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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
It's interesting to see a bunch of straight white men(of which I am one) exhalting the benefits of the court system which has been designed to work primarily for the rich powerful white men for a long time now. Do you think you would be willing to go through the court system to see this through?
Look at Brock Turner. Literally a rapist and he gets 6 months incarceration because he "has a future" a.k.a is rich powerful(by proxy) and white. Do you think he would have had that little amount of jail time if he were black or insignificant or if his dad couldn't "donate" to the judge's next election campaign? Reasonable doubt is a much lower burden when you're looking at a black man from the ghetto for some gun charge than when you're looking at some rich white boy who has a skilled defence lawyer.
Prosecutors also like to keep their successful case numbers up by going after those most likely to be found guilty or who have weak legal defence or an open-shut case. They will generally only go after these rich powerful white men when there's a strong public outcry, when they need to take that case or get dropped. In order for there to be an outcry there needs to be some public case made, like these accusations. Harvey Weinstein was untouchable and raped/assaulted/harassed probably tens or hundreds of women before a public story in the New Yorker led to outcry so loud the prosecutors couldn't shield him any more. Suddenly everyone who was protecting or tolerating him was full of crocodile tears - "oh no, we never thought he could do anything that horrific!"
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
No, the takeaway is to stop protecting predators like JP probably did, and to start removing the missing staircases. We've been consistently willing to let many young people be harassed/assaulted and chased away by these monsters than we have been willing to even talk about the monsters. Instead we have people defending Godzilla tearing up downtown Tokyo like "we should ask his side of whether he ate that building or not. There's a court system for this." Throw them into the fire.
Not every accusation is true or accurate. Some are not particularly credible, such as the recent anonymous swathe of accusations against the Riverdale actors. However, when someone who is generally credible is willing to put their name out there and accuse someone the least we can do is take them very very seriously.
A small amount of the public accusations will be false. There are also a lot more assaults that people have not brought to the public. We see this every time there is a wave of accusations - people are not comfortable to bring these forward because there are too many people willing to tear them down for simply making the accusation, even if it is the most credible accusation possible. Therefore, the amount of false public accusations is entirely dwarfed by the true public accusations and true private assaults. About 35% of assaults are reported, of which ~8% may be false. This means there is roughly one false accusation for every 36 assaults. (0.35 * 0.08 = 0.028 false accusations out of 1, 0.972 assaults out of 1)
Since the numbers are this drastically one sided towards assaults instead of false accusations I generally willing to believe the accuser. In cases where things seem fishy, such as anonymous accusers or conflicting stories I withhold my judgement.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even using the words "complete fucking inappropriate moron" shows you have no real understanding of what this is about. It's called a "sexually harassing dickhead". Say it with me now.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
If 100 people saw him do it then probably. You won't have every illegal act, particularly rape, recorded on video, or viewed by anyone else. Just continuing with the status quo means we let rapists continue to get away with it. I'd rather we do something about it. Maybe a man who has more to fear from accusations than from rapists would think differently.
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Great post, WarSame, it's really nice to see that folks are taking the lessons from situations like that of Brock Turner and putting them into action.
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Bisutopia19144 Posts
On June 24 2020 23:01 Elmonti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:51 True_Spike wrote:On June 24 2020 22:23 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike. And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Sexual abuse / harassment won't go away because we blindly trust every person who posts something on social media. Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Making sure they know their rights, know when and how to prosecute offenders is important, because this way the actual abusers face the consequences of their actions, land behind bars or at the very least are prosecuted (and the more cases there are the more attention they will get as part of a systemic issue). It doesn't mean no other actions should be taken to make people as safe as possible - everywhere, everyone, under all circumstances. If people in the US are sentenced based on testimony of a single person and nothing else then I'd say maybe it's not the best judiciary system in the world and perhaps needs an overhaul. That statement is REALLY fucked up, dude. Putting the spot on the victim and not the offender... So I guess when we talk about gun victims, we should educate people on recognizing and avoiding the shootings, right? That's where we should put our efforts. And educating people to recognize drunks driving, so they can avoid them?. Putting the effort on recognizing, avoiding and handling the offender... not in trying to avoid him/her becoming one, or outing them before they repeat the crime or when they do it. And sexual abuse/harassment won't go away because we are human beings: people with any sort of power (physical, social, etc.) tend to use it to take advantage of others for their own benefit. Not because of fucking social media... I really hope you are trolling or something, because jesus christ if that's not the case... Get your shit together...
You are greatly over-reacting to that statement. I will try to explain better what the poster means:
Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
First off:
1. I'm confident that the poster understands their are times where the victim is physically overwhelmed by the other person and has no choice in whatever goes down.
2. This is not a gun victim where there is always a chance of imminent death.
The post is trying to say in situations like "A person cornered me in a club and started rubbing themselves on me. I felt so scared that I let the person continue until they we bored/finished and left me there".
There is quality education that can be done to help avoid, prevent, or escape that situation. In that situation, the victim is not powerless and without options. With training we can empower the victim.
I am in no way the qualified person to educate anyone on the ways to handle yourself, but I've always had my own checklist to help me stay out of trouble and I'm cautious even as a 6'3 230lb male. This is specific to the scenario I put above.
1. Go out with others
2. Make sure you and the others check in with each other periodically
3. Stay in public spots where you can scream and yell for help
4. Bring mace
The above are all preventative measures that help you avoid situations that could happen.
5. Call 911 immediately if no one is there to help you
6. etc.
There are obviously an infinite number of scenarios like the ones where someone drunk crawls into your bed. If that makes you uncomfortable, hopefully you can be educated how to calmly remove that person and if not, immediately find someone for help. But the whole point is, how can you know how to handle this without real life experience or elders taking the time to teach you how to handle the world as best as possible.
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On June 24 2020 23:16 farvacola wrote:
Great post, WarSame, it's really nice to see that folks are taking the lessons from situations like that of Brock Turner and putting them into action.
Overall this thread is going better than I would have expected.
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On June 24 2020 23:03 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 22:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 22:46 Nebuchad wrote:
Ultimately this is another humanity vs me discussion. Starting to believe a lot of political debates contain that distinction.
It's pretty obvious that victims speaking out is better for humanity in general than a culture of sweeping all of the accusations under the rug to maintain appearances, even if it entails a few false accusations sometimes. Sexual harassment is, to use a technical term, bad.
But in this case if we look at it from the "I" perspective rather than the human perspective, the answer isn't as clear. As a gamer, male, kind of socially awkward, I am much more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than I am to be at the receiving end of it. Both are rarely going to happen, but one is like 2-10% (depending on how much I hate the womenz) and the other is like 0,1%. So because I don't have a lot of empathy, it's much easier for me to put myself in the place of the accuser than in the place of the victim, and I'm much more concerned with the former being treated fairly than the latter. This is the feeling i get from the discussion. Its not misogynistic in intent but it is in its effect. At some point people lose the benefit of the doubt regarding their lack of intent, I'd argue it takes too long for some. Misogyny implies hate. I think much of the pushback against speaking out comes more from fear or self interest or.... just a perspective issue like Nebuchad says. It took me years and some irl experience (not me, a friend) for me to change my views on this. I'm not yelling at people because I know exactly why they think what they think, and although from our perspective rn it feels disingenuous or even like fake concern, that's not how it felt to me a couple of years ago and I doubt that is how people are thinking about it now. There's genuine concern here for the victims of false accusations, I just think it is a case of misplaced priorities because of the failure to understand the perspective of the victims, and how suggesting these women don't speak out is literally doing the abusers job for them all over again and creating further victims. We're being asked to choose the lesser of two evils and people coming down on the side of 'victims should shut up unless they have evidence' are choosing the wrong side. In the meantime, this is one of those cases where WE can do something. We are the fans, we can demand change within the industry if change is needed (that's why I asked for people to share as much as possible their experience of how pro gaming as a whole deals with this stuff). What if every time someone subscribes to a twitch.tv channel they do so with the message IMPROVE SEXUAL HARASSMENT SUPPORT IN THE GAMING SCENE? or something catchier like a hashtag or something. These reckonings require action (i mean reform), and I would be extremely surprised if there isn't some action that could be taken immediately if the pressure was there.
I understand having that initial feeling, but once someone comes to a thread like this and are shown their error (probably not their first time either) the refusal to accept that is intentional and misogynist imo. It's not necessarily a result of that specific individual intentionally maintaining and perpetuating their own misogynistic views, but they are definitely intentionally not integrating and reconciling the information. When they do, like you, their views change.
Since BLM has come up several times, the parallel is those worried about the good cops and protesters not following the legal channels for change. You only get to be considered understandably ignorant for so long before your "all/blue lives matter" responses and calls for "civility" from the protesters are recognized for what they are. Or in this case concern about the falsely accused and calls for evidence/cordiality in speaking up.
It's not a coincidence contempt for BLM and concern for the targets of these allegations of harm and abuse overlap in so many people.
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https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9mbd
This is a Team Liquid legend, Hotbid talking about his assault.While its not related to DOTA or SC2 I'm posting this here since I think its super important for men to talk about this too and come forward.
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On June 24 2020 22:38 FuzzyJAM wrote:
Nobody is convicting anyone.
You know what? I think people on the internet tend to discuss and post about only those things they disagree with. Probably a lot of people here agree on 'most' of the stuff other people post but they will point out the only thing they disagree with in the response. It's like a vicious circle of disagreement.
I love you all, even if I disagree with a little thing you said.
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On June 24 2020 23:08 Elmonti wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
Hi there! I am gonna fix you shitty comparison: - Both of you know each other, or have worked together a bunch of times. - He is known to have a creepy behaviour towards people of your gender. - There have been previous allegations of that sort towards him. - A really big company refuses to work with him or stopped to do that. - You are able to give precise information about that "rape" encounter, and you have people who can corroborate the context (they saw you together before, they know both of you were at the same place, they know he behaves like that often, etc.). - After you say this, 3 more people of your gender come forward and tell similar stories. All of them can give that precise information. Ok, then it can be compared to the RAPiD situation. You are welcome.
Okay I wasn't aware of those "previous allegations" but I will reserve judgement until I have heard his side of the story.
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On June 24 2020 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:
Overall this thread is going better than I would have expected.
Really, because there's a ton of fallacies going back and forth, some misogynism some misandrism and even the moderators are joining in on the shitposting. There's so many heated and condescending posts and seemingly a competition for who's the most righteous and whatnot. Some have posted and kept their heads cool but those have gone largely ignored in the sea of flames. This thread is horrible.
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On June 24 2020 23:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:08 Elmonti wrote:On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
Hi there! I am gonna fix you shitty comparison: - Both of you know each other, or have worked together a bunch of times. - He is known to have a creepy behaviour towards people of your gender. - There have been previous allegations of that sort towards him. - A really big company refuses to work with him or stopped to do that. - You are able to give precise information about that "rape" encounter, and you have people who can corroborate the context (they saw you together before, they know both of you were at the same place, they know he behaves like that often, etc.). - After you say this, 3 more people of your gender come forward and tell similar stories. All of them can give that precise information. Ok, then it can be compared to the RAPiD situation. You are welcome. Okay I wasn't aware of those "previous allegations" but I will reserve judgement until I have heard his side of the story.
Dude, isn't the fact that he hasn't made his side of the story enough of an indicator for you? Or do you really want his 26cm that much?
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On June 24 2020 23:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:08 Elmonti wrote:On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
Hi there! I am gonna fix you shitty comparison: - Both of you know each other, or have worked together a bunch of times. - He is known to have a creepy behaviour towards people of your gender. - There have been previous allegations of that sort towards him. - A really big company refuses to work with him or stopped to do that. - You are able to give precise information about that "rape" encounter, and you have people who can corroborate the context (they saw you together before, they know both of you were at the same place, they know he behaves like that often, etc.). - After you say this, 3 more people of your gender come forward and tell similar stories. All of them can give that precise information. Ok, then it can be compared to the RAPiD situation. You are welcome. Okay I wasn't aware of those "previous allegations" but I will reserve judgement until I have heard his side of the story.
Here are some of the previous allegations:
On June 24 2020 22:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On June 24 2020 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? Yes I've read the multiple allegations made by multiple women over the years, against Rapid. They corroborate his inappropriate behavior. As for your insistence on specifically needing to see text, or about the other minor topics we've covered (e.g., attention-seeking behavior), I think EsportsJohn's comment answers them very well. There are ever-shifting goalposts when it comes to burden of proof, people will continue to make excuses if they really want to, and the people coming forward are merely hoping that they themselves don't get pitchforked for speaking out. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. ..."In a criminal trial." Sorry my ignorance but u are saying over th years? I didnt know this.do u mind giving some links? I HONESTLY didnt know about it.and i thought it all came with the recent twitch movement. He's been outed for being unprofessional since at least 2014 ( https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 ) although that specific example is more about him being a pain in the neck, rather than explicitly sexual. An account back in 2015 that's a sexual situation ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kmn ) 2018 was when Deity's sexual situation happened ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kev ) Another corroborative account about inappropriate conduct (not sure what the dates are) ( https://twitter.com/theresagaffney/status/1275471824839684096?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/560609-sexual-harassment-abuse-in-starcraft-2 ) I'm not saying Rapid should go to jail, but it's pretty clear, based on his inappropriate non-sexual and sexual behavior towards certain people (especially women), that he shouldn't be a part of the community.
Also, what do you expect to hear from "his side of the story"?
-If he admits to doing these things, then fine, we can easily confirm that they're true... but most people wouldn't.
-If he denies doing these things, then what happens? You still don't believe the self-proclaimed victims?
-If he stays silent, then what happens? You still don't believe the self-proclaimed victims?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 24 2020 23:18 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:01 Elmonti wrote:On June 24 2020 22:51 True_Spike wrote:On June 24 2020 22:23 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike. And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Sexual abuse / harassment won't go away because we blindly trust every person who posts something on social media. Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Making sure they know their rights, know when and how to prosecute offenders is important, because this way the actual abusers face the consequences of their actions, land behind bars or at the very least are prosecuted (and the more cases there are the more attention they will get as part of a systemic issue). It doesn't mean no other actions should be taken to make people as safe as possible - everywhere, everyone, under all circumstances. If people in the US are sentenced based on testimony of a single person and nothing else then I'd say maybe it's not the best judiciary system in the world and perhaps needs an overhaul. That statement is REALLY fucked up, dude. Putting the spot on the victim and not the offender... So I guess when we talk about gun victims, we should educate people on recognizing and avoiding the shootings, right? That's where we should put our efforts. And educating people to recognize drunks driving, so they can avoid them?. Putting the effort on recognizing, avoiding and handling the offender... not in trying to avoid him/her becoming one, or outing them before they repeat the crime or when they do it. And sexual abuse/harassment won't go away because we are human beings: people with any sort of power (physical, social, etc.) tend to use it to take advantage of others for their own benefit. Not because of fucking social media... I really hope you are trolling or something, because jesus christ if that's not the case... Get your shit together... You are greatly over-reacting to that statement. I will try to explain better what the poster means: Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
First off: 1. I'm confident that the poster understands their are times where the victim is physically overwhelmed by the other person and has no choice in whatever goes down. 2. This is not a gun victim where there is always a chance of imminent death. The post is trying to say in situations like "A person cornered me in a club and started rubbing themselves on me. I felt so scared that I let the person continue until they we bored/finished and left me there". There is quality education that can be done to help avoid, prevent, or escape that situation. In that situation, the victim is not powerless and without options. With training we can empower the victim. I am in no way the qualified person to educate anyone on the ways to handle yourself, but I've always had my own checklist to help me stay out of trouble and I'm cautious even as a 6'3 230lb male. This is specific to the scenario I put above. 1. Go out with others 2. Make sure you and the others check in with each other periodically 3. Stay in public spots where you can scream and yell for help 4. Bring mace The above are all preventative measures that help you avoid situations that could happen. 5. Call 911 immediately if no one is there to help you 6. etc. There are obviously an infinite number of scenarios like the ones where someone drunk crawls into your bed. If that makes you uncomfortable, hopefully you can be educated how to calmly remove that person and if not, immediately find someone for help. But the whole point is, how can you know how to handle this without real life experience or elders taking the time to teach you how to handle the world as best as possible.
I'm really disappointed by this response, BD. Victims of rape are scarred for life and many end up dead due to depression and suicide; our response shouldn't be to educate them on how to minimize the scarring but to put barriers in place to prevent these things from happening in the first place.
Hannah Gadsby says, "We are not preparing our children..." in her newest show, Douglass, in reference to how we raise boys and girls in the social norm. Society often tells girls that they need to be careful, that they need to avoid dressing provocatively, that they need to follow guidelines for safety, whereas we generally just go, "oh welp, boys will be boys!" when we (don't) educate our boys. We should not be asking ourselves why so many women end up putting themselves in dangerous situations and instead be asking ourselves why those dangerous situations exist in the first place. If testosterone is a precursor to rape, then all men would be rapists. But it's not because rape is not a biological need, it's a learned behavior which has roots in misogyny and a disregard for other people's feelings. We breed men to be sociopathic sex machines and then blame women for it, and that's not okay.
Men have the privilege, men have the power (socially, economically, and physically). The ball is in their court to act in good faith, educate themselves, make others feel comfortable, and ask for consent. Suggesting that we educate women when we already do is redundant and ignores the fact that the onus is on men to provide safe environments for women to not get raped in.
(BTW, I just want to make it clear to everyone that I am advocating specifically for women abused by men because it is by far the most common scenario and because there is an inherent power dynamic that dominates that relationship. Abuse and other sexual misconduct occurs between all genders and even sometimes with women taking advantage of men and is just as reprehensible. Like I said, this isn't a hormone thing, it's a learned behavior, and it's inexcuseable no matter who it is.)
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On June 24 2020 23:18 BisuDagger wrote:
Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Or, you know, we could educate people not to abuse other people. Putting the blame and "lack of education" on the victim of abuse is classic victim blaming, and it's really shitty to do. That is the only input I will have on the subject.
These stories are shocking and hard to believe, but this is a time to support victims and cut ties with people who we were led to believe were "good" and "likeable". I don't want this scene to be involved with people that are malicious and as disgusting as these posts lead us to believe they are, and seeing Zzzero immediately cut ties with Rapid shows me that he knows how important something like this is.
I hope that this little "movement" really helps shape the way StarCraft players, coaches, casters, etc treat one another and I hope we come out the other side more supportive and caring for each other.
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On June 24 2020 23:14 WarSame wrote:
It's interesting to see a bunch of straight white men(of which I am one) exhalting the benefits of the court system which has been designed to work primarily for the rich powerful white men for a long time now. Do you think you would be willing to go through the court system to see this through?
Look at Brock Turner. Literally a rapist and he gets 6 months incarceration because he "has a future" a.k.a is rich powerful(by proxy) and white.
ffs, why bring race into this? Look at O. J. Simpson. Literally a murderer and a psychopath, gets no sentence at all because he is rich, powerful and white. Wait...
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On June 24 2020 23:20 Kerotan wrote:https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9mbdThis is a Team Liquid legend, Hotbid talking about his assault.While its not related to DOTA or SC2 I'm posting this here since I think its super important for men to talk about this too and come forward.
Damn. It's definitely important for men to come forward too; there is such a ridiculous stigma against men having emotions or showing any sort of weakness or fragility or victimhood. Feeling forced to keep that inside can be so damaging x.x
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Bisutopia19144 Posts
On June 24 2020 23:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:28 Charoisaur wrote:On June 24 2020 23:08 Elmonti wrote:On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
Hi there! I am gonna fix you shitty comparison: - Both of you know each other, or have worked together a bunch of times. - He is known to have a creepy behaviour towards people of your gender. - There have been previous allegations of that sort towards him. - A really big company refuses to work with him or stopped to do that. - You are able to give precise information about that "rape" encounter, and you have people who can corroborate the context (they saw you together before, they know both of you were at the same place, they know he behaves like that often, etc.). - After you say this, 3 more people of your gender come forward and tell similar stories. All of them can give that precise information. Ok, then it can be compared to the RAPiD situation. You are welcome. Okay I wasn't aware of those "previous allegations" but I will reserve judgement until I have heard his side of the story. Here are some of the previous allegations: Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 22:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On June 24 2020 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? Yes I've read the multiple allegations made by multiple women over the years, against Rapid. They corroborate his inappropriate behavior. As for your insistence on specifically needing to see text, or about the other minor topics we've covered (e.g., attention-seeking behavior), I think EsportsJohn's comment answers them very well. There are ever-shifting goalposts when it comes to burden of proof, people will continue to make excuses if they really want to, and the people coming forward are merely hoping that they themselves don't get pitchforked for speaking out. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. ..."In a criminal trial." Sorry my ignorance but u are saying over th years? I didnt know this.do u mind giving some links? I HONESTLY didnt know about it.and i thought it all came with the recent twitch movement. He's been outed for being unprofessional since at least 2014 ( https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 ) although that specific example is more about him being a pain in the neck, rather than explicitly sexual. An account back in 2015 that's a sexual situation ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kmn ) 2018 was when Deity's sexual situation happened ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kev ) Another corroborative account about inappropriate conduct (not sure what the dates are) ( https://twitter.com/theresagaffney/status/1275471824839684096?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/560609-sexual-harassment-abuse-in-starcraft-2 ) I'm not saying Rapid should go to jail, but it's pretty clear, based on his inappropriate non-sexual and sexual behavior towards certain people (especially women), that he shouldn't be a part of the community. Also, what do you expect to hear from "his side of the story"? -If he admits to doing these things, then fine, we can easily confirm that they're true... but most people wouldn't. -If he denies doing these things, then what happens? You still don't believe the self-proclaimed victims? -If he stays silent, then what happens? You still don't believe the self-proclaimed victims?
I think the more important thing is what do the victims want from the people they have named publicly so that they can feel a sense of closure. What result will help them find a way to move on? I have no idea what the answer is here and I think it is different for every situation. I honestly don't know what a public forum can do to help these victims versus getting a group of victims together to either talk to the person personally or talk to sponsors and organizer. If the goal was to get a discussion going so we can better understand personal space then that's great, but if there is more to it then that then I think we need the help of the victims to understand what we are supposed to do with this information.
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Bisutopia19144 Posts
On June 24 2020 23:38 zelderan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:18 BisuDagger wrote:
Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Or, you know, we could educate people not to abuse other people. Putting the blame and "lack of education" on the victim of abuse is classic victim blaming, and it's really shitty to do. That is the only input I will have on the subject. These stories are shocking and hard to believe, but this is a time to support victims and cut ties with people who we were led to believe were "good" and "likeable". I don't want this scene to be involved with people that are malicious and as disgusting as these posts lead us to believe they are, and seeing Zzzero immediately cut ties with Rapid shows me that he knows how important something like this is. I hope that this little "movement" really helps shape the way StarCraft players, coaches, casters, etc treat one another and I hope we come out the other side more supportive and caring for each other.
Why does it have to be either/or? I was defending the poster because I thought the person responded very aggressively and unfairly. I 100% think that children need to be educated better on respecting others and have huge opinions on the lack of good parenting in my country. I agree with you, I just wasn't posting on that particular topic.
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On June 24 2020 23:40 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 23:28 Charoisaur wrote:On June 24 2020 23:08 Elmonti wrote:On June 24 2020 22:54 Charoisaur wrote:
@EsportsJohn
So if I say right now "EsportsJohn raped me" it would be ok for people to treat you like a convicted rapist? Only you and I would know it's a lie, for the other people it would be just as likely that it's true as it is currently with the Rapid situation.
Hi there! I am gonna fix you shitty comparison: - Both of you know each other, or have worked together a bunch of times. - He is known to have a creepy behaviour towards people of your gender. - There have been previous allegations of that sort towards him. - A really big company refuses to work with him or stopped to do that. - You are able to give precise information about that "rape" encounter, and you have people who can corroborate the context (they saw you together before, they know both of you were at the same place, they know he behaves like that often, etc.). - After you say this, 3 more people of your gender come forward and tell similar stories. All of them can give that precise information. Ok, then it can be compared to the RAPiD situation. You are welcome. Okay I wasn't aware of those "previous allegations" but I will reserve judgement until I have heard his side of the story. Here are some of the previous allegations: On June 24 2020 22:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 22:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On June 24 2020 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? Yes I've read the multiple allegations made by multiple women over the years, against Rapid. They corroborate his inappropriate behavior. As for your insistence on specifically needing to see text, or about the other minor topics we've covered (e.g., attention-seeking behavior), I think EsportsJohn's comment answers them very well. There are ever-shifting goalposts when it comes to burden of proof, people will continue to make excuses if they really want to, and the people coming forward are merely hoping that they themselves don't get pitchforked for speaking out. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. ..."In a criminal trial." Sorry my ignorance but u are saying over th years? I didnt know this.do u mind giving some links? I HONESTLY didnt know about it.and i thought it all came with the recent twitch movement. He's been outed for being unprofessional since at least 2014 ( https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 ) although that specific example is more about him being a pain in the neck, rather than explicitly sexual. An account back in 2015 that's a sexual situation ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kmn ) 2018 was when Deity's sexual situation happened ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kev ) Another corroborative account about inappropriate conduct (not sure what the dates are) ( https://twitter.com/theresagaffney/status/1275471824839684096?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/560609-sexual-harassment-abuse-in-starcraft-2 ) I'm not saying Rapid should go to jail, but it's pretty clear, based on his inappropriate non-sexual and sexual behavior towards certain people (especially women), that he shouldn't be a part of the community. Also, what do you expect to hear from "his side of the story"? -If he admits to doing these things, then fine, we can easily confirm that they're true... but most people wouldn't. -If he denies doing these things, then what happens? You still don't believe the self-proclaimed victims? -If he stays silent, then what happens? You still don't believe the self-proclaimed victims? I think the more important thing is what do the victims want from the people they have named publicly so that they can feel a sense of closure. What result will help them find a way to move on? I have no idea what the answer is here and I think it is different for every situation. I honestly don't know what a public forum can do to help these victims versus getting a group of victims together to either talk to the person personally or talk to sponsors and organizer. If the goal was to get a discussion going so we can better understand personal space then that's great, but if there is more to it then that then I think we need the help of the victims to understand what we are supposed to do with this information.
I would think that step one of what they all want would be to be believed, so that others could feel more comfortable with coming forward in the future and that these problems can be addressed and not ignored. Simple validation and acknowledgment go a long, long, long way. As far as whether or not Rapid (or any other abuser) receives serious consequences likely lies at the feet of the community and those who can choose to work with (or not work with) them. And that's a question of whether or not we're a community that's actually unified against abuse.
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Also, it's super funny how all these "no proofs, so shut up" guys only talk about the RAPiD case... not a single word about that OG coach TLO or the other guy are talking about, with the same amount of physical proofs... But hey, they are men and they are nice people, we do know them, so I guess they DO tell the truth.
I guess they dont want any attention, unlike the 3 girls accusing Reid...
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Hi guys. For the people treating this thread as high school debate team practice by shouting contrarian points into people's faces just to be cool and edgy, don't bother. I'm just here to make one post and disappear into the sunset, do with it what you will. Side note, I've also not read the last 3 pages because it's just become a repeat, so if I missed something, sorry.
I am profoundly disappointed with the reaction by the majority of the community here on TL. It's incredible to me how so many of you have decided to willfully ignore so many aspects of this and call people attention seekers. If you are doing this, especially about the women, you are misogynists. You may not realize it, and you may not intend to be, but you are misogynists. Somebody earlier made a GREAT fucking point. We have a dozen people in this thread screaming from the rooftops about the Rapid accusations and how THERE IS NO PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF, and yet you have no issue with Dario/Top's accusations? Let's break it down:
Rapid has three accusers that I have seen. Gon has two accusers that I have seen. The amount of evidence presented against both is equal. And all of you are dogpiling onto the one who is being accused by women, and not the one accused by men. I wonder why.
I understand how somebody who is uneducated can default to the "where is the proof, innocent until proven guilty" mindset, but it really shouldn't take more than five minutes of education to understand why that isn't a very reasonable stance to have on this issue. YES men are falsly accused sometimes, but it is far, far less common. I find it fucking hilarious that someone earlier in this thread was implying that since there are no statistics on it, how can we possibly know if it's more or less common? Come on, you don't actually believe that. I have no statistical evidence that the majority of you in this thread do not in fact suck horse dicks, so for all we know, the majority of you may well be deepthroating some equine dong on your weekends. There's no statistics on it so how can we know?
People have mostly ignored my post here because I didn't name names, making it okay. I want to be clear in saying that the guy in my story is no longer in the scene. IF HE WAS, I would have named names despite having no proof because, as has been mentioned once or twice here, this is not solely about justice, this is also about protecting potential future victims. If I had the choice to take a couple dozen internet assholes harassing me in exchange for making members of the community safer on the whole, that's a shit situation but yeah I'd take it. The same is true for these women. Addressing the argument of "attention seeking," that implies that the women have something to gain from making this post, so let's address that.
Theresa has been working in esports for years and is well regarded. She does not need attention. Her corroborating these stories does NOTHING for her except exposes her to potential negatives. She is not an aspiring streamer, nor would some small amount of Twitter clout do anything for her.
Ykie I do not know personally, but she's an occasional caster for IeSF, an organization where Rapid is a staple caster. As somebody who has plenty of casting experience, if an organization's main caster says they won't work with X person, that person won't be hired. As a broadcasting company, you don't want to pair two people who have bad chemistry, so this hiring decision makes sense. So yes, Rapid does have a power discrepancy here as he is likely capable of harming her career prospects. Therefore, her coming forward here also has the potential to harm career prospects should she ever want to cast with IeSF again. She is not a streamer, so here again I don't see what some extra followers actually does for her. She does not benefit from this "attention seeking."
I do not know Naomi personally, but she has now been corroborated by two people who have no connection to her and have nothing to gain by coming forward. This should be more than enough to tentatively believe her until Rapid comes out with a response at the very least.
People coming forward is incredibly important for multiple reasons. Protecting potential future victims is a major consideration, but also to pain a larger picture of the harassment and abuse in the scene so that we can work, as a collective, to better our space. There are a dozen stories that I know of out there from the SC2 community that still have not been told. People coming forward is a very important first step in helping victims feel comfortable in stepping forward.
I know that this has been a rambly, not too well put together post, and I know that some of you are set in your minds, but I implore you to please consider this:
You don't have to harass the accused. Nobody is pushing for that. You don't even have to be clamoring for consequences. All that you need to do is be open minded, listen, and be introspective. There is a big difference between jumping on the hate train and thinking "Damn, I'm sorry that person feels that way." Just understand that when you immediately jump to attacking the act of speaking out, you are part of the problem.
And as a final addendum: Even some of you who haven't outright specified it, be honest with yourselves. Your expectation is forensic evidence, which even in the case of full on actual rape is not guaranteed to exist, but especially with some of the less extreme cases. Let's take the Eleine story, what evidence do you actually expect her to have? A guy followed her back to her hotel, attempted but failed to rape her, and then left. Does it make it okay just because he didn't actually succeed in raping her and thus leave forensic evidence? Ask yourself that, and reflect on whether that is, in fact, the fair standard you believe it to be.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk, support victims, and for the depressingly huge number of people in this thread who have contributed posts that frankly disgust me, fucking do better.
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EPT
