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I play Starcraft at school. We have this "club" type thing, it's really neat. Anyhow, I play lots of 1v1s on Battle.net with Terran and I'm really in to this pro thing, but at school our games usually consist of 4v4s on Hunters-Gamei. While these are very fun, the playing style of some of my friends is unusual from what I'm used to.
Building static defences like Bunkers and Photon Cannons without the anticipation of an attack isn't usually involved in the 1v1s I do: I only build them if I know it's coming, because I don't want to waste the resources on turrets I don't need. However, in 4v4s, it's hard to know when the attack is coming, because you can scout one person, but you can't scout four at the same time. I also get very caught up in confusion because my friends mostly turtle, and if one of them is Terran, it's very hard to break loaded Bunkers with Siege Tanks and Turrets that has been well fortified.
From what I've learned, 4v4s are very different than 1v1s or even 2v2s. Protoss aren't forced to tech to Core if they have a Terran opponent, they can Zealot rush and do just find with support from one of their three other allies. So teching with Terran is more difficult to do when you have four people that are going to rush you.
Also, in early game to late game, harassing is very difficult because most of my friends have built up considerable defences without the anticipation of attack. So muta harasses and mnm harasses almost never work because there are six friggin' sunkens or loads of turrets or cannons blocking the way to someone's base.
So what I need help with is simply knowing how to break it, and how to play on 4v4s. When someone has turtled, how can I harass them? And if this turtle includes Siege Tanks, how can I break it? Also, how can I scout each of my opponent's effectively? Is there a good method without needing to always rely on my allies? Any comments would be appreciated.
On a smaller note, is a bionic build with Terran ever useful in 4v4s? Because their numbers are hard to manage, and they get ripped apart by almost any Protoss tech. Should I tech up every game?
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if they turtle, you mass expand, and try to harass by using siege...
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1.)mass expand
2.)defend your expansions
3.)make BCs and win
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You could ask Shredder for some tips, although he never was very succesful.
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On April 10 2008 13:11 travis wrote:
1.)mass expand
2.)defend your expansions
3.)make BCs and win
it's 4v4 on hunters... there's no expansions except for the natural.
I'd suggest to work with your allies:
1- if ALL opponents turtle, you and your allies should go fast drops and gang up on one of the opponents. One of you guys should be terran, so you can fast tech to siege tanks to break the turtle. Since all your opponents are turtling, they wont be able to help the guy you guys are attacking.
2- if one or more of your opponents don't turtle, you and your allies should all rush with massive amounts of basic units and gang beat the one kid who didn't turtle. after that, it'll be 4v3, AND you guys will have an extra 2 mineral nodes, so the game should be yours.
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I don't know the skill levels of you or your friends, but if every one else turtles, then you should expand.
Or else, at least try to convince your team mates not to turtle and build troops for map control. Turtlers spend extra money on defense and will usually be short on troops.
Generally at low-level play try to take out 1 or even 2 of the enemy with basic troops, and then start to tech. Even if the other two players have higher tech generally your numbers should win out. At higher levels there will be a lot more micro involved anyways so it's more of a gradual teching by 1 or 2 players per team while the rest macro basic units and try to gain an edge.
AFAIK it doesn't really matter if you bio or metal. Bio is nice if you have toss on your team to meatshield, and you can eventually get bio/tanks which costs less gas because barracks are mineral-only. Early on your marines usually provide fire support or snipe workers during a base assault.
If there are 2 or more toss on your team, usually groups of vults can be gotten very fast, which is useful especially if yout vult micro is good. Mines are excellent for map control.
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You can't really MASS expand in 4v4 hunters, you make yourself a threat to the non-turtles if there are any and there aren't too many expansions in the first place. It's seriously a rush game... you gotta teach your teammates that. I have the feeling that your teammates just play passively and might counter if their attacked, but you have to take initiative in 4v4 because its extremely hard to handle a 4v1 rush in time.
And in my opinion you should start each game by going 2rax academy, but only add more raxes if they keep their tech low. if you see a couple cores or a single templar archives, you might want to add tanks and go biomech (tanks and mnm) or tanks vults/gols if you have the gas.
Mnm is VERY strong if done correctly so keep it up until they tech. Other than that, take initiative and try to coordinate the first attack with your teammates... In hindsight this offered no real advice on killing turtles, but more about 4v4 in general...
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On April 10 2008 13:25 conCentrate9 wrote:
You can't really MASS expand in 4v4 hunters, you make yourself a threat to the non-turtles if there are any and there aren't too many expansions in the first place. It's seriously a rush game... you gotta teach your teammates that. I have the feeling that your teammates just play passively and might counter if their attacked, but you have to take initiative in 4v4 because its extremely hard to handle a 4v1 rush in time.
And in my opinion you should start each game by going 2rax academy, but only add more raxes if they keep their tech low. if you see a couple cores or a single templar archives, you might want to add tanks and go biomech (tanks and mnm) or tanks vults/gols if you have the gas.
Mnm is VERY strong if done correctly so keep it up until they tech. Other than that, take initiative and try to coordinate the first attack with your teammates... In hindsight this offered no real advice on killing turtles, but more about 4v4 in general...
i agree. have 3 allies go MM, and 1 ally go fast tech to tank. as soon as the tank pops out, 3 allies with MM + 1 with tank go break some turtles.
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Baltimore, USA22250 Posts
Well, since LiAlH4 stole my answer...
Erm, 3v3 or 4v4 on hunts you should, like, ALWAYS mass low tier units early game... There is almost not a single situation where you don't want to go 3 gate zealots, M&M, or speedlings. Gang rape whichever opponent is vulnerable and try to turn it into a 2v3 or 3v4.
Build tightly, very tightly, your buildings should be crowding one another. You want to be able to place a defensive structure, if necessary, behind buildings to use as a buffer.
If the game drags on for a bit, just continue to mass up, controlling the middle is usually key. If it reaches mid and starts heading towards late game, whichever team has a Terran turtled in the middle is going to win most likely.
Those are generic tips of course, but seem to fit the mold of a lot of Hunters games you'll play.
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just to build on what ETT said, if all of your opponents are turtling then they won't have the mobility to save their teammates if you just gang up on one of them with lings rines and lots.
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leave the turtles alone!!!
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Watch last night's TG sambo 2v2 match. Wemade vs CJ.
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On April 10 2008 13:17 LiAlH4 wrote:You could ask Shredder for some tips, although he never was very succesful.
hahahha
good one. exactly what i was thinking when i saw this thread title
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
There's no amount a static defense that beats a 4v1 attack. In 4v4 turtling just doesn't work.
As for terran, try foregoing medics and go pure marines from 3 rax before refinery. Normally, you get raped by anything fast and melee, but thankfully, you now have allies to cover your rines. Then, after your attack breaks something and you amass some rines, get an academy and build medics/research stim. One of the main functions of the terran player in 4v4 is to provide scans, so don't be too late with it. Defensive detection may be handled by zergs (one zerg won't have enough ovies stationed at the right places in time), but to go on the offense vs fast tech tosses, you will need scans.
Generally, still, your rate of teching should be abysmal. 4v4 is all about units, and lots of them.
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I played lots of 3v3 hunters and similar.
The way to go IMO is whoever rushes first and well coordinated usually wins - that means you and your allies making 2 zeals or the equivalent, and attack one opponent, repeat.
If this fails, the team usually wins which manages to secure the center of the map, and is able to fortify it (cannons, mines, etc.). Because, doing that, you have diveded the opposing team and can throw enough at one of them to crack his defenses, while his allies cannot help him.
As your allies seem more fond of defenses than rushing, perhaps you can convince them to build their defenses right in the center from the start :-)
The counter to a blocked center, or very heavy defenses is of course: drops.
In midgame reaver/storm/lurker harassment drops do wonders and pave the way for doom drops.
Otherwise I agree what was said above: Tech only slowly, it is all about units.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On April 10 2008 13:17 LiAlH4 wrote:You could ask Shredder for some tips, although he never was very succesful.
I spat cheerios all over myself when i read this i was laughing so hard.
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4v4 PPPP is imbalanced on Hunters 
But as ETT mentioned, team games are usually a battle of low tier units; make M&M, Speedlings, Zealots, w/e because I have never seen a 4v4 go past these low tier units.
However, if you feel that one guy is teching (on the other team or on yours) kill him/defend him first because if he gets DTs/Tanks/Mutalisks the game is usually over :O
Don't quote me on any of this, I'm not a competent 4v4 (hell, even 3v3 and 2v2) player so ..
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Take expoes and defend with superior economy and starve them to death.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 10 2008 13:17 LiAlH4 wrote:You could ask Shredder for some tips, although he never was very succesful.
I now read the topic title to myself in my head very differently.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://suitablyflip.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/shredder.jpg)
