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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
On September 24 2015 07:03 NKexquisite wrote: I don't think there is anything wrong with the current widow mine. If you go straight widow mine drop, you rarely get more than 1-2 workers vs anyone above like platinum league. not even close ask SoS or Dear how they feel about them. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
On September 24 2015 11:28 Ignorant prodigy wrote: not even close ask SoS or Dear how they feel about them. Ah yes, sOs who just all-killed KT while having a widow mine in his natural and main bases... | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On September 24 2015 06:09 DinoMight wrote: Just make it so that they can only hit shit that is in their range as opposed to being able to target units infinitely far away as long it locks on. This is a result of how they decided to animate it, not fundamental to how the unit works. It only fires at things in range, the projectile just has to travel. Would you prefer the shot to be instant damage? | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
On September 24 2015 12:02 TheWinks wrote: This is a result of how they decided to animate it, not fundamental to how the unit works. It only fires at things in range, the projectile just has to travel. Would you prefer the shot to be instant damage? I don't think that is entirely true. Where a unit is standing when the mine shot explodes determines where the splash damage is applied. If it were only a matter of animation, you could see a situation where the targeted unit has moved far away from where the damage supposedly occurred, and it would die along with stationary units that are standing in the original location. Instead the damage is always dealt where the unit ended up moving to by the time the explosion happens. I don't really like the proposed change of not allowing the mine to hit things that move away from it. I think that a unit should be hit once it has been locked on to. I'm actually getting curious about the SC2 map editor now, because I want to try out some of these things for myself. | ||
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halfaspider
United States31 Posts
Unless they already did get rid of it and I'm a dummy. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On September 24 2015 12:20 alexanderzero wrote: I don't think that is entirely true. Where a unit is standing when the mine shot explodes determines where the splash damage is applied. If it were only a matter of animation, you could see a situation where the targeted unit has moved far away from where the damage supposedly occurred, and it would die along with stationary units that are standing in the original location. Instead the damage is always dealt where the unit ended up moving to by the time the explosion happens. I don't really like the proposed change of not allowing the mine to hit things that move away from it. I think that a unit should be hit once it has been locked on to. I'm actually getting curious about the SC2 map editor now, because I want to try out some of these things for myself. The actual shot happens while things are in the circle. It's like a stalker shooting at a ling on the edge of its range. The shot is still going to connect regardless of the distance outside the stalkers range the ling runs after the shot occurs. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On September 24 2015 14:53 Scrubwave wrote: Before you start your "balancing" it's a good idea to provide solid arguments why something needs balancing. I don't know if it is a good argument, since we should not compare different races, but it is lower tech than the disrupter, costs 1/6 of the gas (used to be 1/12), can be reactored, is lower tech, does more dmg to protoss with shields, can fire while invisible, does not have to be microed once in place -> hence "feels" unfair. The disruptor is a shit unit, because if you don't look for 2 seconds your army goes boom. I am glad they fixed the scan range of stalkers. Still, widowmines are a huge random factor in the game, require enormous attention and micro from only one player -> makes both units very frustrating to play against. They require a very specific reaction and have too big of an influence on the game (comparable with a late game spellcaster(though those require knowledge and micro on both sides)) I wouldn't mind a redisign in the direction of making them 1 supply, a little cheaper, and not one-shoting workers, or single target units as suggested in this thread. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3177 Posts
The oracle functions a little differently – if you didn't know an oracle was coming and didn't plan for it, there's no way to negate it with exceptional play. In fact, defending oracles isn't particularly difficult to execute – it's just strategically difficult. The oracle takes the full range of possible Terran openings and reduces them to the few that can hold off an oracle. That means that strategic complexity on the Terran's side is greatly reduced, without the Protoss ever needing to bother building an oracle, but otherwise execution on both sides is fairly straight-forward. Isn't the former preferable to the latter? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12125 Posts
And because this is happening to the best pros too i think it's not that unreasonable request to change the WM too. Edit> On the pro level even the probe pull is enough damage if you don't kill the ferrari-vac ,-) Someone computed that for hellbat drops(the old one) - the best damage you can get is to drop hellbats and ignore them! Even if you don't kill any probes the probe pull itself is big enough damage. | ||
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
On September 24 2015 16:17 ChristianS wrote: I'm confused. You seem to think that the widow mine is more problematic than the oracle at the moment? The response to widow mine drops is just to play better – pull probes in time, and micro appropriately. That seems like kind of how you want interactions to work – one player does something, the other can negate it simply by playing well. The oracle functions a little differently – if you didn't know an oracle was coming and didn't plan for it, there's no way to negate it with exceptional play. In fact, defending oracles isn't particularly difficult to execute – it's just strategically difficult. The oracle takes the full range of possible Terran openings and reduces them to the few that can hold off an oracle. That means that strategic complexity on the Terran's side is greatly reduced, without the Protoss ever needing to bother building an oracle, but otherwise execution on both sides is fairly straight-forward. Isn't the former preferable to the latter? A Widow Mine can destroy a mineral a hell of a lot quicker than an Oracle. Widow Mines require detection, Oracles do not. Constantly pulling probes affects mining and thus the economy while T sits at home remaining unhindered + their mules. Plus unless you're playing really greedy, most T have enough marines out to deflect an oracle by the time it hits their base. Protoss looks away for a brief moment to do something elsewhere and a mine or two burrows in their mineral line? GG, whole mineral line dead in an instant. | ||
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Valyrian
41 Posts
This would make them an actual defensive tool and shut down both worker harass and burrowing them during engagements. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3177 Posts
On September 24 2015 16:39 KatatoniK wrote: A Widow Mine can destroy a mineral a hell of a lot quicker than an Oracle. Widow Mines require detection, Oracles do not. Constantly pulling probes affects mining and thus the economy while T sits at home remaining unhindered + their mules. Plus unless you're playing really greedy, most T have enough marines out to deflect an oracle by the time it hits their base. Protoss looks away for a brief moment to do something elsewhere and a mine or two burrows in their mineral line? GG, whole mineral line dead in an instant. It's not really about the rate of damage – obviously the widow mine does damage all in one hit, while the oracle does it over the course of several attacks, but you don't really care how fast the economic damage happens, you care how much damage it does and how easily you can stop it. I'd say it's far more common for a Terran to have inadequate marines to deal with an oracle than for a Protoss to not have detection to deal with mines. More significantly, even if the Protoss doesn't have detection quite ready yet, he can still deal with the mines reasonably as long as he doesn't lose his head. Whereas it doesn't matter if it's Maru or Uniden playing Terran, if he doesn't have 6 marines, a widow mine, or a turret when that oracle comes in he's dead. Of course Protoss players can protest that unlike oracles, widow mines can still do good damage even if the Protoss does have the right tech to defend. This, then, is the dynamic I was referring to: defending widow mines is a matter of good situational awareness and crisis management, where defending oracles is just a matter of picking a build that has adequate defense by that time, or at least being able to scout oracle and deviate to have the proper defense in time. I'd argue the former is interesting, strategical, skill-based, and promotes multi-tasking. The latter removes a lot of strategic diversity from the game and results in a lot of dumb games. “Games where I see an oracle just fly into a Terran base and kill 13 SCVs, I don’t rank as high quality. I rank them as garbage games that I won’t rewatch.” -Artosis | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On September 24 2015 17:33 ChristianS wrote: It's not really about the rate of damage – obviously the widow mine does damage all in one hit, while the oracle does it over the course of several attacks, but you don't really care how fast the economic damage happens, you care how much damage it does and how easily you can stop it. I'd say it's far more common for a Terran to have inadequate marines to deal with an oracle than for a Protoss to not have detection to deal with mines. More significantly, even if the Protoss doesn't have detection quite ready yet, he can still deal with the mines reasonably as long as he doesn't lose his head. Whereas it doesn't matter if it's Maru or Uniden playing Terran, if he doesn't have 6 marines, a widow mine, or a turret when that oracle comes in he's dead. Of course Protoss players can protest that unlike oracles, widow mines can still do good damage even if the Protoss does have the right tech to defend. This, then, is the dynamic I was referring to: defending widow mines is a matter of good situational awareness and crisis management, where defending oracles is just a matter of picking a build that has adequate defense by that time, or at least being able to scout oracle and deviate to have the proper defense in time. I'd argue the former is interesting, strategical, skill-based, and promotes multi-tasking. The latter removes a lot of strategic diversity from the game and results in a lot of dumb games. “Games where I see an oracle just fly into a Terran base and kill 13 SCVs, I don’t rank as high quality. I rank them as garbage games that I won’t rewatch.” -Artosis The Oracle is terrible designed aswell. Here is the thing though, once you burrow widowmines as a terran, you are done. You go home and macro, protoss has to pull probes in a certain rythem on multiple locations without terran even looking. Oracles you have to controll, you have to decide when to spend their energy on their attack, you have to doge and engage marines from the correct angle, you have to pay attention to it, both sides have to. And protoss builds are quite influenced by the single most dominant, best, easiest to execute, minimal risk strategy that every terran does in every game ever. This thread we dedicate to whining about the widow mine, not that we don't whine about the oracle aswell, but lets focus on screwing terran before lotv is out ;D | ||
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ETisME
12198 Posts
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90ti
United States100 Posts
On September 24 2015 19:26 ETisME wrote: I think the biggest issue is that it gives a visual indicator to which unit is being targeted but then it doesn't really offer room for counter micro. for terrans to have an idea how annoying it is, picture if psi storm was instant when it hit marines/marauders lol i think they should visible for several seconds at least after firing. | ||
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wjat
385 Posts
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wjat
385 Posts
On September 24 2015 19:48 90ti wrote: for terrans to have an idea how annoying it is, picture if psi storm was instant when it hit marines/marauders lol i think they should visible for several seconds at least after firing. Because Psi storm don't instant hit ? So leave psi storm untouched and nerf WM? | ||
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ChristianS
United States3177 Posts
On September 24 2015 19:10 HaRuHi wrote: The Oracle is terrible designed aswell. Here is the thing though, once you burrow widowmines as a terran, you are done. You go home and macro, protoss has to pull probes in a certain rythem on multiple locations without terran even looking. Oracles you have to controll, you have to decide when to spend their energy on their attack, you have to doge and engage marines from the correct angle, you have to pay attention to it, both sides have to. And protoss builds are quite influenced by the single most dominant, best, easiest to execute, minimal risk strategy that every terran does in every game ever. This thread we dedicate to whining about the widow mine, not that we don't whine about the oracle aswell, but lets focus on screwing terran before lotv is out ;D I mean Terran can look away, but he's also rewarded for sticking around. Manually retargeting the mines makes good hits much more likely to land, and if you pay attention you can even try to pick mine up after it shoots. Also significant, and unlike oracles, is that mines pretty rarely do game-ending damage, and when they do it's usually pretty easy to point to an execution error on the Protoss's part. When a Terran loses to oracles, it's usually just a build order loss. If this is the thread for discussing whether widow mine drops are overpowered or badly designed, that's fine, but OP seemed to be suggesting that both oracle and widow mine drops are problematic, but widow mines are significantly more so. On September 24 2015 19:26 ETisME wrote: I think the biggest issue is that it gives a visual indicator to which unit is being targeted but then it doesn't really offer room for counter micro. Wouldn't the counter micro be isolating the targeted unit? That seems like pretty good counter micro to me. | ||
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