at international WC tier events... it really makes me not put much value into the 5th-7th GSL wins anymore, especially the 6th-7th ones with the much smaller prize pools, not playing all the matches live in person (more pressure and stuff), since the Semis and Finals are played in the same day... instead of you know, having a week of prep for the tournament that's supposed to be renowned as hard because of the high amount of prep players can do).
So... after reading your post maybe I should reconsider moving Maru back down to slightly below Rogue.
Though, Maru getting those other starleague wins outside of GSL are very good for sure.
But it's also really good that Rogue won WCs where Serral was at.
Now I'm kind of sad that we didn't get to see Rogue vs Serral at a Bo7 Grand Finals at a WC.
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On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy.
While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance.
To copy from my previous comments:
Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion.
Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion
Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages.
Also, for comparison:
Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion.
If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span.
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Yeah Rogue is like a sniper on steroid, with "higher highs and lower lows". His overall winrate is pretty terrible for a goat contender.
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On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span.
But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments.
If we only take premier offline tournaments :
Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest).
Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships.
This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
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What Nasigil said. The insanity of people to think that 1st place is somehow infinitely more valued/glorious than 2nd place still boggles my mind. A Bo7 grand finale win is great, but isn't THAT great. Rogue in my mind was never contender for "favorite" player to win in any tournament, while Serral and to a lesser degree Maru were always favorite. Rogue, even when he won, never did so dominantly, dropping many maps in tournaments. Rogue also had many, many flubs compared to Maru. Maru had far too many semis and 2nd places to discount. I don't think this is even a hard call. Maru > Rogue.
What I can grant about Rogue is his integrity. He called out his own race's OPness in 2018, and that was honorable of him. In my mind, he's one of the greatest, but his career achievements were overshadowed by Maru's.
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On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
So yeah, it really comes down to how much you value overall deep finishes and smaller tournaments (that still has enough top players participating) in a GOAT ranking. Those 2nd places and semifinals are not the best thing, but when you have 11 2nd place and 20 semifinals, do they still counts for nothing? If you think winning the biggest tournaments is EVERYTHING and nothing else should be considered, then you can probably make a case for Rogue being actual GOAT over both Maru and Serral. There will be many people disagree with that criteria tho.
For me, the Starcraft 2 pro scene just has wayyyy too many different type of tournaments that top players plays in, it's really hard for me to single out just WC tournaments and say it's definitely matters so much more than others.
If we let Maru win 2023 Katowice, he would do it by beating Solar, Ragnarok and Oliveira, while Serral won Masters of Coliseum 7 by going through Solar, Maru, Reynor and herO. It's hard for me to hype up that specific Katowice to be something so much more prestigious than MC7. A good GOAT ranking should definitely take these kind of variance into consideration.
But credits to Rogue, all his big wins are extremely solid. The only thing against him is just how often he bombs out of tournaments compared to the other two GOAT candidates.
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On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
Um...how the hell is DH Last Chance cheaper than IEM Shanghai??? The latter net Rogue $10,000 which is the same as Maru's $10,000 from beating Last Chance. Maru's two KoB wins net him more money than either tournaments. WESG wasn't insignificant, having a massive prize pool. It could be considered a mini WC. Maru carries his team to team league finishes. Rogue never did (winrate wasn't good enough).
Stop only counting tournament wins, and consider tournament standings. Do you even realize how much money Maru earned from just his 2nd standings alone? He probably made more cash from those 2nd-4th places than Rogue's entire earnings if you discount his 3 WCs.
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If you removed all his wins he'd still have a better ranking than soO on this list (Serral too probably)
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On March 01 2024 20:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2024 20:35 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 01 2024 20:03 Ciaus237 wrote:On March 01 2024 18:59 Gilgamesh_ wrote:
While it appears justified to me to keep "Life" out of any discussions for GOT, I have to say that I find it very unsettling to read how people in this forum write about crime and justice in his case. I am surprised that a lot of people seem to prefer punishment over reintegration, which actually should be the focus of penitentiary systems in "western" countries which includes Korea. It is understandable that "Life" is banned from future competition in SC similar to e.g. Lance Armstrong in cycling, but expressing a wish for him to be humiliated or maybe even physically punished for his crime is wild to me. That is to me even more shocking considering that he was a minor, which should further put the focus on reintegration (in society, not necessarily SC 2 ;-) ) rather than justice as a primary means of punishment.
Along these lines, I cannot understand the wish to cancel "Life" not only as a SC2 pro gamer but as a person. I do not wish to see him play SC2 again but I would be interested to hear what happened to him lately and I do feel empathy for him as a "fallen hero". Yeah, some psycho stuff in this thread. A dumb teenager accepted money to lose some matches. Did this massively impact the scene? Yes. Should he be considered on a `greatest of all time' list? No. But we shouldn't go looking to hope he suffers like he's some monster in a human shell. Christ. Welcome to the Internet, a place built for nuance. You must be new here :-) More seriously, let's get back to important topics like nitpicking which one of the only two guys in SC2 with 75%+ winrate over 6 years+ is going to be #1 or #2. My bet is 100% on Maru from the criteria and points mentioned in the articles/comments. If it's Serral, I will be pleasantly satisfied though.
My impression is that Miz values having an era of dominance, or a reputation for dominance, quite highly. Just looking at achievements Rogue is probably ahead of Maru but never had a long period of being the consensus best in the world - he was just someone who was very good at winning and always a contender. That's probably why Dark got left off the list; he never had that aura. Dark had the best year of anyone in 2019, but I think if you asked most people throughout 2019 they would have told you Serral was the best player in the world.
Outside of the online era where he often shat the bed in ZvZ, Serral has been viewed as the favorite in every tournament for a long time. Maru had a hyper dominant 2018 but otherwise can't really compete, but also has so many GSL and achievements going back to HOTS.
I can see #1 going either way.
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On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 00:23 Nasigil wrote:On March 01 2024 20:31 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
Putting Maru in front of Rogue is an absolute shame. There is absolutely no way you can say Maru is higher in the GOAT ranking than Rogue. Outside of Korea, Maru's trophy case is literally empty, all he did was winning a wesg with 2 koreans in it in a vastly favored terran patch with ravens being absolutely op. In korea, he won easy GSLs when players started going to military and when the competition became weaker in korea and stronger in Europe.
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all.
"Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE.
At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice.
He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him).
Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match.
Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue.
For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. While you brought up a lot of good points there, it's worth noting that Maru lost most of those matches you mentioned in semifinals and finals. When Rogue gets eliminated, it's often really early in the tournament, like group stages. It's the quieter way of exiting, doesn't make dramatic headlines like "Maru got reversed swept by Reynor and failed to reach finals", but it's hard to say a ro.16 exit is better than a semifinal appearance. To copy from my previous comments: Rogue: 11 premiere champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. Maru: 15 premiere champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish. 0 World champion Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals or ro.4 appearance than Maru. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. The only knock against him really is that either by luck or his own fault, he could never get it together for once in a WC tier tournament. While Rogue definitely made best use of his less consistent "good days" on the biggest stages. Also, for comparison: Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish. 3 World champion. If you discount the region-lock EU tournaments entirely, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish in 5 years span. But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments. If we only take premier offline tournaments : Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest). Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships. This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won.
Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018
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EPT
