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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On August 13 2023 05:00 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be. What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway? How would that make you feel about your government? Ukrainians are paying between 4.000 -10.000 dollars US to get exemptions. Ive read that they estimated that over 2.5 billion dollars was extorted from an already impoverished population. You sell your home, you sell your land, you sell anything you can get your hands on to save your life. Is that fucking fair? Is that the way a beacon of democracy works? I dont think so. @Excludos sure mate you would be the first guy in the trenches 😂 something tells me you would reevaluate what the word genocide means and would look for a peaceful solution where your standard of living doesnt go from 'your biggest problem being which of the 13 different kinds of soy coffee you will drink today' to 'a minor problem being having nothing to eat'
Please provide your sources for your claim about reluctant Ukrainian soldiers being sent to frontline trenches. Not that this isn't happening at all anywhere, but you're painting it like it's normal and systemic and everyone should've heard about it a million times by now.
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On August 13 2023 05:22 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 05:00 zeo wrote:On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be. What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway Were Serbs free to come and go as they pleased in the Yugoslavian civil war(s)? A genuine question as I do not know. War is an ugly thing, ugly things may need to be done. Perhaps Russia shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine? But yes it is very ivory tower over here, realistically though it’s because nobody is actually going to invade my country. It’s just not going to happen. If it did, I’d fight. Probably be a useless soldier, probably die. But if some foreign power somehow turned up on my doorstep, yeah. And on the nationalism scale I’m maybe a 2/10 at tops Peacekeeping operations, we have enough professional soldiers, they can do it. Folly foreign excursions like Iraq and Afghanistan we shouldn’t have done to begin with. While I don’t doubt our (general) professionalism in such theatres we shouldn’t fucking be there to begin with.
If you lived in Bosnia basically the entire Serb, Muslim and Croat populations it seemed like were under arms. 'Officially' Yugoslavia/Serbia did not have troops there and those that went were volontiers. They were not mobilized, there were more than enough volontiers.
Yugoslavia was under hardcore sanctions no food no nothing could come in and if we didnt have a powerful pre war agricultural sector with basic strategic foods we would have all starved to death. You could leave the country freely, not like you were going to be stopped at the border by a Serb official. Same goes for Bosnia and Croatia, I dont think anyone imposed any bans on leaving their country.
You had to be able to leave the country so you could smuggle in fuel, coffee, cigaretes ect. and keep the economy afloat.
Even in 99' the army wasnt 'deployed' to Kosovo. It was a police force sent on anti-guerilla duty and it was our regular army in their barracks. There was no point to mobilization because we held every single population center there and when NATO bombing started... Well not like mobilizing some guy is going to shoot down a NATO airplane...
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Northern Ireland23226 Posts
On August 13 2023 05:49 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 05:22 WombaT wrote:On August 13 2023 05:00 zeo wrote:On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be. What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway Were Serbs free to come and go as they pleased in the Yugoslavian civil war(s)? A genuine question as I do not know. War is an ugly thing, ugly things may need to be done. Perhaps Russia shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine? But yes it is very ivory tower over here, realistically though it’s because nobody is actually going to invade my country. It’s just not going to happen. If it did, I’d fight. Probably be a useless soldier, probably die. But if some foreign power somehow turned up on my doorstep, yeah. And on the nationalism scale I’m maybe a 2/10 at tops Peacekeeping operations, we have enough professional soldiers, they can do it. Folly foreign excursions like Iraq and Afghanistan we shouldn’t have done to begin with. While I don’t doubt our (general) professionalism in such theatres we shouldn’t fucking be there to begin with. If you lived in Bosnia basically the entire Serb, Muslim and Croat populations it seemed like were under arms. 'Officially' Yugoslavia/Serbia did not have troops there and those that went were volontiers. They were not mobilized, there were more than enough volontiers. Yugoslavia was under hardcore sanctions no food no nothing could come in and if we didnt have a powerful pre war agricultural sector with basic strategic foods we would have all starved to death. You could leave the country freely, not like you were going to be stopped at the border by a Serb official. Same goes for Bosnia and Croatia, I dont think anyone imposed any bans on leaving their country. You had to be able to leave the country so you could smuggle in fuel, coffee, cigaretes ect. and keep the economy afloat. Even in 99' the army wasnt 'deployed' to Kosovo. It was a police force sent on anti-guerilla duty and it was our regular army in their barracks. There was no point to mobilization because we held every single population center there and when NATO bombing started... Well not like mobilizing some guy is going to shoot down a NATO airplane...
Interesting, thanks for that
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On August 13 2023 05:34 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 05:00 zeo wrote:On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be. What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway? How would that make you feel about your government? Ukrainians are paying between 4.000 -10.000 dollars US to get exemptions. Ive read that they estimated that over 2.5 billion dollars was extorted from an already impoverished population. You sell your home, you sell your land, you sell anything you can get your hands on to save your life. Is that fucking fair? Is that the way a beacon of democracy works? I dont think so. @Excludos sure mate you would be the first guy in the trenches 😂 something tells me you would reevaluate what the word genocide means and would look for a peaceful solution where your standard of living doesnt go from 'your biggest problem being which of the 13 different kinds of soy coffee you will drink today' to 'a minor problem being having nothing to eat' Please provide your sources for your claim about reluctant Ukrainian soldiers being sent to frontline trenches. Not that this isn't happening at all anywhere, but you're painting it like it's normal and systemic and everyone should've heard about it a million times by now.
You might have forgotten how horrible Bahmut was but I havent. A WSJ article:
36 Hours in Bakhmut: One Unit’s Desperate Battle to Hold Back the Russians
A group of 16 draftees lost 11 who were killed or captured. Whether it was worth the cost depends on a widely anticipated offensive.
KOSTYANTYNIVKA, Ukraine—Pvt. Oleksiy Malkovskiy, an unemployed father of three, fired a rocket-propelled grenade for the first time in his life on the front lines of the battle for Bakhmut in February.
Russian troops were assaulting one of the apartment blocks that his group of 16 draftees, many of whom had been enlisted days earlier and given no training, had been assigned to defend.
Malkovskiy missed. The Russians fired their own RPG and hit the wall beside him, leaving him concussed. He ran from the building and hid in a vegetable patch, his ears buzzing. When he returned after sundown, the bodies of two of his comrades lay in the room.
Over the 36 hours he spent in brutal house-to-house combat in the eastern Ukrainian city, 11 of the 16 men from Malkovskiy’s group of draftees were either killed or captured, according to surviving soldiers and relatives of the missing.
------
The 16 men including Malkovskiy, enlisted into the 5th company of Ukraine’s 93rd Mechanized Brigade, left Kharkiv on Feb. 16 by bus for the brigade’s base 2½ hours’ drive south.
The passengers were mostly poor men from villages in the northeastern Kharkiv region, many of them unemployed, doing odd jobs as handymen or shift work at factories in the regional capital. Many had received mobilization notices that month, according to their military-service records. While some had completed mandatory service years or decades earlier, almost none had seen active combat.
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On the morning of Feb. 21, the company sergeant major arrived to say he had orders to send the men into Bakhmut in groups of six. Russian forces were edging closer to the river that bisects the city, pressuring Ukrainian units defending themselves from constant mortar and artillery bombardment.
Some of the men threatened to write an official refusal to follow the order, citing a lack of training. Vladyslav Yudin, an ex-convict from the eastern city of Luhansk, said he told the sergeant major he had never held a gun, let alone shot one, and was scared. “Bakhmut will teach you,” he said the man replied
https://www.wsj.com/articles/36-hours-in-bakhmut-one-units-desperate-battle-to-hold-back-the-russians-72e30f01#comments_sector
Ive read my fair share of these articles. Western reporters interviewing Ukraininan men that, like in this article tell them that they were mobilized days before and have never held a gun in their life. These people were thrown into Bahmut in large numbers to buy the time for their NATO trained army to get their offensive together... Like you care in any case.
Imagine being told 'Bahmut will teach you'. The worst part is that these journos get harrassed later by 'patriots' because they are not painting a pretty picture. Those same patriots stay as far away from the front line as humanly possible
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United States41635 Posts
What’s weird is that you’re on the side of the rapists and murderers making Bakhmut a hell on earth. That makes your pleas of “won’t anyone think of the poor draftees” ring a little hollow.
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"The wives of the missing men are angry that they were sent into Bakhmut without training. The vast majority of mobilized soldiers in Ukraine receive at least minimal preparation, and cases of untrained men being ordered to fight aren’t widespread. But Ukrainian law doesn’t specify how long training should last, and lawyers say recruits can do little beyond lodging a complaint via their commanders or a Defense Ministry hotline.
Ukrainian lawmakers in February introduced a bill mandating a minimum of three months’ preparation for mobilized troops, but it hasn’t advanced through Parliament. Ukraine’s Defense Ministry denied sending soldiers without training into Bakhmut, and an officer from the 93rd said he hadn’t heard of such cases in his unit. “If it happens, it’s wrong,” he said. A spokesman for Ukraine’s armed forces declined to comment."
It's been condemned, it's been addressed, and it doesn't appear to be systemic whatsoever.
Not quite a non-story, but certainly not in the least comparable to the Russian way of mobilizing men. So this is once again an example of anti-Ukrainian bias by our "neutral" zeo, as expected.
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On August 13 2023 06:06 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 05:34 Magic Powers wrote:On August 13 2023 05:00 zeo wrote:On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be. What would you do if your country closed the borders and sent armed men to press gang you into sitting in a trench somewhere waiting to get shelled by Russians? You dont go to jail if you dont want to go, you get the shit kicked out of you and you go anyway? How would that make you feel about your government? Ukrainians are paying between 4.000 -10.000 dollars US to get exemptions. Ive read that they estimated that over 2.5 billion dollars was extorted from an already impoverished population. You sell your home, you sell your land, you sell anything you can get your hands on to save your life. Is that fucking fair? Is that the way a beacon of democracy works? I dont think so. @Excludos sure mate you would be the first guy in the trenches 😂 something tells me you would reevaluate what the word genocide means and would look for a peaceful solution where your standard of living doesnt go from 'your biggest problem being which of the 13 different kinds of soy coffee you will drink today' to 'a minor problem being having nothing to eat' Please provide your sources for your claim about reluctant Ukrainian soldiers being sent to frontline trenches. Not that this isn't happening at all anywhere, but you're painting it like it's normal and systemic and everyone should've heard about it a million times by now. You might have forgotten how horrible Bahmut was but I havent. A WSJ article: 36 Hours in Bakhmut: One Unit’s Desperate Battle to Hold Back the RussiansA group of 16 draftees lost 11 who were killed or captured. Whether it was worth the cost depends on a widely anticipated offensive.Show nested quote +KOSTYANTYNIVKA, Ukraine—Pvt. Oleksiy Malkovskiy, an unemployed father of three, fired a rocket-propelled grenade for the first time in his life on the front lines of the battle for Bakhmut in February.
Russian troops were assaulting one of the apartment blocks that his group of 16 draftees, many of whom had been enlisted days earlier and given no training, had been assigned to defend.
Malkovskiy missed. The Russians fired their own RPG and hit the wall beside him, leaving him concussed. He ran from the building and hid in a vegetable patch, his ears buzzing. When he returned after sundown, the bodies of two of his comrades lay in the room.
Over the 36 hours he spent in brutal house-to-house combat in the eastern Ukrainian city, 11 of the 16 men from Malkovskiy’s group of draftees were either killed or captured, according to surviving soldiers and relatives of the missing.
------
The 16 men including Malkovskiy, enlisted into the 5th company of Ukraine’s 93rd Mechanized Brigade, left Kharkiv on Feb. 16 by bus for the brigade’s base 2½ hours’ drive south.
The passengers were mostly poor men from villages in the northeastern Kharkiv region, many of them unemployed, doing odd jobs as handymen or shift work at factories in the regional capital. Many had received mobilization notices that month, according to their military-service records. While some had completed mandatory service years or decades earlier, almost none had seen active combat.
--------
On the morning of Feb. 21, the company sergeant major arrived to say he had orders to send the men into Bakhmut in groups of six. Russian forces were edging closer to the river that bisects the city, pressuring Ukrainian units defending themselves from constant mortar and artillery bombardment.
Some of the men threatened to write an official refusal to follow the order, citing a lack of training. Vladyslav Yudin, an ex-convict from the eastern city of Luhansk, said he told the sergeant major he had never held a gun, let alone shot one, and was scared. “Bakhmut will teach you,” he said the man replied https://www.wsj.com/articles/36-hours-in-bakhmut-one-units-desperate-battle-to-hold-back-the-russians-72e30f01#comments_sectorIve read my fair share of these articles. Western reporters interviewing Ukraininan men that, like in this article tell them that they were mobilized days before and have never held a gun in their life. These people were thrown into Bahmut in large numbers to buy the time for their NATO trained army to get their offensive together... Like you care in any case. Imagine being told 'Bahmut will teach you'. The worst part is that these journos get harrassed later by 'patriots' because they are not painting a pretty picture. Those same patriots stay as far away from the front line as humanly possible
Save your crocodile tears. Have you done anything to help the Ukrainians in their struggle? Donated any money? Volunteered? All you've been doing is spreading Russian propaganda and pretending to be concerned.
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On August 12 2023 21:27 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 20:54 Nezgar wrote:On August 12 2023 19:29 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist. -i'm very interested who is that Nazi economist (straight from the 3rd Reich I hope). More seriously, fascism is a very vague term. Some historians claim the political regimes in ancient Greece and Rome were fascist. Should we completely cancel them from the historical books? In my opinion your "I won't take a dump in the same field with a fascist" is itself more abnormal and totalitarian. What I think is an undeniable act of a fascist state - is to burn 50 people alive, and then let the perpetrators off the court. But you perhaps dont even know what i'm talking about, and how it is related to the war - because your media guides very carefully where you need to look, and where not. On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure. -i've managed to provide a certain piece of article of a decent reputation. It is not of my business to sort through all the internet for a possible contradiction to it. If @maybenexttime is sure that the claim is wrong, he is also better informed, and knows where to find the arguments against it. It is indeed someone straight from the 3rd Reich, though calling him an economist might have missed the mark a little. I am talking about Carl Schmitt, someone that Putin himself is clearly very fond of. Everything you said after that is some of the dumbest shit anyone can write. Condemning a political stance does not mean that you have to purge it from the history books. I know that Russians have a hard time understanding this, but you can look at the past through an objective lens and accept that things in the past have been atrocious and learn from that past to not repeat the same mistakes. And your claim of "Your dislike of totalitarianism is itself totalitarian" is just absurdly stupid. I am baffled that you can write that and not burst out laughing at your own nonsense. It's akin to saying "Your dislike of intolerant people makes you intolerant, so we are pretty much the same. Maybe you are even more intolerant because of it" and it's just... I don't even know, if you cannot see how absurd that stance is, no argument of reason will get past the defenses against logic and reason that you have erected around your worldview. You might just be irredeemably lost in your own bullshit with no interest to engage in honest or critical discourse. -but you make it not discussable yourself. You just label everyone you dislike a fascist, and thats it. I'm not familiar with Schmitt or Iliyin's works. If I've missed some clear fascistic statements or actions of my government - name it; besides that I don't see a point of discussion. And your claim on me needing to reflect on this matter is laughable - because what you wrote here is exactly the main discourse of a lot of Russian "liberals" from Novaya Gazeta. I know this stuff since the beginning of 2000's - they've been mass-producing this shit on American taxpayers money. This is similar to how every German is repeatedly told that they are the villains of Europe - to create a guilty complex for WW2, even in far descendants of the people, who actually took part in it. The difference between us is that I want the one who teaches me morales to behave appropriately, while you take the same shit at the face value.
I am not labelling everyone I dislike as a fascist. I label the fascists as fascists because that is what they are.
I did not mention Ilyin by name but I think it's telling that you immediately knew who I meant when I said that Putin imported the corpse of a fascist thinker to Russia. If two of your president's main political and philosophical inspirations are a literal and unrepentant Nazi, and a fascist like Ilyin, there is not much guesswork involved to figure out which direction Putin leans towards.
Worse than Putin and other members of the government quoting those two is that viewing their actions through the lens of Schmitt and Ilyin makes sense of their actions. It explains why they say what they say and do what they do. And if you cannot recognize that as your government aligning themselves towards fascism, I cannot help you anymore. No one can.
You could look into those names, their work and worldview, and see the connections to your government and how they operate. You could do those things if you were willing to entertain the thought that this is possible. You could do those things if you were capable of critical thinking and serious reflection. But you are not. And that is why I wrote that you are irredeemable.
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On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts.
What retaliations? Russia has already done everything they could "retaliate" with barring literal nukes.
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On August 13 2023 04:51 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 04:44 zeo wrote:Easy for you to say living 1000km away from where these retaliations will take place. You wont be the one being mobilized and dieing for the millionare politicians cooking up these publicity stunts. Zelensky fires military recruitment center chiefs after corruption probeZelensky announced the blanket dismissal after a meeting of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council. He cited instances of “illicit enrichment,” laundering “illegally obtained funds” and the “illegal transportation of persons liable for military service across the border” to Ukraine’s western neighbors to avoid the draft.
“Some took cash, some took cryptocurrency — that’s the only difference,” Zelensky said in a statement published on the official presidential website. “The cynicism is the same everywhere.” Zelensky did not specify the total number of regional recruitment heads.
Ukraine instituted a ban on men from the ages of 18-60 from leaving the country, with the exception of a few categories, at the beginning of the war.
Ukrainian forces are struggling to advance in their two-month-old counteroffensive against Russia, and there are growing signs of fatigue among Ukrainians after a year and half of grinding conflict. Cant have any Ukranian male slip though now can we. Even the rich ones of military age that were bribing officials since day one are having second thoughts. At least we will be seeing way more potential Abrams tank drivers hitting recruitment officers in the head with bricks or being pulled from hidden compartments inside vehicles at the border. And we've been getting quite a few videos each day for a while now. Maybe the more bloodthirsty warmonger citizens of EU countries can step in and take the place of those Ukrainians that dont want to die for Zelensky. After all the war must go to the very end, to the last Ukraini- I mean Russian! I would 100% do the same thing if Russia invaded here, no chance I would stick around if I could get out. Or if my country invaded, just as many Russians left Russia. I don't have a strong feeling of connection to my country or society in general. I am of the defeatist camp that makes invasions very easy. The cost of defending is too high to do it. At least against most modern opponents. If it was the classical armies where slaves and brides are part of the takings then things get much more iffy. So the actions Russia takes actually puts them closer to the classical armies and drives resistance in many demographics. I still think it is good that there are Ukrainians that have higher morals than me. Stopping Russia from moving on here afterwards. I am happy that a majority are willing to take the fight that I would not be.
There is no shame in refusing fighting in a war.
For myself, I would fly to Finland in a second if there was a conflict starting. Not sure I'd do the same for France. Happy to fight for a country that is organised and mentally prepared for the fight.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
This guy is a high-ranking propagandist, and the type I despise the most - a pseudo-scientist. People like him serve to authorities by making an arbitrary policy look scientifically-based. This has become an epidemy in the western social sciences, and corrupted the policymaking institute. A recent example - I've seen an economics paper, which explains that a price cap would lead to increased production of a good (obviously to make a "scientific ground" to the oil price cap on Russia).
This particular article is simply full of lies.
>>Russia has a cult of the dead, organized around World War II.
-just what cult? The Victory Day is respected and is a national holiday, by why it should not be so? It does not have any 'cultistic' aspect to it. Given the scale of the losses and the existential threat to USSR in WW2, Snyder's claim is as perverse as to say that Jews have created a cult over the Holocaust memory.
>> It has a myth of a past golden age of imperial greatness
-I don't even know which exact empire he means. If it is about USSR, this is shared by ~1% of population, and can be easily seen if you browse the 'politics' section of any russian social-media
>>The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real.
-Logics? - never heard of.
>>Today it is Russia that is denying Ukrainian food to the world, threatening famine in the global south
-Russia had been prolonging the grain deal without its claims (on de-sanctioning fertilizers) being met several times. So it is very easy to see, which side doesn't care about global famine.
His historical part of the article also fails under any critics. There is a number of prominent historians who claim Snyder's works to be superficial and stretched to fit the agenda that he promotes. See, for example Evans, Richard. 2010. “Who remember the Poles?” London Review of Books (4 November): 21–22
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On August 13 2023 17:18 a_ch wrote:This guy is a high-ranking propagandist, and the type I despise the most - a pseudo-scientist. People like him serve to authorities by making an arbitrary policy look scientifically-based. This has become an epidemy in the western social sciences, and corrupted the policymaking institute. A recent example - I've seen an economics paper, which explains that a price cap would lead to increased production of a good (obviously to make a "scientific ground" to the oil price cap on Russia). This particular article is simply full of lies. >>Russia has a cult of the dead, organized around World War II. -just what cult? The Victory Day is respected and is a national holiday, by why it should not be so? It does not have any 'cultistic' aspect to it. Given the scale of the losses and the existential threat to USSR in WW2, Snyder's claim is as pervert as to say that Jews have created a cult over the Holocaust memory. >> It has a myth of a past golden age of imperial greatness -I don't even know which exact empire he means. If it is about USSR, this is shared by ~1% of population, and can be easily seen if you browse the 'politics' section of any russian social-media >>The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real. -Logics? - never heard of. >>Today it is Russia that is denying Ukrainian food to the world, threatening famine in the global south -Russia have been prolonging the grain deal without its claims (on de-sanctioning fertilizers) being met several times. So it is very easy to see, which side doesn't care about global famine. His historical part of the article also fails under any critics. There is a number of prominent historians who claim Snyder's works to be superficial and stretched to fit the agenda that he promotes. See, for example Evans, Richard. 2010. “Who remember the Poles?” London Review of Books (4 November): 21–22
I'm not surprised a fascist despises intellectuals. ;-)
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 14 2008 13:13 KwarK wrote:
One interesting thing to think about is whether modern Russia is a fascist state. Fascism has always been tricky to describe. However I'll attempt to describe it as a popular nationalist movement, created by poor economic conditions and a sudden loss of national power and prestige, materialised in a charismatic leader willing to engage in aggressive rhetoric with the wider world while using his popularity to override democratic safeguards and consolidate his position as a Fuhrer and resulting in outward expansion as the rhetoric snowballs and the nationalistic fire that is his support needs more fuel to keep it burning. Centralisation of power, direct central appointment of previously democratic positions, taking over the media and removing constitutional blocks on central power. Putin’s Russia has all of these. It's definitely an interesting line of thought.
I find this insight amazing. If I read this back then, surely I dismissed it as some kind of amateur theory-politics. All these years they transitioned so smoothly to autocracy and now into fascism that it's hard to see when the lines have been crossed. But I'm glad people were able to see the conditions long before it happened. Gives me hope that in the future people will find solutions to stop such development before it's too late.
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On August 13 2023 17:18 a_ch wrote:This guy is a high-ranking propagandist, and the type I despise the most - a pseudo-scientist. People like him serve to authorities by making an arbitrary policy look scientifically-based. This has become an epidemy in the western social sciences, and corrupted the policymaking institute. A recent example - I've seen an economics paper, which explains that a price cap would lead to increased production of a good (obviously to make a "scientific ground" to the oil price cap on Russia). This particular article is simply full of lies. >>Russia has a cult of the dead, organized around World War II. -just what cult? The Victory Day is respected and is a national holiday, by why it should not be so? It does not have any 'cultistic' aspect to it. Given the scale of the losses and the existential threat to USSR in WW2, Snyder's claim is as pervert as to say that Jews have created a cult over the Holocaust memory. >> It has a myth of a past golden age of imperial greatness -I don't even know which exact empire he means. If it is about USSR, this is shared by ~1% of population, and can be easily seen if you browse the 'politics' section of any russian social-media >>The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real. -Logics? - never heard of. >>Today it is Russia that is denying Ukrainian food to the world, threatening famine in the global south -Russia have been prolonging the grain deal without its claims (on de-sanctioning fertilizers) being met several times. So it is very easy to see, which side doesn't care about global famine. His historical part of the article also fails under any critics. There is a number of prominent historians who claim Snyder's works to be superficial and stretched to fit the agenda that he promotes. See, for example Evans, Richard. 2010. “Who remember the Poles?” London Review of Books (4 November): 21–22
You do not even know what he is talking about. And that makes sense, because you do not know what kind of thinkers your government adores and models their modus operandi after.
"The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real."
This sentence might not make a whole lot of sense looking in from the outside. But from the perspective of a fascist and antisemitic government, there is no flaw in that logic. And that is the problem.
It shows that you do not understand what drives your government, why they do what they do and what their actions mean. You cannot understand why those things are problematic and why there is so much international pushback.
You do not know these things because you are uneducated on this topic. "I don't know what he is talking about, so it is false" is just not a good argument. It's not an argument at all.
And this is both hilarious and sad because earlier it was claimed how superior the education in Russia is compared to western countries. And you are a living testament that it is not. Because at the end of the day, you fell for Russian propaganda and are incapable of critical thought and reflection.
You could change that and start by looking into some of the names mentioned here earlier and how their thinking shapes the actions of your government and even society as a whole. Until you do, the only purpose you serve here is to give other people a look into the state of the Russian propaganda on its unthinking and unengaged citizens.
On August 13 2023 18:05 arbiter_md wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2008 13:13 KwarK wrote:
One interesting thing to think about is whether modern Russia is a fascist state. Fascism has always been tricky to describe. However I'll attempt to describe it as a popular nationalist movement, created by poor economic conditions and a sudden loss of national power and prestige, materialised in a charismatic leader willing to engage in aggressive rhetoric with the wider world while using his popularity to override democratic safeguards and consolidate his position as a Fuhrer and resulting in outward expansion as the rhetoric snowballs and the nationalistic fire that is his support needs more fuel to keep it burning. Centralisation of power, direct central appointment of previously democratic positions, taking over the media and removing constitutional blocks on central power. Putin’s Russia has all of these. It's definitely an interesting line of thought. I find this insight amazing. If I read this back then, surely I dismissed it as some kind of amateur theory-politics. All these years they transitioned so smoothly to autocracy and now into fascism that it's hard to see when the lines have been crossed. But I'm glad people were able to see the conditions long before it happened. Gives me hope that in the future people will find solutions to stop such development before it's too late.
I don't want to take anyway away from KwarK, but this tendency towards authoritarianism is deeply ingrained in the DNA of the Russian state and society. It is in their history and all throughout their history ever since Ivan the Terrible. They have never changed the way they operate, how they think about power and the role of its citizens. Putin is just the recent in a long list of Russian autocrats and until the nation does some serious collective reflecting on their past, he won't be the last.
I wish our government would have come to the same conclusion that KwarK and others have come to long ago. People have seen this coming since 2001, yet there were too many people blinded by hope that thought they could influence Russia by slowly pulling them further towards the west - and that simply doesn't work.
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On August 13 2023 18:09 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 17:18 a_ch wrote:This guy is a high-ranking propagandist, and the type I despise the most - a pseudo-scientist. People like him serve to authorities by making an arbitrary policy look scientifically-based. This has become an epidemy in the western social sciences, and corrupted the policymaking institute. A recent example - I've seen an economics paper, which explains that a price cap would lead to increased production of a good (obviously to make a "scientific ground" to the oil price cap on Russia). This particular article is simply full of lies. >>Russia has a cult of the dead, organized around World War II. -just what cult? The Victory Day is respected and is a national holiday, by why it should not be so? It does not have any 'cultistic' aspect to it. Given the scale of the losses and the existential threat to USSR in WW2, Snyder's claim is as pervert as to say that Jews have created a cult over the Holocaust memory. >> It has a myth of a past golden age of imperial greatness -I don't even know which exact empire he means. If it is about USSR, this is shared by ~1% of population, and can be easily seen if you browse the 'politics' section of any russian social-media >>The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real. -Logics? - never heard of. >>Today it is Russia that is denying Ukrainian food to the world, threatening famine in the global south -Russia have been prolonging the grain deal without its claims (on de-sanctioning fertilizers) being met several times. So it is very easy to see, which side doesn't care about global famine. His historical part of the article also fails under any critics. There is a number of prominent historians who claim Snyder's works to be superficial and stretched to fit the agenda that he promotes. See, for example Evans, Richard. 2010. “Who remember the Poles?” London Review of Books (4 November): 21–22 You do not even know what he is talking about. And that makes sense, because you do not know what kind of thinkers your government adores and models their modus operandi after. "The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real." This sentence might not make a whole lot of sense looking in from the outside. But from the perspective of a fascist and antisemitic government, there is no flaw in that logic. And that is the problem. It shows that you do not understand what drives your government, why they do what they do and what their actions mean. You cannot understand why those things are problematic and why there is so much international pushback. You do not know these things because you are uneducated on this topic. "I don't know what he is talking about, so it is false" is just not a good argument. It's not an argument at all. And this is both hilarious and sad because earlier it was claimed how superior the education in Russia is compared to western countries. And you are a living testament that it is not. Because at the end of the day, you fell for Russian propaganda and are incapable of critical thought and reflection. You could change that and start by looking into some of the names mentioned here earlier and how their thinking shapes the actions of your government and even society as a whole. Until you do, the only purpose you serve here is to give other people a look into the state of the Russian propaganda on its unthinking and unengaged citizens. Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 18:05 arbiter_md wrote:On August 14 2008 13:13 KwarK wrote:
One interesting thing to think about is whether modern Russia is a fascist state. Fascism has always been tricky to describe. However I'll attempt to describe it as a popular nationalist movement, created by poor economic conditions and a sudden loss of national power and prestige, materialised in a charismatic leader willing to engage in aggressive rhetoric with the wider world while using his popularity to override democratic safeguards and consolidate his position as a Fuhrer and resulting in outward expansion as the rhetoric snowballs and the nationalistic fire that is his support needs more fuel to keep it burning. Centralisation of power, direct central appointment of previously democratic positions, taking over the media and removing constitutional blocks on central power. Putin’s Russia has all of these. It's definitely an interesting line of thought. I find this insight amazing. If I read this back then, surely I dismissed it as some kind of amateur theory-politics. All these years they transitioned so smoothly to autocracy and now into fascism that it's hard to see when the lines have been crossed. But I'm glad people were able to see the conditions long before it happened. Gives me hope that in the future people will find solutions to stop such development before it's too late. I don't want to take anyway away from KwarK, but this tendency towards authoritarianism is deeply ingrained in the DNA of the Russian state and society. It is in their history and all throughout their history ever since Ivan the Terrible. They have never changed the way they operate, how they think about power and the role of its citizens. Putin is just the recent in a long list of Russian autocrats and until the nation does some serious collective reflecting on their past, he won't be the last. I wish our government would have come to the same conclusion that KwarK and others have come to long ago. People have seen this coming since 2001, yet there were too many people blinded by hope that thought they could influence Russia by slowly pulling them further towards the west - and that simply doesn't work.
The thing about Putin is that there weren't just warning signs, there were also many blatant war crimes and human rights violations that went ignored. Chechnya was warm-up for him. Around 18 years ago while I was getting surgery I met a boxer who was getting his broken nose fixed. He had fled to Austria from Chechnya and left some of his family behind. He described the horrible conditions in his country, including terror attacks against civilians well into the mid 2000's, and how Russia was responsible for all of it. I didn't understand politics back then and I didn't know if I should believe him. But it was very clear that he was speaking his own truth as he saw it. He wasn't lying. It was the first time I met someone who had seen the terror Putin's Russia was inflicting on other nations.
Our western leaders must've known this. This is why I think we have a moral duty to help Ukraine. We turned a blind eye, but we won't repeat the same mistake.
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On August 13 2023 18:05 arbiter_md wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2008 13:13 KwarK wrote:
One interesting thing to think about is whether modern Russia is a fascist state. Fascism has always been tricky to describe. However I'll attempt to describe it as a popular nationalist movement, created by poor economic conditions and a sudden loss of national power and prestige, materialised in a charismatic leader willing to engage in aggressive rhetoric with the wider world while using his popularity to override democratic safeguards and consolidate his position as a Fuhrer and resulting in outward expansion as the rhetoric snowballs and the nationalistic fire that is his support needs more fuel to keep it burning. Centralisation of power, direct central appointment of previously democratic positions, taking over the media and removing constitutional blocks on central power. Putin’s Russia has all of these. It's definitely an interesting line of thought. I find this insight amazing. If I read this back then, surely I dismissed it as some kind of amateur theory-politics. All these years they transitioned so smoothly to autocracy and now into fascism that it's hard to see when the lines have been crossed. But I'm glad people were able to see the conditions long before it happened. Gives me hope that in the future people will find solutions to stop such development before it's too late.
The thing about Putin, and why it happened like that, was simply that he was always saying the same thing. Those who were surprised by what is happening now, are those that dismissed what he was saying in the early 2000s.
There is 3 possibilities here:
1. We are here because we did not help enough Russia when Communism ended.
2. We are here because we helped too much and were not demanding enough early on, letting Russia build an economic power.
3. It does not matter what we would have done, the end goal is not compatible with our view of the world.
Russian propaganda plays on 1 and 2 depending on the situation, without caring about the contradiction. Contradictions create discourse that hides the real problem, we can see here that we can only discuss things about which Russians and pro-russians disagree about, but not discuss what they actually think (ok, little bit unfair as they do not have free speech, so we can only have active discussion with Russian that either have a pro-war opinion)
Let's just say that the situation with Russia is horrible when it was good 2 years ago, now with half our family in Russia, simple things like fair use of your money at the bank can be questioned at any time. Want a new apartment? Good luck getting a loan...
While everyday life still remain pretty much the same. We can see from outside russia that the frog is being slowly boiled alive.
I can see how well the propaganda works even though the mechanics of it have been theorized decades ago. Thing are slightly worse everyday, but it is always better than what could be if Putin fell out of power. At the same time, you repeat everyday that if something bad happens, it caused by the west. While everyone knows there is no ground in it in the daily basis, the goal of repeating that is simply that once someone notice there degree of damage done to economics, the power can say "We have been warning you about it for years".
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Russian Federation240 Posts
How does this
On August 13 2023 18:09 Nezgar wrote:
You do not even know what he is talking about. And that makes sense, because you do not know what kind of thinkers your government adores and models their modus operandi after.
"The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real."
This sentence might not make a whole lot of sense looking in from the outside. But from the perspective of a fascist and antisemitic government, there is no flaw in that logic. And that is the problem.
It shows that you do not understand what drives your government, why they do what they do and what their actions mean. You cannot understand why those things are problematic and why there is so much international pushback.
You do not know these things because you are uneducated on this topic. "I don't know what he is talking about, so it is false" is just not a good argument. It's not an argument at all.
And this is both hilarious and sad because earlier it was claimed how superior the education in Russia is compared to western countries. And you are a living testament that it is not. Because at the end of the day, you fell for Russian propaganda and are incapable of critical thought and reflection.
coexists in your head with this?
On August 13 2023 08:15 Nezgar wrote:
I did not mention Ilyin by name but I think it's telling that you immediately knew who I meant when I said that Putin imported the corpse of a fascist thinker to Russia. If two of your president's main political and philosophical inspirations are a literal and unrepentant Nazi, and a fascist like Ilyin, there is not much guesswork involved to figure out which direction Putin leans towards.
Its either I know the matter very well, or I don't; it cannot be both at the same time.
You're a perfect example of a brainwashed person, who is capable only of repeating propaganda cliche,
On August 13 2023 08:15 Nezgar wrote:
I don't want to take anyway away from KwarK, but this tendency towards authoritarianism is deeply ingrained in the DNA of the Russian state and society. It is in their history and all throughout their history ever since Ivan the Terrible. They have never changed the way they operate, how they think about power and the role of its citizens. Putin is just the recent in a long list of Russian autocrats and until the nation does some serious collective reflecting on their past, he won't be the last.
and a racist too. It sucks to be you, honestly.
I would discuss anything on "Russia a fascist state" if and only if you give clear examples or statements of our government officials. Not that there don't exist one, but this takes too much effort from me, and almost no effort from you, since all you do is retranslate anti-Russian propagandist crap, which have been produced for decades.
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On August 13 2023 22:07 a_ch wrote:How does this Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 18:09 Nezgar wrote:
You do not even know what he is talking about. And that makes sense, because you do not know what kind of thinkers your government adores and models their modus operandi after.
"The Kremlin defines Ukraine as an artificial state, whose Jewish president proves it cannot be real."
This sentence might not make a whole lot of sense looking in from the outside. But from the perspective of a fascist and antisemitic government, there is no flaw in that logic. And that is the problem.
It shows that you do not understand what drives your government, why they do what they do and what their actions mean. You cannot understand why those things are problematic and why there is so much international pushback.
You do not know these things because you are uneducated on this topic. "I don't know what he is talking about, so it is false" is just not a good argument. It's not an argument at all.
And this is both hilarious and sad because earlier it was claimed how superior the education in Russia is compared to western countries. And you are a living testament that it is not. Because at the end of the day, you fell for Russian propaganda and are incapable of critical thought and reflection.
coincides in your head with this? Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 08:15 Nezgar wrote:
I did not mention Ilyin by name but I think it's telling that you immediately knew who I meant when I said that Putin imported the corpse of a fascist thinker to Russia. If two of your president's main political and philosophical inspirations are a literal and unrepentant Nazi, and a fascist like Ilyin, there is not much guesswork involved to figure out which direction Putin leans towards. Its either I know the matter very well, or I don't; it cannot be both at the same time. You're a perfect example of a brainwashed person, who is capable only of repeating propaganda cliche, Show nested quote +On August 13 2023 08:15 Nezgar wrote:
I don't want to take anyway away from KwarK, but this tendency towards authoritarianism is deeply ingrained in the DNA of the Russian state and society. It is in their history and all throughout their history ever since Ivan the Terrible. They have never changed the way they operate, how they think about power and the role of its citizens. Putin is just the recent in a long list of Russian autocrats and until the nation does some serious collective reflecting on their past, he won't be the last. and a racist too. It sucks to be you, honestly. I would discuss anything on "Russia a fascist state" if and only if you give clear examples or statements of our government officials. Not that there don't exist one, but this takes too much effort from me, and almost no effort from you, since all you do is retranslate anti-Russian propagandist crap, which have been produced for decades.
Several people here have provided one example after another. You keep ignoring the examples. That's on you alone.
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United States41635 Posts
They don’t mean literal DNA of the people. They mean heavily entrenched in the society such that the people produced by the society are more likely to be a certain way. Like how support for the empire was produced and reinforced by 19th century Britain.
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EPT
