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On December 29 2023 23:19 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 23:08 Salazarz wrote:The actual Palestinians and Israelis seem significantly less inclined to compromise now. This is why we don't usually leave decision making to angry crowds. Of course people are less inclined to compromise after a bunch of people is killed. Right, so who is supposed to implement all this external theorycrafting that neither of the parties involved give a shit about?
Their governments should, and if they aren't willing to do so the international community that isn't as emotionally invested into the situation should steer them in the right direction using diplomacy, or if that fails, sanctions or whatever?
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On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 03:07 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 02:52 Magic Powers wrote: [quote]
Hamas are factually fighting against an oppressor, you cannot deny that. It's absurd that you keep deflecting from that fact. You want to justify unjustifiable acts. Hamas are factually oppressing the Palestinians and are fighting to be their only oppressors. The IDF is also fighting oppressors. The biggest issue is both sides see the lives of innocent Palestinians as expendable. Hamas even more so as they actively targeted infants and actively gang raped women of every age. Whereas the IDF is callously treating the Palestinians (and in some cases journalists and their own hostages)as acceptable collateral damage. I also do not give Hitler and his Nazis any credit for fighting Stalin who objectively was oppressing his people. Hitlers intentions for the oppressed were just as evil if not worse, much like Hamas’s. I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me. And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light. You cannot honestly believe the prevention of progress begins and ends with Bibi...
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On December 29 2023 23:50 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 09:36 Uldridge wrote: So your suggestion is, to force the Israelis to adopt an integration strategy, which they themselves don't really want - at least not now - and then to wait a few decades? All the while, do the heavy lifting of dismantling Hamas, without too many civilians getting killed in the process (where is the ehtical line here?). Remember that Israelis and Palestinians need to work together on this, because they need to completely denounce Hamas. Will that happen? With so many young minds to be influenced by their indoctrination tactics? By the way, aren't Israel (and Egypt) already trying to do something about the Hamas situation?
I also don't think 'life just goes on" the second Israel stop fighting. Rockets are fired at Israel, like every other day. Fun life to be an Israeli I guess?
I don't think your idea is viable. I think Palestine needs to get rid of Hamas first, or at the very least have some sort of communal conviction where they denounce them. Either with the help of Israel, or any other nation willing to offer aid here. This would be a huge symbolic step towards something more long lasting. That shows that Palestinians want something instead of retribution for the occupation that Israel is stubbornly upholding. Applying the same sanctions to israel that you've done to russua would utterly crush their economy. That's what should be done. + Show Spoiler +This conflict is a balance of power, let's take away their power.
Hamas will stop when the conditions of the palestinians will get better. When they will have something to lose rather than living on a closed city.
As far as fun goes, the slaughtering of children seem pretty fun when I am going though the tiktok of idf soldiers. They're drawing nice dicks along the shells, they dancew they're laughing or making silly jokes about the destroyed houses, good times. Their life seem really really easy tbh. Then I go on some channel of palestinian journalist and others and I am seeing the beautiful results of dead/super injured children.
But that's all "hamas propaganda" ofc, especially when the idf proudly states they drop up to 1000 tons of bombs into gaza... I generally don't think sanctions are very effective, but sanctions against Israel is a requirement to salvage even a tiny shred of legitimacy for the "rules based order" that ostensibly legitimates the sanctions against Russia.
Every day that Israel continues their ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign makes the possibility of salvaging any credibility for the "rules based order" closer to 0.
Granted the US's petulant and inhumane embargo against Cuba should have already taken it there imo.
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On December 30 2023 04:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 02:20 Salazarz wrote:On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote: [quote]
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light. Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly. People are calling Hamas liberators and freedom fighters. You like to say Hamas is bad in one post than skirt around them being good or necessary. Hamas is a proxy army for the Iranian regime which Includes a lot of militias and the Iranian army. They could most certainly win at some point as they keep gaining strength and it would be terrible for all the humans of almost every creed if they did. Some males in high ranking positions would do better I guess. None of what I’m saying excuses Israel’s response. Just Hamas is way worse and it’s a loss for Palestinians and humanity whenever they gain power or success.
The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas.
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On December 30 2023 04:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 02:25 Cricketer12 wrote:On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 04:44 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote: [quote]
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. You are mistaken, Hamas are oppressors. I’m not suggesting they are oppressing Israel, even if they had the power they would not, they would commit genocide against every man, women and child and not just the Jews. They are oppressing the Palestinians. The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light. You cannot honestly believe the prevention of progress begins and ends with Bibi... Great strawman! By all means, clarify, the floor is yours.
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On December 30 2023 05:48 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 04:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 02:20 Salazarz wrote:On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:23 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:07 Magic Powers wrote: [quote]
The fact that Hamas wants to rule with Sharia Law has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas are fighting against an oppressive force. I have no idea what point you are now trying to make. My point is that Hamas is looking to continue to oppress the Palestinians. They are not looking to liberate but rather to be the sole oppressor. I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it. Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME. Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light. Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly. People are calling Hamas liberators and freedom fighters. You like to say Hamas is bad in one post than skirt around them being good or necessary. Hamas is a proxy army for the Iranian regime which Includes a lot of militias and the Iranian army. They could most certainly win at some point as they keep gaining strength and it would be terrible for all the humans of almost every creed if they did. Some males in high ranking positions would do better I guess. None of what I’m saying excuses Israel’s response. Just Hamas is way worse and it’s a loss for Palestinians and humanity whenever they gain power or success. The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They also believe that Hamas is going to win them all of Israel and they have killed most of the people who opposed them. Do you think Criminea should be given to Russia if they can win a poll or do you critically think about why a poll might indicate it. Do you magic power think Palestinians would be better off if Hamas won? If so state your case, if not stop.
I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes.
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On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 05:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 04:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 02:20 Salazarz wrote:On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote: [quote]
I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it.
Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME.
Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light. Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly. People are calling Hamas liberators and freedom fighters. You like to say Hamas is bad in one post than skirt around them being good or necessary. Hamas is a proxy army for the Iranian regime which Includes a lot of militias and the Iranian army. They could most certainly win at some point as they keep gaining strength and it would be terrible for all the humans of almost every creed if they did. Some males in high ranking positions would do better I guess. None of what I’m saying excuses Israel’s response. Just Hamas is way worse and it’s a loss for Palestinians and humanity whenever they gain power or success. The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They also believe that Hamas is going to win them all of Israel and they have killed most of the people who opposed them. Do you think Criminea should be given to Russia if they can win a poll or do you critically think about why a poll might indicate it. Do you magic power think Palestinians would be better off if Hamas won? If so state your case, if not stop. I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women? I'd rather be an Afghani woman than a Gazan Palestinian right now. I don't think a Palestinian state under Hamas rule will be worse than the Taliban. Of course, they might have greater international aspirations and that'll be very bad for everyone around, but if they take a Taliban approach to foreign policy (there is none), then sharia under Hamas will at worst be similar to sharia under Taliban in Afghanistan.
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On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 05:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 04:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 02:20 Salazarz wrote:On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 12:35 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 06:38 Magic Powers wrote: [quote]
I think if you tried to understand my point instead of just arguing against it, perhaps you would actually understand it.
Hamas wanting to oppress Palestinians is not true. They want to enact a law that you and I would consider oppressive, but Hamas considers the only good and right way to live. It's the word of God, and many Muslims agree with Hamas on this particular point. A very large portion of Muslims want Sharia Law, albeit a less violent version. Hamas want complete Sharia Law, including the more violent aspects, with which a large minority of Muslims agrees, but the majority of Muslims don't. Generally speaking the type of Sharia Law that Hamas want finds support in many parts of the Muslim world. It would be considered strictly extreme only in more liberal countries like ours, but not so much in the ME.
Sharia Law is therefore not something we can use to argue that Hamas want to oppress Palestinians. We can point to other things instead. You have made that up to feel better about your position. Hamas is a terrorist organization that is a proxy army for Iran to wage its war on Israel. We know this because of their actions and their words. And as for all of your justification for their Sharia law I don’t much care what they want, no more than I care about what ever evil is excused by any religion and nor should you. Hiding oppression in religion is an old trick you wouldn’t fall for it if it was white Christian’s or clearly for Jews so do not do it for Muslims. It is not racist to call out evil. What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light. Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly. People are calling Hamas liberators and freedom fighters. You like to say Hamas is bad in one post than skirt around them being good or necessary. Hamas is a proxy army for the Iranian regime which Includes a lot of militias and the Iranian army. They could most certainly win at some point as they keep gaining strength and it would be terrible for all the humans of almost every creed if they did. Some males in high ranking positions would do better I guess. None of what I’m saying excuses Israel’s response. Just Hamas is way worse and it’s a loss for Palestinians and humanity whenever they gain power or success. The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They also believe that Hamas is going to win them all of Israel and they have killed most of the people who opposed them. Do you think Criminea should be given to Russia if they can win a poll or do you critically think about why a poll might indicate it. Do you magic power think Palestinians would be better off if Hamas won? If so state your case, if not stop. I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women?
Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves.
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On December 30 2023 07:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2023 06:59 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 06:25 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 06:20 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 05:48 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 05:05 Magic Powers wrote:On December 30 2023 04:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 30 2023 02:20 Salazarz wrote:On December 29 2023 23:59 JimmiC wrote:On December 29 2023 19:08 Magic Powers wrote:[quote] What is it that I made up exactly? That Muslims want Sharia Law? Here's the latest survey on it. It's from 2013, but that should be recent enough to get a rough idea. The majority of Muslims in the ME want Sharia Law, and especially Palestinians are very much in favor. Palestinians also favor corporal punishment for theft, while other Muslims have more mixed views on this. So I ask you, what did I make up? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ The whole part before you bit about Sharialaw, which is what I indicated in my post. Like have you considered that if Hamas “wins” there will be mass murder and torture then one of the most oppressive regimes in the entire world will be created? Hamas winning is worse for Palestinians than Israel winning. With Israel they are just one election away from it being much better for them. With Hamas winning it is likely generations of awful. It is completely fine to talk about the actions that Israel has taken and what is wrong with them. But you jump the shark when you start talking about Hamas in any sort of positive light. Nobody here is talking about Hamas in positive light. Stop with the strawmen already. Also, Hamas is never going to 'win' against Israel if by 'winning' you mean actually defeating Israel. And if by Hamas winning you mean getting Israel to stop bombing them and ethnically cleansing their land... well, I don't see how that would be generations of awful, honestly. People are calling Hamas liberators and freedom fighters. You like to say Hamas is bad in one post than skirt around them being good or necessary. Hamas is a proxy army for the Iranian regime which Includes a lot of militias and the Iranian army. They could most certainly win at some point as they keep gaining strength and it would be terrible for all the humans of almost every creed if they did. Some males in high ranking positions would do better I guess. None of what I’m saying excuses Israel’s response. Just Hamas is way worse and it’s a loss for Palestinians and humanity whenever they gain power or success. The Palestinians, who are actually the oppressed ones - unlike us impartial observers - disagree with you. They think Israel is way worse for them than Hamas. Propaganda is a powerful tool. They also believe that Hamas is going to win them all of Israel and they have killed most of the people who opposed them. Do you think Criminea should be given to Russia if they can win a poll or do you critically think about why a poll might indicate it. Do you magic power think Palestinians would be better off if Hamas won? If so state your case, if not stop. I absolutely do believe that Palestinians would be better off under Hamas rule if they had their own state with no oppression by Israel. Yes. Glad you finally said it. I completely disagree. How do you deal with their complete lack of respect for human rights, especially those of women? Complete lack of respect for human rights sounds exactly like Israeli oppression of Palestinians. I think that should settle the question. At least then they get to live under the rule that they chose for themselves. That’s false equivalence, are you trying to win an internet argument or is that what you really believe. Of course they should. A democracy would be fantastic. Pretending that extodinarly abused women since childhood have any say or are choosing it is horrible. It is worse than the western attitude of she wanted it because of how she dressed or acted. Do better please.
It's not a false equivalence. The oppression by Israel is worse than whatever oppression you imagine by Hamas. The vast majority of Palestinians apparently support Sharia Law. I posted the link to the survey results. Any comments on that?
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On December 29 2023 08:33 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2023 08:12 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 07:42 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 07:08 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 06:49 Magic Powers wrote:On December 29 2023 06:37 Mohdoo wrote:On December 29 2023 03:14 Magic Powers wrote:
I don't want to justify anything. You keep ignoring the part where I say that this is how Hamas justifies it. Not others, not me.
And no, the IDF is not fighting against oppressors. They're fighting against an aggressor. Hamas has not oppressed Israel, they don't have the means for that. Israel is not being oppressed by Hamas, but Hamas oppresses their constituents. But even if we ignore the whole oppression component of Hamas, the fact that their goals are very clearly stated as extending beyond Israel means it isn't sufficient or even honest to frame the situation as Hamas being entirely internal to the Israel-Palestine conflict.Mahmoud al-Zahar is the co-founder of Hamas, so I think his perspective on the goals of Hamas are relevant here. "The entire planet will be under our law; there will be no more Jews or Christian traitors.".
“We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me," Zahar said in the video that was published on MEMRI TV in December 2022,
“The entire 510 million square kilometers of Planet Earth will come under [a system] where there is no injustice, no oppression, no Zionism, no treacherous Christianity and no killings and crimes like those being committed against the Palestinians, and against the Arabs in all the Arab countries, in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and other countries," he said.
Hamas as a movement has evolved a lot over the course of its existence, and has borrowed from this and that over the course of its evolution. Changes in leadership and developing global political situations have led to certain voices being stronger or weaker over time. The root of the current form of Hamas can be traced back to the Ottoman empire. Pan-Islamism has of course been around for a very long time, but the current context of pan-Islamism became louder towards the end of the Ottoman empire and then became 1 of 2 dominant perspectives after the fall of the Ottoman empire. In the early years after the fall of the Ottoman empire, Arab nationalism dominated and suppressed pan-islamism and islamists were oppressed and tortured and whatnot to prevent them from gaining too much power and overthrowing Arab nationalists. Pan-Islamism was mostly dead in the dirt in the 1950s, largely because Nasser was remarkably successful as the leader of Egypt and had a couple really clutch military wins against the west during his rule. But when he got cocky and overextended, he basically went all-in and lost everything during the 6 day war. After the 6 day war, Arab nationalism was on life support and pan-islamism became dominant again. But its important to keep in mind pan-islamism, despite being a major component of the current form of Hamas, was not some kind of reaction to Israel. Pan-Islamism has been around for a very long time. Pan-Islamism has been the enemy of Arab nationalism, then the enemy of colonialism, then the enemy of the west as a whole, and so on and so forth. Its not that pan-Islamism wouldn't exist without Israel. Israel is just the best rallying cry for Islamists at the moment. The quote I included above from one of Hamas's founders does not make sense if we assume Hamas's ideology is just some kinda "freedom fighter" movement against Israel. But it makes complete sense when you contextualize it within the history of Arab nationalism, pan-islamism, and the general idea of a caliphate. I just wanted to take the time to elaborate on why I have said Hamas isn't some kind of Israel-exclusive movement and that Israel not existing would have prevented the whole thing. It is an extension of pan-Islamism, and we have a wealth of information and history to show us where Hamas leadership got their ideas, and the history of those ideas. Events in history can give a movement and ideology a lot of extra power, but we have seen highs and lows in both Arab nationalism and pan-Islamism throughout history. We can't pretend this whole problem goes away in some fictitious situation where Israel never existed to begin with. We even have their own words, shown above, that clearly indicate what the goals of pan-Islamism are. Apparently this keeps going over people's heads. I'm not arguing that Hamas' conquest would, if successful, remain restricted to Israel or Palestine. I didn't say that anywhere. What I'm saying is that Hamas can reasonably argue that they're fighting against oppressors. This point is indisputable, because Israel is in fact an oppressor of Palestinians. Whether we like it or not, this gives credibility to Hamas' call to violence of Palestinians against the Israeli population. Since Palestinians are in fact oppressed by Israel, therefore Hamas cannot be strictly labeled a pure evil. Instead they're an evil born out of oppression. You may not like to hear this, but it's true. Hamas is fueled by righteousness, not by bloodlust. Their bloodlust follows from their righteousness. Whatever other calls for violence Hamas sends out to Palestinians - against people outside of Israel and against non-Jews - are simply a result of the existing extremist views against Israel. Everything follows. The US supports Israel. The UN is powerless to stop the US. European nations are not sanctioning the US for supporting Israel, and instead engaged in open trade. And so forth. The whole train of thought goes from "destroy Israel" to "destroy every supporter of Israel", because the root of Hamas' righteousness is true: Israel oppresses the Palestinians. As long as this one idea is true, every other idea follows. Hamas is therefore not inherently evil (as the Nazis were). Their evil actions are caused by their righteousness. Hamas can only be destroyed after Israel has stopped oppressing Palestinians. Its not novel to point out that people think what they are doing is good. I don't doubt many of these Islamist dipshits think they have the right idea. But moral relativism has no value, and it doesn't mean anything for someone to think they are doing something good. They are doing bad things and there's no incentive to pat them on the head for being wrong about something. If you read what I said, you will see that Hamas's ideology was not born out of oppression because it predates Israel. They have been fighting against this and that for a long time. Israel is just the big rallying cry for them right now. Pan-Islamist ideology being appealing to enemies of Israel does not mean the ideology was born from Israel. The ideology that currently dominates Hamas existed before Israel. Israel is something their ideology totally hates, but it would exist with or without Israel. We know this because it existed before Israel. Maybe its worth just pausing at this point and asking if this makes sense and if you agree. Do you think pan-islamist ideology existed before Israel? Do you think the founding members of Hamas and the movements that came before Hamas held pan-islamist views prior to the formation of Israel? Edit: Are you familiar with the history of Arab Nationalism's conflict with pan-Islamist ideology both before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire? I'm not patting anyone on the head. Certainly not Hamas. Or if I did, I'm sure you can quote me on it. Meanwhile I can quote the many times I condemned Hamas. Would Hamas exist without Israel? What does that mean? I don't quite understand. It would mean that the only possible oppression of Palestinians would be internal. Their own leaders. We can discuss that, but it has nothing to do with the Israel-Gaza conflict. Assuming we conclude that Hamas would be oppressing Palestinians, that wouldn't change anything about the fact that one oppressor (Israel) would be out of the way. This is indisputable. Israel isn't "saving Palestinians from the oppression of Hamas". That's not what's happening. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, and if or when Hamas is out of the picture, that oppression will continue. It won't end with Hamas. If Hamas can even be ended to begin with. Let me contextualize this in another way: Think about “moms for liberty”, which is a right wing group that focuses on legal topics pertaining to LGBTQ people. They focus a lot of their energy on fighting against trans rights and gay rights. But many of the people involved were not actually radicalized by trans people in particular. It’s their main purpose right now, but it’s not what got them into that ideology. I’m not sure how old you are or what things are like in your country, but as a 35 year old American, I had plenty of friends growing up who had religious fundamentalist parents. Their parents took a hard line stance against dragon ball Z. Any kind of symbolism or topic involving dragons was deeply heretical to them. They advocated for banning DBZ at school and stuff like that. These same people did all the same stuff with Harry Potter because they considered magic to be an affront to god. And now same thing with trans people. It’s not that DBZ radicalized these folks. They held all these views long before even having kids. This far right social movement is an example of how even if there is a current lightning rod topic that all of their followers focus on, and even if that is their main method of recruitment at a given time, the movement existed way before that and they had disagreements with many other topics before that. Similarly, the founding of Hamas involved people who subscribed to pan-Islamist beliefs before Israel existed. And as the organization gained and lost leaders, the focus increasingly became Israel because anyone who held a pan-islamist world view would see Israel as the absolute highest level of evil according to pan-Islamism. Furthermore, Palestinians who hated Israel heard what pan islamists were saying and agreed with them. But taking a step back, just like the parents who hated DBZ, many of the leaders and older members hated other stuff before Israel existed. The people who taught them these beliefs taught other people too, and they moved other places and participated in pan Islamist movements unrelated to Israel. Here is where I think you have misunderstood the situation: Hamas is not saying they will eliminate everyone else and establish a caliphate because they hate all those people for helping Israel. This isn’t a “I hate you and all your friends” movement. This is an existing movement that has voiced the same beliefs before Israel. Their leaders hated other stuff before Israel. The movement has other factions unrelated to Israel. Please read that quote from a few posts ago again. That line of thinking did not begin because people helped Israel. That line of thinking was present during the Ottoman Empire. Scholars from the Ottoman Empire went on to play major roles in Iran later in life. This topic is much larger than you are giving credit. If Israel vanished tomorrow, Hamas would not hang up their bomb vests and decide to leave their life of violence behind. They wouldn’t look up at the sky and say “finally, evil has been vanquished, and I can live a happy life as a carpenter.”. There are tons of other things they will go on to be violent about. The Israel conflict is a means of recruitment and it is a topic highly relevant to pan Islamist ideology. But for the same reason Iran has other priorities besides Israel, pan Islamism does too. Israel can’t be labeled as the core motivation or birthing moment of Hamas. Firstly, Hamas is caused by oppression. The Palestinians don't want to be oppressed. This is why there was support for Hamas to begin with. Secondly, Hamas can beat their chests about world domination all they want, it won't happen. They weren't even able to defeat Israel, and they will never be able to. They certainly won't get anywhere beyond that. Absolutely they won't. Thirdly, if the oppression of Palestinians ends, then Hamas naturally weakens externally. This is because most people don't want to go to war with other countries that aren't visibly oppressing them. Hamas will not be able to project aggression outwards into Western nations. The Palestinian people will have what they want, Hamas will have what they want, and then the Palestinians will have to figure out how to deal with a potential oppression by Hamas - if they even want to deal with them at all. Similar end result (although different path) as Afghanistan with the Taliban. Fourthly, if Hamas are somehow able to project outwards aggression after the oppression by Israel ends (in an alternate universe), that would change nothing about the fact that the oppressor of Palestinians is, first and foremost, Israel. Hamas is secondary.
The last couple of responses have indicated you are breezing through my posts to get the gist of what I am saying. I don't blame you, because I am writing up very long posts and not everyone feels like reading all of it. But I also think its possible I am doing a bad job at explaining these concepts. So I am going to give it another shot and hope I do a better job and we're able to have a productive conversation. I take to put it all together is worthwhile for the sake of the continued interaction and opportunity to increase my understanding of other viewpoints. If my posts are so long that you just don't even feel like it, I take no offense, but please do let me know. I will focus my attention on other sub-topics and other conversations if this system is not appealing to you.
With that being said...!
Think of Islamism as religious fundamentalism. Islamism nations/groups view nations like Saudi Arabia as insufficiently strictly adhering to Muslim traditionalism/government. Before, during, and after the Ottoman empire, Islamists have been waging wars and revolutions against Arab nationalists. They view Christians, Jews, and even insufficiently Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia as enemies. Their ultimate goal is to wipe out all non-Islamists and rule the world under a single caliphate.
Arab Nationalism = Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and others Islamism = Iran, Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, ISIS, and other extra crazy folks
Hamas does not like Israel. Many other Islamist groups do not like Israel for the reasons I listed above. Many Islamist groups hate basically everyone else, because the whole point of their ideology is to be so strict that even Saudi Arabia is not Muslim enough and must be destroyed. Before any of this Israel stuff, Islamists did a bunch of terrorism stuff just like Hamas against other groups and other nations, even Muslim nations that subscribed to Arab Nationalism rather than Islamism.
Islamism is an example of a movement which has many purposes, fights against many other movements, and generally is extremely militant, because the entire core of their movement is strict adherence to religious doctrine and to eliminate everything else. Similarly, Christian fundamentalists have fought against many things throughout history. Currently, these groups focus a lot on trans rights because they are a hot button topic that is a great way to bring other people into their movement and fight alongside them. Many people who are not Christian fundamentalists end up aligning with Christian fundamentalists because they hold views that align with them on trans issues. When people who consider themselves "anti-woke" ally themselves with Christian fundamentalists, it is an example of how a movement will grow and shrink over time depending on current events in the world. These "anti-woke" folks likely disagree with Christian fundamentalists on many issues, but they are side-by-side when it comes to issues pertaining to trans people.
Many groups/nations in the middle east deeply dislike Israel. The groups/nations that express their hatred of Israel in the form of martyr stuff and general terrorism nonsense are all Islamist. Hamas is not the only group that does terrorism stuff to Israel. Hezbollah and other Islamist groups do terrorism stuff to Israel too. So that means despite all of these groups hating Israel, only some of them take it to the level of actual terrorism and military stuff. The commonality between them is that they are all Islamist. That's why even nations that neighbor Israel don't take as much direct action as Houthis do. Houthis are very geographically removed, just like Iran, but they still play a big role and do everything they can to use violence against Israel.
Houthis, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood hate a bunch of different things, and they use violence against all of them. In the absence of the formation if Israel, we can safely assume Islamists will continue to use any and all military options available to them against all non-Islamists. So we have now established many nations and groups that hate Israel do not use violence against Israel. And we have established the groups that use violence against Israel also use violence against other entities. And by tracing the ideological lineage of the founding members of Hamas, the current leaders of Hamas, and the diplomatic/ideological ties of Hamas, we can determine their Islamist ideology applies to many non-Israel situations. And we have proof of that in both modern history and pre-Ottoman history. Do you see that indicates Islamist ideology would continue to violently attack their enemies even in the absence of Israel? In the case of Hamas leadership, we even know many people were dedicating their lives to fighting other battles prior to Israel, which further indicates the Islamist ideology does not have a shortage of reasons to use violence. It is the whole point of their movement. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, Palestinian identity was strongly influenced by Islamism. This Islamism was a part of their identity even before anything to do with Israel. Since this post is already very long, I will just point out tensions between Arab Nationalism and Islamism existed where Palestinians were on the Islamism side of things. Palestinians were of course extra mad about Israel for obvious reasons. But I wanted to take a moment to explain in detail the history of Islamism vs Arab nationalism and how it relates to both current and future middle eastern conflict.
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