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On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority.
Authority? I'm not the one writing articles.
I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist.
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On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist.
Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly.
You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS.
Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy.
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On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy.
Jesus. Did he get all of that from practicing, or a car accident? It could be a combination of poor stress maintenance and overtraining. My body also tenses up when I'm focusing hard, but I'm not hammering out games 10 hrs a day, and I'm sure he takes the level of tensity to another order of magnitude. I'm not an expert, but he really should've used some of his prize money to consult a professional, or just ease up on the training. Maybe do yoga/meditation to train his body to relax, in the heat of performance. Sounds insane that someone would allow themself to get to that point.
Just recently, there was a Japanese boxer who died from a boxing bout. Everyone was donning him with praise and respect for his warrior spirit, but I think he should've been wiser about his approach to boxing. This whole selling your own health for glory is simply irresponsible.
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Northern Ireland22794 Posts
On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy.
Indeed, hey we all get some details wrong in trying to recollect over a decade of glorious StarCraft. I’ve made quite a few errors myself on the times I haven’t refreshed my memory via Liquipedia.
Nout wrong with making some mistakes, or just genuinely being misinformed but my god some people decide to double down on being wrong and it’s infuriating, don’t blame you for being somewhat caustic.
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Northern Ireland22794 Posts
On February 29 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy. Jesus. Did he get all of that from practicing, or a car accident? It could be a combination of poor stress maintenance and overtraining. My body also tenses up when I'm focusing hard, but I'm not hammering out games 10 hrs a day, and I'm sure he takes the level of tensity to another order of magnitude. I'm not an expert, but he really should've used some of his prize money to consult a professional, or just ease up on the training. Maybe do yoga/meditation to train his body to relax, in the heat of performance. Sounds insane that someone would allow themself to get to that point. Just recently, there was a Japanese boxer who died from a boxing bout. Everyone was donning him with praise and respect for his warrior spirit, but I think he should've been wiser about his approach to boxing. This whole selling your own health for glory is simply irresponsible.
Agreed with the bolded, but perhaps he did some of the kind of things you’re suggesting? It’s almost all speculation as to what his practice regime was at his peak, and what he did to mitigate it, or not as the case may be.
Some folks just don’t have bodies that are resilient as others, doesn’t matter what they do to try and limit the damage they do to themselves. Know plenty of folks whose bodies just can’t stand up to the rigours of their work, but they don’t have the luxury to take the requisite time off to actually heal properly and the issue just gets worse with that passage of time.
Considering it’s pretty likely that at least all teamhouse pros played a similar amount back in the day, given the environment they were in, and SC2 has only really seen two particularly notable cases of players debilitated by injury to the degree they left high level competition prematurely, I’d say it’s just as likely that an Mvp or a Taeja were just unlucky with their bodies than had particularly bad habits.
Indeed if memory serves (and I may be corrected) I believe Taeja was kind of noted by peers etc to practice relatively little
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On February 29 2024 16:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy. Jesus. Did he get all of that from practicing, or a car accident? It could be a combination of poor stress maintenance and overtraining. My body also tenses up when I'm focusing hard, but I'm not hammering out games 10 hrs a day, and I'm sure he takes the level of tensity to another order of magnitude. I'm not an expert, but he really should've used some of his prize money to consult a professional, or just ease up on the training. Maybe do yoga/meditation to train his body to relax, in the heat of performance. Sounds insane that someone would allow themself to get to that point. Just recently, there was a Japanese boxer who died from a boxing bout. Everyone was donning him with praise and respect for his warrior spirit, but I think he should've been wiser about his approach to boxing. This whole selling your own health for glory is simply irresponsible. Agreed with the bolded, but perhaps he did some of the kind of things you’re suggesting? It’s almost all speculation as to what his practice regime was at his peak, and what he did to mitigate it, or not as the case may be. Some folks just don’t have bodies that are resilient as others, doesn’t matter what they do to try and limit the damage they do to themselves. Know plenty of folks whose bodies just can’t stand up to the rigours of their work, but they don’t have the luxury to take the requisite time off to actually heal properly and the issue just gets worse with that passage of time. Considering it’s pretty likely that at least all teamhouse pros played a similar amount back in the day, given the environment they were in, and SC2 has only really seen two particularly notable cases of players debilitated by injury to the degree they left high level competition prematurely, I’d say it’s just as likely that an Mvp or a Taeja were just unlucky with their bodies than had particularly bad habits. Indeed if memory serves (and I may be corrected) I believe Taeja was kind of noted by peers etc to practice relatively little
The same thought occurred to me. I'm still very skeptical about the so-called advantages of teamhouse practice. Perhaps he wouldn't have had the same success if he went independent like Byun, but I do think that he should've at least given it a try? What's there to lose? At least you can continue your career. Perhaps he felt some of the nervous damage was irreversible, judging by the severity of it. It's really a shame.
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On February 29 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy. Jesus. Did he get all of that from practicing, or a car accident? It could be a combination of poor stress maintenance and overtraining. My body also tenses up when I'm focusing hard, but I'm not hammering out games 10 hrs a day, and I'm sure he takes the level of tensity to another order of magnitude. I'm not an expert, but he really should've used some of his prize money to consult a professional, or just ease up on the training. Maybe do yoga/meditation to train his body to relax, in the heat of performance. Sounds insane that someone would allow themself to get to that point. Just recently, there was a Japanese boxer who died from a boxing bout. Everyone was donning him with praise and respect for his warrior spirit, but I think he should've been wiser about his approach to boxing. This whole selling your own health for glory is simply irresponsible.
I don't think we ever got a confirmed cause but people knowledgeable about the injury said it was probably bad posture (like leaning too far forward, forcing the neck to move back/up). Sitting in a bad way like that for 70 hours a week on average wouldn't be very good for you.
I know we're a lot more aware of good ergonomics these days but I do think it's surprising that we haven't seen similar cases. Mvp's posture didn't seem to be notably worse than any other pro's, at least outwardly. Really think it must have been a genuine freak injury.
On February 29 2024 16:24 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy. Jesus. Did he get all of that from practicing, or a car accident? It could be a combination of poor stress maintenance and overtraining. My body also tenses up when I'm focusing hard, but I'm not hammering out games 10 hrs a day, and I'm sure he takes the level of tensity to another order of magnitude. I'm not an expert, but he really should've used some of his prize money to consult a professional, or just ease up on the training. Maybe do yoga/meditation to train his body to relax, in the heat of performance. Sounds insane that someone would allow themself to get to that point. Just recently, there was a Japanese boxer who died from a boxing bout. Everyone was donning him with praise and respect for his warrior spirit, but I think he should've been wiser about his approach to boxing. This whole selling your own health for glory is simply irresponsible. SC2 has only really seen two particularly notable cases of players debilitated by injury to the degree they left high level competition prematurely, I’d say it’s just as likely that an Mvp or a Taeja were just unlucky with their bodies than had particularly bad habits.
BoxeR also retired due to a shoulder injury, while still quite a good Terran too (I believe he may have retired while still technically in Code S? Can't remember if he was formally knocked down to Code A, I think he may have forfeited the up and down matches?). He had a solid ten years of extra RTS playtime on his peers, much of which was before good PC ergonomics were understood, plus he was older than almost every player in the scene, so it wasn't seen as a big shock.
Speculation was his wife forced the retirement, but I saw nothing credible backing that up. Either way, injury-based retirement is quite rare in SC2.
EDIT: I wonder if it would be more common if military retirement wasn't a thing.
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Northern Ireland22794 Posts
On February 29 2024 16:42 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy. Jesus. Did he get all of that from practicing, or a car accident? It could be a combination of poor stress maintenance and overtraining. My body also tenses up when I'm focusing hard, but I'm not hammering out games 10 hrs a day, and I'm sure he takes the level of tensity to another order of magnitude. I'm not an expert, but he really should've used some of his prize money to consult a professional, or just ease up on the training. Maybe do yoga/meditation to train his body to relax, in the heat of performance. Sounds insane that someone would allow themself to get to that point. Just recently, there was a Japanese boxer who died from a boxing bout. Everyone was donning him with praise and respect for his warrior spirit, but I think he should've been wiser about his approach to boxing. This whole selling your own health for glory is simply irresponsible. I don't think we ever got a confirmed cause but people knowledgeable about the injury said it was probably bad posture (like leaning too far forward, forcing the neck to move back/up). Sitting in a bad way like that for 70 hours a week on average wouldn't be very good for you. I know we're a lot more aware of good ergonomics these days but I do think it's surprising that we haven't seen similar cases. Mvp's posture didn't seem to be notably worse than any other pro's, at least outwardly. Really think it must have been a genuine freak injury.
I have such fine posture that people actually notice it and roundly mock compliment me on it. My workstation/gaming setup is all measured out to conform with my best knowledge of good ergonomic practice. I dropped my mouse sensitivity down pretty damn low, the theory being if you need to move your whole arm for bigger mouse movement, you’re not restricting movement purely to your wrist.
Nonetheless I’ve still got a pretty bad right wrist and elbow, plus an unrelated issue that gives me pretty frequent pains in my fingers.
Outside of just not gaming or playing guitar, unfortunately my two most beloved hobbies, I’m just going to have issues. Fortunately I don’t need to be grinding those 8-10 hours a day to enjoy them and it’s not my job, as it is for a progamer.
The elbow has been a thing as long as I can remember, even as a kid I couldn’t throw a ball any distance/with force more than a couple of times before getting a decent level of pain.
So just from personal experience and bias I think it’s rather plausible that Mvp was just unlucky with his physical condition.
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On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was.
God your comments make me angry. So uneducated and full of your own opinion. Some people get injured more easily, some people's bodies don't hold up over time, would you tell a person suffering from depression 'oh, but for me, doing XYZ after a stressful day helps me reset body and mind, should have tried that then'. Many athletes have career-ending injuries, and I find it extremely tactless to attribute all of these to their own carelessness.
Also, is the first moon landing not to be taken seriously, as their technology and rockets were primitive to what we will have a century from now? In 2011, hundreds of players dedicated their whole lives to try and become what MVP achieved, the competition was arguably more fierce than at any point in the future due to the sheer amount of people trying their very hardest to achieve something!
ok rant over.
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United States1753 Posts
On February 29 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 16:42 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 15:32 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist. Wrist was a minor issue compared to his neck/spine. His wrist pain was mostly coming from nerves in his neck. Seriously, his neck was real messed up, nerve/spinal damage kind of deal. He described the difficulty in gripping the mouse properly. You regained your prior form quickly? Good for you. At the pro level at the time, your prior form wasn't enough and the level was always going up. Dozens of players playing ten hours a day. If you're injured and can only play four? Guess what, you're falling behind every single day. I guess technically he did plateau but framing it as a skill issue that he couldn't keep up or adapt to HotS is ridiculous. He was doing great in the first few months of HotS. Sorry if I come off as a little caustic but as someone who was there for all that stuff, the amount of misinformation about older SC2 stuff I've seen since this series began has been crazy. Jesus. Did he get all of that from practicing, or a car accident? It could be a combination of poor stress maintenance and overtraining. My body also tenses up when I'm focusing hard, but I'm not hammering out games 10 hrs a day, and I'm sure he takes the level of tensity to another order of magnitude. I'm not an expert, but he really should've used some of his prize money to consult a professional, or just ease up on the training. Maybe do yoga/meditation to train his body to relax, in the heat of performance. Sounds insane that someone would allow themself to get to that point. Just recently, there was a Japanese boxer who died from a boxing bout. Everyone was donning him with praise and respect for his warrior spirit, but I think he should've been wiser about his approach to boxing. This whole selling your own health for glory is simply irresponsible. I don't think we ever got a confirmed cause but people knowledgeable about the injury said it was probably bad posture (like leaning too far forward, forcing the neck to move back/up). Sitting in a bad way like that for 70 hours a week on average wouldn't be very good for you. I know we're a lot more aware of good ergonomics these days but I do think it's surprising that we haven't seen similar cases. Mvp's posture didn't seem to be notably worse than any other pro's, at least outwardly. Really think it must have been a genuine freak injury. I have such fine posture that people actually notice it and roundly mock compliment me on it. My workstation/gaming setup is all measured out to conform with my best knowledge of good ergonomic practice. I dropped my mouse sensitivity down pretty damn low, the theory being if you need to move your whole arm for bigger mouse movement, you’re not restricting movement purely to your wrist. Nonetheless I’ve still got a pretty bad right wrist and elbow, plus an unrelated issue that gives me pretty frequent pains in my fingers. Outside of just not gaming or playing guitar, unfortunately my two most beloved hobbies, I’m just going to have issues. Fortunately I don’t need to be grinding those 8-10 hours a day to enjoy them and it’s not my job, as it is for a progamer. The elbow has been a thing as long as I can remember, even as a kid I couldn’t throw a ball any distance/with force more than a couple of times before getting a decent level of pain. So just from personal experience and bias I think it’s rather plausible that Mvp was just unlucky with his physical condition.
I randomly herniated a disc in my back from carrying a log inside my house to put in the fire. Six years later I still can't ride a bike without sciatic pain or lift weights.
A friend of mine had to temporarily drop out of college and get spinal surgery for degenerative discs in his back despite setting the 400m record at my high school.
TLDR: You're 100% right. The tiniest thing can cause consistent pain for years. Considering Mvp's problem involved his spine/discs, I give him a lot of credit on a personal level for fighting through that. But, "performing despite serious injury" isn't a metric I'd suggest people use to measure players.
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Let's get this straight: most of you have no idea when you talk about injuries.
Now on to the point. It was his work, life and in his best interest was making everything and anything to keep himself in good health. MOST of the injuries happen because of weak/tight muscles that cause muscle imbalances/force your body out of the correct position. You sit a lot and don't train - you have tight hip flexors, weak abdominals, glutes, lower back. You start to walk funny (your body can't keep the spine in correct position), you start having lower back pain. You either do something with it or risk serious health problems later in life.
His issues were really simple to reduce or even prevent. Strenght training 2x week, stretching whole body 3x a week, rubber bands for upper body warmups every hour, every day for 5 mins. No time for gym? Get a pair of dumbbells, a pullup bar and rubber bands of various thickness. Focus on shoulders and arms, then back muscles, glutes, abdominals, less so on chest, quads. Does it look like a lot of work? To you, maybe, to me it's 5 hours tops weekly, not counting the warmups every hour between the games. And when you add proper sleep schedule, better diet you let your body recover more properly, you fix the muscle imbalances from all of the sitting, holding arms in front of the body most of the time. You feel better, you are more happy, your career is longer, you earn more money. It is that simple.
But what Mvp did? Probably nothing at all for years, ignored every sign "oh i feel funny here" (tight, light pain etc). Waited till the last moment and it was too late then.
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United States1753 Posts
On February 29 2024 19:01 NotSoHappy wrote:
Let's get this straight: most of you have no idea when you talk about injuries.
Now on to the point. It was his work, life and in his best interest was making everything and anything to keep himself in good health. MOST of the injuries happen because of weak/tight muscles that cause muscle imbalances/force your body out of the correct position. You sit a lot and don't train - you have tight hip flexors, weak abdominals, glutes, lower back. You start to walk funny (your body can't keep the spine in correct position), you start having lower back pain. You either do something with it or risk serious health problems later in life.
His issues were really simple to reduce or even prevent. Strenght training 2x week, stretching whole body 3x a week, rubber bands for upper body warmups every hour, every day for 5 mins. No time for gym? Get a pair of dumbbells, a pullup bar and rubber bands of various thickness. Focus on shoulders and arms, then back muscles, glutes, abdominals, less so on chest, quads. Does it look like a lot of work? To you, maybe, to me it's 5 hours tops weekly, not counting the warmups every hour between the games. And when you add proper sleep schedule, better diet you let your body recover more properly, you fix the muscle imbalances from all of the sitting, holding arms in front of the body most of the time. You feel better, you are more happy, your career is longer, you earn more money. It is that simple.
But what Mvp did? Probably nothing at all for years, ignored every sign "oh i feel funny here" (tight, light pain etc). Waited till the last moment and it was too late then.
If you were as knowledgeable as you're insisting you are then you'd understand every case is different.
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At some point I'll probably just use these endless arguments about statistics in one of the methodology classes I teach to talk about how statistics are far from neutral or self-evident.
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On February 29 2024 15:15 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 14:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 29 2024 10:38 Perceivere wrote:
There is no telling whether Life's wins were also match-fixed. That alone should exclude him from any list.
Putting children who never played LotV on a GOAT list is a bit comical to me. It's well known in chess that players don't reach their plateau until at least their early twenties, and more typically their late twenties. Not only was the game in its juvenile state, the skill levels of players and their mental states were also in the juvenile states. I find it all just too absurd. One can argue that the rapid-pace SC2 game is different from classical chess, but Hikaru Nakamura shows that even in your thirties you can be the top dog of 1-min bullet chess.
There is no telling if Life or MVP's peaks would be significantly higher/lower than the peak of the current pool of players. Remember that after MVP had all of his success he petered off into the middle of the pack. His plateau was such that he just couldn't keep up with the front of the pack, and the ever rising skill floor. Or, perhaps HotS did him in, in which case the lack of ability to adjust is a mark against him. True greats should excel at adapting.
I mean, I get that you're pressed to include kids, because the life expectancy of SC2 seems closer than the farthest horizon, and a good chunk of players had left the game long ago. Still, meh...Comparing WoL or Hots to current level of play is like comparing high school league to major league baseball. I don't care what children accomplished in high school. This is just silly. No WoL-HotS-exclusive players should be anywhere near the top5, unless they were far and away dominant for their entire career, which none of these kids was. Mvp couldn't keep up because of crippling injury that rendered him unable to even practice. PLEASE learn the history and circumstances of a player before trying to speak on their career with authority. Authority? I'm not the one writing articles. I don't buy the injury excuse. How ever he got injured is on him. Pros are responsible for their own health, and not driving themselves over the brink of over-extension. Overtraining injuries also happen in sports, where set back is even worse on their cardio conditioning. I don't know how much less severe it is in progaming, but each time I took a long hiatus from laddering, it didn't take long to return to my prior form, but I'm not a pro. Either way, it was his responsibility to take care of his wrist.
Im in the same stance. IF not for injuries, Van Basten or the Phenomenom could have ben the best strikers in history. But they were not. In their prime, they were much more skillful than CR. But the latter is bound to enter history higher than them.
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On February 29 2024 20:28 Heartland wrote:
At some point I'll probably just use these endless arguments about statistics in one of the methodology classes I teach to talk about how statistics are far from neutral or self-evident.
Would love to read that! Any Starcraft content, especially GOAT related topic, would be interesting to read.
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On February 29 2024 20:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 20:28 Heartland wrote:
At some point I'll probably just use these endless arguments about statistics in one of the methodology classes I teach to talk about how statistics are far from neutral or self-evident. Would love to read that! Any Starcraft content, especially GOAT related topic, would be interesting to read.
Gratz on 10k!!
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On February 29 2024 20:50 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 20:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 29 2024 20:28 Heartland wrote:
At some point I'll probably just use these endless arguments about statistics in one of the methodology classes I teach to talk about how statistics are far from neutral or self-evident. Would love to read that! Any Starcraft content, especially GOAT related topic, would be interesting to read. Gratz on 10k!!
Holy, thanks!!
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On February 29 2024 20:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 20:28 Heartland wrote:
At some point I'll probably just use these endless arguments about statistics in one of the methodology classes I teach to talk about how statistics are far from neutral or self-evident. Would love to read that! Any Starcraft content, especially GOAT related topic, would be interesting to read.
I mean, it is not so fancy. Either we imagine that there is some quantifiable metric we can judge a GOAT or something else by and then we just conclude that whoever has the most in that category is the GOAT. Or, we have the weigh some different categories somehow, such as by stating that titles older than ten years is worth half of more modern titles or whatever. Or, we realize that stats do not speak for themselves but require context, analysis and discussion in a more qualitative sense, but then you also have the issue of never having really decided on the premises for the arguments that are brought to bear. In that sense I think most of these discussions are meaningless and sort of show how stats are far from enough.
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On February 29 2024 05:15 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 05:07 ejozl wrote:Rogue has this crazy bo7 record. But how do the stats look, if we just look at every finals? ex. TaeJa has incredible winrate in finals, but many were probably bo5's, I'd be interested to see this. On February 28 2024 08:30 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 04:08 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 01:48 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 01:01 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 00:32 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2024 00:13 Fango wrote:On February 28 2024 00:03 Pandain wrote:
[quote]
But this doesn't even mean that much to me because a huge chunk of rogues prime took place during the pandemic, when every tournament was online for like a year and a half. Why are we excluding that? And the offline only stat maybe has more value pre 2018 or so, but major international online tournaments are pretty much the bedrock of modern SC2 for the past six five years or so. Again, weird to exclude.
And I suppose for whatever it's worth maybe you can't say Rogue had bad ZVP considering his offline results. But I'm definitely never going to call someone "the best ZvP of all time" who literally has sub 50% win rates against the best toss players overall. Because none of Rogue's championships were in the online era, except one GSL that was offline anyway. His legendary run was 2017-18, he then won the 2020 WC and GSLs in 19, 20, 21, and 22. You can read in the article that Rogue had an almost Serral -like winrate Vs top protoss players offline. Which accounts for almost every relavent event. Even adjusting for including online (which includes mostly irrelevant tournaments) his winrate is still 66% from 2017 onwards against protoss. I don't know where you're getting this idea of sub-50% from. I’ve been noodling away on Aligulac, bemoaning my lack of a desktop PC in lieu of a phone! I’m unsure where 50% is coming from :S Anyway picking an arbitrary cutoff, January 1st 2017, offline only, South Korean opposition: - Serral is 72–35[\i] (67.29%) in games and 27–8 (77.14%) in matches.
- Rogue is 147–76 (65.92%) in games and 52–21 (71.23%) in matches.
Bear in mind that Serral is only playing Korean Toss players good enough to make the big offline events, where Rogue has more opportunity to play the lesser Korean Toss in early GSL rounds. Also, as per my previous stat dump, the Covid-induced offline premier period really makes it difficult to filter easily to do a direct Premier tournament comparison. Filtering for offline online cuts out some big, big online tournaments, but dropping the filter introduces a bunch of way less prestigious tournaments. Even on that data, with the aforementioned caveats Serral is still ahead, and I’d wager he’d be even further ahead if we’re counting premier online tournaments. Rogue’s numbers bear out that he is a ZvP monster, just Serral is [i]the ZvP monster. I just hope someone reads this and my previous stats dump as my god trying to do this on a phone is tortuous :p Who are these korean protoss players that Rogue is facing offline which aren't good enough to make the big offline events? That was maybe a thing in the Kespa era but nowadays korean Protoss players that are still active are able to make the big offline events. Creator and Zoun are probably the 'worst' ones in recent years and Serral was facing both in offline events. Ever heard of legendary Korean Protoss players like Hurricane, Patience, Super, Yeri, JYP, Dandy, Billowy, YB? Just from some quick search on Aligulac with filters of offline Korean Protoss Rogue has played against since 2017 Ah, I see I forgot GSL qualifiers are offline and there are some no-names in there. Hurricane though when he still played, faced and beat Serral at IEM Katowice (2019?) so he's not a good example There are people thinking Serral's 90 offline matches against Korean Protoss is not enough sample size, and there are people thinking Hurricane's one bo3 win over Serral is enough sample size. ssmple size for what? Like Fango said, it was just a comment about how Hurricane doesn't deserve to be listed among the other players as some throwaway player as he was pretty legit (Patience probably doesn't either he made a HSC finals) Patience defeated Zest to win that HSC, I know because I am a Patience fanboi. On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency. I think he was the favourite after winning the GSL to win the World Championsship and he did. I don't really know if aura counts for anything, what if everyone is just wrong about a person? For instance, many called this guy a patch zerg, abuser, or simply lucky. But being the most consistent player in bo7's means that this is just all bullshit. Stephano had the aura, but how much did he really win. I dno, I just think many people hated Rogue, because they did not understand him, he's a super hard worker and he is obviously intelligent. On February 28 2024 01:03 Balnazza wrote:On February 28 2024 00:45 Regisko wrote:
I can't accept any result except of Life being top-3 (probably 2nd), and Serral being outside top-3. Then you can skip the rest of this list. Not only did Mizenhauer on multiple occasion state that Life won't be on it, but there is a 100% guarantee that Serral will atleast be in the Top 2. Even if you somehow think he isn't in the Top 3, not putting him in the Top 10 would be almost as ridiculous as thinking a convicted cheater should even be in the discussion of being the GREATEST (not best) of All Time. Does greatest mean that you have to be virtuous? if so we Fruitdealer can be the GOAT for winning for his family, or Duckdeok, because that guys seems really nice. Yeah, but when your greatest achievement is stealing from your fellow pros by accelerating the death of proleague and committing the equivalent of a federal crime (gambling is illegal in Korea), you're not lacking in virtue, you're just a piece of shit and the sc2 community would have been better off if he never played.
This is a horrible take, and let me kindly explain why:
1. His greatest achievement was redefining the game, being on another level compared to anyone else. He was (is) an extremely talented person. Times more capable than you within your areas of interest. Unfortunately, I have no clue what he's doing right now, but I hope he can implement his talent better.
2. "accelerated the death of the proleague" - you sound like a child without a beloved toy, and, in my heart, I'm totally with you here. But in reality, the proleague would die in any case, as Life and his situation is not the root cause. Know about Five whys technique? Try it here.
3. "equivalent of a federal crime" - my god, you're a moralist! You never broke any laws, sure, never? Never ever? We both know you did, dirty boy...  Would you like me to remind you of later law-related issues with KeSpa? He was a 14 (15?) yo boy with talent, temper, and no clue how to control it. This type requires guidance, not punishment.
4. "you're just a piece of shit" - I assume it feels good to break the rules of speech but won't be punished because of the status? And, following good old post-ussr tradition, "you won't ever be brave enough to say this into his face."
5. "Community would have been better off if he never played." - It's similar to saying that community would have been better off if Mizenhauer had never written anything, based on your quoted comment. You wrote something stupid, yes, but you're still a good author overall. Same for Life, sorry.
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On February 29 2024 23:55 Regisko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2024 05:15 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 29 2024 05:07 ejozl wrote:Rogue has this crazy bo7 record. But how do the stats look, if we just look at every finals? ex. TaeJa has incredible winrate in finals, but many were probably bo5's, I'd be interested to see this. On February 28 2024 08:30 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 04:08 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 01:48 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 01:01 Nasigil wrote:On February 28 2024 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:On February 28 2024 00:32 WombaT wrote:On February 28 2024 00:13 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Because none of Rogue's championships were in the online era, except one GSL that was offline anyway. His legendary run was 2017-18, he then won the 2020 WC and GSLs in 19, 20, 21, and 22.
You can read in the article that Rogue had an almost Serral -like winrate Vs top protoss players offline. Which accounts for almost every relavent event. Even adjusting for including online (which includes mostly irrelevant tournaments) his winrate is still 66% from 2017 onwards against protoss.
I don't know where you're getting this idea of sub-50% from.
I’ve been noodling away on Aligulac, bemoaning my lack of a desktop PC in lieu of a phone! I’m unsure where 50% is coming from :S Anyway picking an arbitrary cutoff, January 1st 2017, offline only, South Korean opposition: - Serral is 72–35[\i] (67.29%) in games and 27–8 (77.14%) in matches.
- Rogue is 147–76 (65.92%) in games and 52–21 (71.23%) in matches.
Bear in mind that Serral is only playing Korean Toss players good enough to make the big offline events, where Rogue has more opportunity to play the lesser Korean Toss in early GSL rounds. Also, as per my previous stat dump, the Covid-induced offline premier period really makes it difficult to filter easily to do a direct Premier tournament comparison. Filtering for offline online cuts out some big, big online tournaments, but dropping the filter introduces a bunch of way less prestigious tournaments. Even on that data, with the aforementioned caveats Serral is still ahead, and I’d wager he’d be even further ahead if we’re counting premier online tournaments. Rogue’s numbers bear out that he is a ZvP monster, just Serral is [i]the ZvP monster. I just hope someone reads this and my previous stats dump as my god trying to do this on a phone is tortuous :p Who are these korean protoss players that Rogue is facing offline which aren't good enough to make the big offline events? That was maybe a thing in the Kespa era but nowadays korean Protoss players that are still active are able to make the big offline events. Creator and Zoun are probably the 'worst' ones in recent years and Serral was facing both in offline events. Ever heard of legendary Korean Protoss players like Hurricane, Patience, Super, Yeri, JYP, Dandy, Billowy, YB? Just from some quick search on Aligulac with filters of offline Korean Protoss Rogue has played against since 2017 Ah, I see I forgot GSL qualifiers are offline and there are some no-names in there. Hurricane though when he still played, faced and beat Serral at IEM Katowice (2019?) so he's not a good example There are people thinking Serral's 90 offline matches against Korean Protoss is not enough sample size, and there are people thinking Hurricane's one bo3 win over Serral is enough sample size. ssmple size for what? Like Fango said, it was just a comment about how Hurricane doesn't deserve to be listed among the other players as some throwaway player as he was pretty legit (Patience probably doesn't either he made a HSC finals) Patience defeated Zest to win that HSC, I know because I am a Patience fanboi. On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency. I think he was the favourite after winning the GSL to win the World Championsship and he did. I don't really know if aura counts for anything, what if everyone is just wrong about a person? For instance, many called this guy a patch zerg, abuser, or simply lucky. But being the most consistent player in bo7's means that this is just all bullshit. Stephano had the aura, but how much did he really win. I dno, I just think many people hated Rogue, because they did not understand him, he's a super hard worker and he is obviously intelligent. On February 28 2024 01:03 Balnazza wrote:On February 28 2024 00:45 Regisko wrote:
I can't accept any result except of Life being top-3 (probably 2nd), and Serral being outside top-3. Then you can skip the rest of this list. Not only did Mizenhauer on multiple occasion state that Life won't be on it, but there is a 100% guarantee that Serral will atleast be in the Top 2. Even if you somehow think he isn't in the Top 3, not putting him in the Top 10 would be almost as ridiculous as thinking a convicted cheater should even be in the discussion of being the GREATEST (not best) of All Time. Does greatest mean that you have to be virtuous? if so we Fruitdealer can be the GOAT for winning for his family, or Duckdeok, because that guys seems really nice. Yeah, but when your greatest achievement is stealing from your fellow pros by accelerating the death of proleague and committing the equivalent of a federal crime (gambling is illegal in Korea), you're not lacking in virtue, you're just a piece of shit and the sc2 community would have been better off if he never played. 2. "accelerated the death of the proleague" - you sound like a child without a beloved toy, and, in my heart, I'm totally with you here. But in reality, the proleague would die in any case, as Life and his situation is not the root cause. Know about Five whys technique? Try it here.
That is just not true. SPOTV had projects in the works for sc2 canceled after the matchfixing scandal. Perhaps proleague would have died regardless (just like GSL today) - but definitely not as early as it did.
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