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I open up this thread to talk about zerg harass.
My own opinin is that zerg harass is bad.
If you look of the zerg harass unites you can see its not enough.
Zergling-very good unit for harass but can not rly be core harass unit like zelots since it needs too big number so i only concider it a good harass unit on the early game espaclly on zvz but with the drops nerf it will be hard
drops-zerg got a drop buff on lotv which is good but the problem with zerg drops it that unlike terran or protoss where you will only need a small amount of unites to use drop harass for zerg 2 roaches and 4 zergling cant really harass espaclly on the late game
muta-Good harass unit but its got his problems.First of all muta got lots of counters on the game and you need to have big invesment in order to make use of it but on the later stages of the game where you fight aginst liberaors or too much of ground focres they cant help alot so going muta is a very risky move
sh-the only unit that zerg has that is concidered pure harass unit.Yea they are strong but their attack are every 60 second and the thing that make it impossible for me to use sh is that they need to come on numbers and their cost is very high for the mid game unlike ohter races harass unites
roach/infesotor burrow-the only good use of it is zvz since on other matchs they are to much easy defended
thats all the zerg real harass options now another thing i want to talk about is defending harass as zerg.Protoss and terran got way more harass option than zerg but thats not mean its a bad thing but defending harass as zerg is very hard.
First of off unlike protoss zerg base defends dont shot both air and ground.
Second zerg dont got phton overcharge
and the most obvious thing is that if someone try to harass protoss they just warp in on 2 second some zelots to hold of the harass or stalkers if its mutas
so defending harass as protoss is the easiest
For terran its harder but still lets remember that liberators and tanks provide good defendse for close bases.Also unlike other races terran can heal their structrues and in my option thats the thing which make sh so usless on zvt.Also planatry is a very strong tool for defending
However when you are playing zerg even few marines and murders or few zelots can cause way to much damage for the base defense to help.For zerg you must always leave some unites behind to defend just in case a medivac or a warp prism will come so this is way more harder for them
To conclude i think zerg need a harass buff or easier way to defned all the bases where for other races its seems its easier on the current version of the beta
what do you think guys?
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Well you named quite a lot of nice harassment options. Your cons for them dont really apply to me, in my opinion with proper execution all of them work fine. And for the defense you got spores and spines which you can move around. These buy you enought time to pull around to defend, since zerg is more mobile with most compositions compared to the other races.
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On September 01 2015 19:19 misterxy1994 wrote:
Well you named quite a lot of nice harassment options. Your cons for them dont really apply to me, in my opinion with proper execution all of them work fine. And for the defense you got spores and spines which you can move around. These buy you enought time to pull around to defend, since zerg is more mobile with most compositions compared to the other races.
Yea i named alot but i wrote their main problems.Like sh is a good harass unit but you inviest too much for a little reward
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I don't think that Zerg harrass is too weak - properly used Mutas have great harrassment potential and the other options are strong as well.
You could argue however that Protoss/Terran harass options are too much to handle for most Zergs. Sieged tanks in medivacs, disruptor with huge pick up range, fast banshee and all that jazz, essentially everything air harrassment, is tough to deal with for zerg.
I've only started to get really into LotV again, so I'm merely diamond level, but I started to utilize hydralisks way more in ZvP and that seems to be going quite well for me. Lurkers are a strong defensive option and by laying down a spire once you can afford it you always have the option to transition into mutas.
In ZvT I do a similar thing, only the other way around. Ling/Bling/Muta with a hydralisk den once I can afford it so I have the option to transition into Lurkers to have a more reliable way to defend my bases in the late game.
So I can definitely see your point, however I don't agree with it completely on my level. I can't speak for higher/lower levels obviously.
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On September 01 2015 20:25 KeksX wrote:
I don't think that Zerg harrass is too weak - properly used Mutas have great harrassment potential and the other options are strong as well.
You could argue however that Protoss/Terran harass options are too much to handle for most Zergs. Sieged tanks in medivacs, disruptor with huge pick up range, fast banshee and all that jazz, essentially everything air harrassment, is tough to deal with for zerg.
I've only started to get really into LotV again, so I'm merely diamond level, but I started to utilize hydralisks way more in ZvP and that seems to be going quite well for me. Lurkers are a strong defensive option and by laying down a spire once you can afford it you always have the option to transition into mutas.
In ZvT I do a similar thing, only the other way around. Ling/Bling/Muta with a hydralisk den once I can afford it so I have the option to transition into Lurkers to have a more reliable way to defend my bases in the late game.
So I can definitely see your point, however I don't agree with it completely on my level. I can't speak for higher/lower levels obviously.
After reading what you said i think that the thing that make zerg harass so hard is the amount of money you have to invest on it like you cant drop 8 raoches on the main and hope for the doing big damage but on the ether hand droping 8 marines or even 8 zelots can do lot more damage so like i said harass cost too much for zerg and not always worth the cost while p/t can put small invesment on unites and will reward much of that
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If overlord drops would get a boost speed that would be a good harass option.
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I agree that defending harass as zerg can be very difficult, but consider the amount of map vision that we have compared to T or P. With good overlord spread and good creep spread, you can see a medivac / warp prism coming from a mile away. Keeping a single spore crawler by the common paths to a base could also deter attacks almost by themselves. If you have burrow, that can sometimes save your workers at the cost of your hatchery. I think its wise to keep a contingent of zerglings to defend with if your opponent is harassing a lot.
Also, don't forget about the nydus worm. I haven't used it at all really in lotv, but I've seen streams where people make good use of it. Sometimes if they react well and position troops to kill it when it finishes, you can start a second one in another base and get good use out of it still as their army will now be out of position
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Zerg harrass is fine, there's the early drop, and mutas are amazing zvp and zvz. Speedlings are awesome as well. Granted there's nothing quite like the oracle or widow mines or zealot and Marine mineral dumps but we do have superior map control to see these things coming.
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On September 01 2015 22:41 Little-Chimp wrote:
Zerg harrass is fine, there's the early drop, and mutas are amazing zvp and zvz. Speedlings are awesome as well. Granted there's nothing quite like the oracle or widow mines or zealot and Marine mineral dumps but we do have superior map control to see these things coming.
Like i said early drops are nerfed and muta is a big invesment for not a big reward most time also muta must be helping more to defend and fight on the current meta and have less time to do good harass
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mutas (which arent harrass, they are your main army that also can harrass but super huge investment nothing like 100 gas medivac with marines or single oracle) and ling runbys. thats it and only for zvz and zvp. in zvt basically there is no real harrass options at all.
nydus? ovidrop? burrowed roaches? burrowed infestors? corruptors (ROFL :-D)? well those would be all the options and all of them are really bad (ovidrop will even get nerfed...)
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I am a little on the fence whether you understand the difference between all in and harassment, especially judging by our recent games.
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The fact that you have to choose either drones or combat units makes Zerg early game harass feel very all-in. The other races can keep producing workers while they harass but Zerg has to decide to either focus on economy or attacking.
Later in the game Zerg has many, many tools to harass with. Mutas are incredibly strong.
I think it's perfectly fine for Zerg to be different in this way. Defend up to saturation then harass while taking more gas/teching. The races are inherently different and we cant expect them to be played the same way.
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A couple banelings in overlords can do pretty significant damage.
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On September 02 2015 04:03 Decendos wrote:
mutas (which arent harrass, they are your main army that also can harrass but super huge investment nothing like 100 gas medivac with marines or single oracle) and ling runbys. thats it and only for zvz and zvp. in zvt basically there is no real harrass options at all.
nydus? ovidrop? burrowed roaches? burrowed infestors? corruptors (ROFL :-D)? well those would be all the options and all of them are really bad (ovidrop will even get nerfed...)
I agree on most of the things you say.I also think that harass t is the hardest.I tried using sh and they did nothing since scv just heal the planetary or lift orbital and thats annoying
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On September 02 2015 04:33 DoubleReed wrote:
A couple banelings in overlords can do pretty significant damage.
Except they are nerfing overlord drops to lair for no reason.
If they give compensation like a speed buff they will be used, if not then will never see it again.
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If zerg was given a harass purposed unit, it would probably break the game when combined with the remax ability. Imagine zerg being able to pop 20 units like reapers or oracle mid game.
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drops-zerg got a drop buff on lotv which is good but the problem with zerg drops it that unlike terran or protoss where you will only need a small amount of unites to use drop harass for zerg 2 roaches and 4 zergling cant really harass espaclly on the late game
Agree, would like to see a big tier3-buff to overlord drops.
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Swarm Hosts are really good and not as investiment as Mutas, they are really good for that (only 5 can destroy an expa or kill all the workers) with flying Locust.
Lurker Drops as well... for T2 you will almost always get Ovi Speed...
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On September 02 2015 07:01 Sogetsu wrote:
Swarm Hosts are really good and not as investiment as Mutas, they are really good for that (only 5 can destroy an expa or kill all the workers) with flying Locust.
Lurker Drops as well... for T2 you will almost always get Ovi Speed...
In mid game and late game but earl pressure is so bad
Wall off is so BS
Overlord drop should be at Lair but with great speed, something to move fast and maybe double cargo since you need more units.
User was banned for this post.
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Upgraded zerglings kill a nexus so fast.
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EPT
