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konadora
Singapore66063 Posts
I'm referring to this:
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/games/471242-tl-recruiting-heroes-of-the-storm-staff
I read it with great joy when I saw that TL is going to keep expanding. It's never a bad thing! Or so I thought.
TL used to be something run not entirely on money or perks, but on passion. People did stuff for the site because they wanted to. People contributed because they wanted to grow that dream and share that passion. And it still is. We definitely wouldn't be here if it wasn't for people who dedicated a huge chunk of their lives into creating, promoting and fine-tuning the content on this volunteer-centric site. But reading some of the comments in that thread saddened me.
People were looking for salary, for pay, for perks, for benefits. What the hell, people. People like day9, Smix, flamewheel, FakeSteve, Chill, Hot_bid all didn't start off because they wanted money out of it. They contributed because they loved the games and they had the passion. That was all the reason they needed. If they can grow into something that they can fully revolve a career around then good for you, but if you are looking to "contribute" for personal benefits instead then I think you're looking in the wrong place. If you want salary or pay then you belong in some journalism site. This isn't the site you are looking for.
Sorry for the rant but I just felt that kind of sentiment shouldn't be what is driving this site. I'm proud of this site and I'm proud of what TL has become. Just felt really insulted by such thinking.
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I read the thread. Shame :c but some of those kinds of people eventually will creep up when the community grew.
On November 15 2014 14:18 DookuSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2014 04:43 Rikudou wrote:wait, arent the TL writers paid usually?  Not sure. But I do remember a few months back when they were looking for Starcraft 2 writers and had no intentions of paying them either."Your reward is having your writing read". FailFish. TL is worth like $30-$50 Million, probably even more, but they can't afford to pay writers lol. User was warned for using twitch memes this post
nazgul pls. $30mil ez
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I think passion is the biggest buzzword in the fucking world. Everyone is passionate about eSports because the culture surrounding it equates to "people who take the game so seriously and with such dedication that they play/follow/support with fervor".
I think those who are looking for volunteers are delusional that people will work without any feeling of return. It doesn't have to be money, it doesn't have to be perks but if you don't get a sentimental return then there really is no justification to be doing this. Some people do love eSports, but to devote their time into contributing for a site without feeling of sacrifice is an exaggerated perspective. You either need to love doing it or simply put, you can love doing it but would like to know what you can get out of it.
It's fair and 100% their choosing. I don't think shaming people that they don't have the passion to do those things without any reward (sentimental/personal or superficially) is fair or right. If others take pride that they purely do things out of passion, then godspeed. If you feel even better comparing others who don't have your level of dedication, then whatever floats your boat.
I'll give myself as an example about a feeling of return. I have 3-4 years of "selfless" volunteering whether it was event planning, writing and player-management. I'm not going to go through my whole history, but I stopped working for a certain organization or another, when I felt I couldn't learn any more from them, when I needed to grow elsewhere. That was my motivation:
1. To prove I can do things more than my silly diploma at university
2. To watch things grow and learn the trade of work
3. For the appreciation. I still do Dota 2 guides for 2 reasons: A. I stop sucking so hard and B. For the comments and appreciation which always make me fucking smile. Every time.
In truth, that's how most people work. If they have fun doing something, use writing for a site as a way to stay in touch or involved in the scene, then that's their motivation on top of their "passion". If people want to contribute but see their time as too valued to do free work (on top of their studies or even real-life jobs) then I don't think that's shameful but completely normal.
Dictating how much or little reason someone needs to do something is a utilitarian bullshit approach. Sorry Konadora ): I love you bro but I'm definitely in disagreement, so much that I might even write a piece about it.
I got involved in eSports because it looked good on my CV (results, work ethic, reputation), it was something I could do from home while I finished my degree and it bolstered my self-confidence from sitting at home playing 14 hours of video games to sitting at home and doing 14 hours of player-management, event logistics/planning and writing for news sites. Now I'm on the other side actually making it a full-time career and it was, without a doubt, something I hoped for but wasn't with my realm of aspirations as I assumed the ceiling for work in eSports is smaller than it really is (it's so much larger, but unless you truly stand out, you'll be paid shit wages under the same line of reasoning: "youre passionate"). I went from a community member with too much free time on his hands to earning a very, very comfortable amount + I'm living in Europe!
Don't do things because you're passionate, do it because you love the game, the scene and love yourself enough to take advantage of opportunities. In eSports, the amount of avenues to get real, applicable work (paid or not) is perhaps its greatest quality but also an overplayed out area for companies to take advantage of people (TeamLiquid being, of course, an exception to that rule without a doubt).
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konadora
Singapore66063 Posts
I think your definition of passion isn't quite correct. I don't have to or even want to follow every single detail about something I am passionate about. It doesn't even have to be serious about everything about it. I think it is more on just simply put, "how much do you love doing what you are doing?" and "are you doing it simply because you want to?"
As for benefits, I don't deny on the sentimental part but that is exactly what I am going on about. People seem too fixated on getting SOMETHING out of it. They want to do it BECAUSE they want something out of it. Achieving a goal through it and wanting rewards out of it directly from the one who "hires" them (because this is volunteerism after all) are two different things. Yes, you can choose to be a bunch of people with little to no financial backing and moral support, but if you are loving what you are doing AND at the same time hope that whatever you are doing grows big, then sure why not? Isn't that enough? The small bunch of casters who started from a bunch of leftover props over at OGN think so. I think the current generation is largely spoiled (at least from personal observation, and in my country) because they want things to be done or to happen to them. If it is something like a real paying job then sure, it is equivalent exchange, but volunteerism and such should be done with the process due in mind mostly, while looking at the end result. Most do not make their own effort to grow the potential and opportunities given and rather demand things on a silver platter. That is what annoys me the most.
I am not shaming people who want to do things for reward. In fact, it isn't wrong. But you have to look at the relativity of it. If you are required to work 16 hours a day for 6 days a week, every week of the year to do the write ups then yes, definitely. But volunteerism is something else, you are only expected to do work because you want to do so and intend to do so. No one's asking you to do them. The very opportunity to write on the biggest ESPORTS site itself is rewarding, in my opinion. For the same fans who are equally in love with the game or whatever it is to appreciate your work and build on the scene through it, there is really nothing else more rewarding in soul. What happens afterwards is your future work and dedication and desire, and that itself is not wrong either. So to ask for something more in addition to all that immaterial perks taints the very nature of volunteerism. That is my opinion and that is why I was angst about the whole issue.
Hope that was somewhat clear enough man, and it's okay because I love you too <3 Different people have different ideas, so if we can't agree on each other's views then we can still agree to disagree.
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I think the 'issue' is that you are considering two different types of writers. On the one hand you have the serious journalists that have gone to school for this kind of thing, have studied for a while on how to write out real articles, and how to make a point come across well in an article. These people see this kind of thing as a bit of a slap in the face to what it is that they do, because it essentially is devaluing them. A good friend of mine is one such person like this, and due to the nature of the scene it's next to impossible to find anything that will pay him what he is worth (despite having a real journalism degree and real experience writing for teams/companies in esports).
On the other hand though TL has always been about giving people a place to write, and to really develop. The key has always been that 'if you have the passion for it, and are willing to work, you can do it.' TL has never paid its writers, and yet despite this there have been few (if any) cases where the writers left TL to work on another site, even if the other site offered to pay. I think that this is due to a number of reasons, but has a lot to do with the culture here. It's a small community based around that passion, and that is who it applies to.
This is what Kona is complaining about I think. That a lot of the people that started inquiring about the position aren't people that actually want to write about Heroes of the Storm, but people just looking to try and make money. Factually I don't even think they fall into the first category at all either, as from just skimming it doesn't seem like they are serious writers looking for a place for their passion. I could be wrong about this of course, but it does feel that way to me. Even then, I would argue that TL will never be a place that will make people work for hours on end to get articles done for them.
Really you're both right is what it comes down to. Real journalists that do a lot of work ont heir articles and do it as their job should be paid. However I don't think TL falls under that category, and so an unpaid volunteer system is fine for them.
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Jerry Seinfeld said he got in to comedy because "He wanted to be one of those guys". That's how I view esports and that's what my motivation is. Being able to make a living on esports would be amazing but just being in the community is enough.
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On November 16 2014 03:15 konadora wrote:
I think your definition of passion isn't quite correct. I don't have to or even want to follow every single detail about something I am passionate about. It doesn't even have to be serious about everything about it. I think it is more on just simply put, "how much do you love doing what you are doing?" and "are you doing it simply because you want to?"
As for benefits, I don't deny on the sentimental part but that is exactly what I am going on about. People seem too fixated on getting SOMETHING out of it. They want to do it BECAUSE they want something out of it. Achieving a goal through it and wanting rewards out of it directly from the one who "hires" them (because this is volunteerism after all) are two different things. Yes, you can choose to be a bunch of people with little to no financial backing and moral support, but if you are loving what you are doing AND at the same time hope that whatever you are doing grows big, then sure why not? Isn't that enough? The small bunch of casters who started from a bunch of leftover props over at OGN think so. I think the current generation is largely spoiled (at least from personal observation, and in my country) because they want things to be done or to happen to them. If it is something like a real paying job then sure, it is equivalent exchange, but volunteerism and such should be done with the process due in mind mostly, while looking at the end result. Most do not make their own effort to grow the potential and opportunities given and rather demand things on a silver platter. That is what annoys me the most.
I am not shaming people who want to do things for reward. In fact, it isn't wrong. But you have to look at the relativity of it. If you are required to work 16 hours a day for 6 days a week, every week of the year to do the write ups then yes, definitely. But volunteerism is something else, you are only expected to do work because you want to do so and intend to do so. No one's asking you to do them. The very opportunity to write on the biggest ESPORTS site itself is rewarding, in my opinion. For the same fans who are equally in love with the game or whatever it is to appreciate your work and build on the scene through it, there is really nothing else more rewarding in soul. What happens afterwards is your future work and dedication and desire, and that itself is not wrong either. So to ask for something more in addition to all that immaterial perks taints the very nature of volunteerism. That is my opinion and that is why I was angst about the whole issue.
Hope that was somewhat clear enough man, and it's okay because I love you too <3 Different people have different ideas, so if we can't agree on each other's views then we can still agree to disagree.
I agree with your first paragraph, I think your second paragraph definitely depends on experience. I think on this day and age, people naturally inquire what else is in it for them. This might be bullshit, but it's a world of skepticism, information and resource, I would always want to know the full scale of benefits/view of a project before getting involved. Too many organizations talk like they're doing you a favour hiring you when they have neither the prestige nor above value than any of their competitors (not speaking about TL in this regard). I think in life, things aren't fair and those whether who are like me or even before me, who have done their fair share of slave-work/volunteerism to be where they are have been earned and for many, unfairly earned. It's just not comparable to talk how spoil this 'generation' is now when we're trying to progress the scene overall into a place where entry-level positions for any business, big or small, is not unpaid.
In my experience, people want you to volunteer but treat you like an employee. I've had people tell me that I'm their boss and I've had others joke around about firing other volunteers and maybe that's bad luck of the draw for myself and friends, but the ideals of volunteering are definitely disproportionate to those who are looking for volunteers; are offering. I mean, Blizzard Entertainment was looking for writers, but wasn't paying; of course that died. Razer is the same: they were looking for contributors but weren't paying and 2P.com is in a similar sense where they pay writers depending on how much traffic/advertising revenue they get. At what level is it 'passionate' volunteerism or taking advantage of a scene? If I'm going to volunteer, should I volunteer for companies that reputation and let them take advantage of this scene or contribute to sites who, in my opinion, deserve it? It's all relative and it further goes to show the unfairness of current and past generations of this culture.
On November 16 2014 04:03 kirsed wrote:
Jerry Seinfeld said he got in to comedy because "He wanted to be one of those guys". That's how I view esports and that's what my motivation is. Being able to make a living on esports would be amazing but just being in the community is enough.
Yeah, I'm all about the community as well. The living right now is purely because these are the offers I get.
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I would've agreed with this rant a few years ago, but things have changed. The spirit of volunteerism that TL managed to uphold over the years was born out of the fact that TL wasn't and didn't want to be profitable. Everyone worked together to keep foreign BW alive and nobody would've dreamed of being paid for their work because noone, TL included, was making money.
These days, TL is firmly a business. I have no idea how profitable it is, but it's very easy to see that for a while now, management decisions have been made with the goal of increasing the user base and finding ways to make a profit. There's nothing wrong with that (although personally I do miss the old TL), but it does mean that asking the large majority of your contributors to work 'for the passion of it' is somewhat problematic.
Whether TL would be capable of paying more of its staff I have no idea, but it shouldn't come as a surprise (and shouldn't be looked down upon) that people wonder what they're going to get out of it when they work for a business.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 16 2014 09:05 Orome wrote:
Whether TL would be capable of paying more of its staff I have no idea, but it shouldn't come as a surprise (and shouldn't be looked down upon) that people wonder what they're going to get out of it when they work for a business.
This is something that's been discussed multiple times among ourselves, and every time it concludes with the same note: there's no incentive (on their side) to pay us because the volunteer pool is so big. This is exacerbated by the fact that in terms of actual writing quality, we're in the Industrial Age while most websites are depending on horsepower.
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On November 16 2014 11:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 09:05 Orome wrote:
Whether TL would be capable of paying more of its staff I have no idea, but it shouldn't come as a surprise (and shouldn't be looked down upon) that people wonder what they're going to get out of it when they work for a business. This is something that's been discussed multiple times among ourselves, and every time it concludes with the same note: there's no reason to pay us because there will always be volunteers.
"No reason to raise wages for waiters because people will always tip"
Not picking sides or making an opinion about TeamLiquid's consistency in maintaining a high level of volunteers, but I feel that argument is pretty circular.
I commend anyone who gets involved on a volunteer-basis with the vocal interest of wanting to get more involved in eSports as a full-time job or breaking out into something that can establish a lifestyle they want rather than playing naive and putting himself or herself down.
Maybe it's my cynicism protruding publicly, but the inner-culture of volunteers really festers some terrible thought processes. Like you shouldn't be thinking how to move forward in the world (and be satisfied with just volunteering) and that you need to pay your dues before expecting payment or value of your work. As if it is abnormal to want to go and do AND BE more than what you are doing now and really become something. It's a false-naivete and a thought process some assume is exclusive when really, they're so inclusive. I loved volunteering my time to work with so many awesome people and organizations and learn so much but I also would have and now can do this as a full-time career: whether it is gaming or eSports.
Perhaps it's just my own experience, even I played down my history, pride in that workmanship and visions of my future just to avoid a stigma from those I respected the most. Bah, it's all very political and I'm getting very vague.
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ya that's a really bad reason for not paying somebody
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United States15275 Posts
On November 16 2014 11:48 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 11:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 16 2014 09:05 Orome wrote:
Whether TL would be capable of paying more of its staff I have no idea, but it shouldn't come as a surprise (and shouldn't be looked down upon) that people wonder what they're going to get out of it when they work for a business. This is something that's been discussed multiple times among ourselves, and every time it concludes with the same note: there's no reason to pay us because there will always be volunteers. "No reason to raise wages for waiters because people will always tip" No picking sides or making an opinion about TeamLiquid's consistency in maintaining a high level of volunteers, but I feel that argument is pretty circular.
From the management's perspective, or the logic of the discussion?
On November 16 2014 11:49 Orome wrote:
ya that's a really bad reason for not paying somebody
I think you look at it from the twin perspectives of
"We don't know how long these writers' dedication will last, we don't know when more pressing issues will interfere with their output, and we don't have a strong communication structure to hold them accountable."
"We basically have a monopoly in terms of creative StarCraft writing and no one else is challenging us on that front (oftentimes, it seems we're the only website that even bothers to properly edit its content)."
Then it makes a great deal of sense to not monetize that aspect.
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On November 16 2014 11:52 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 11:48 Torte de Lini wrote:On November 16 2014 11:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 16 2014 09:05 Orome wrote:
Whether TL would be capable of paying more of its staff I have no idea, but it shouldn't come as a surprise (and shouldn't be looked down upon) that people wonder what they're going to get out of it when they work for a business. This is something that's been discussed multiple times among ourselves, and every time it concludes with the same note: there's no reason to pay us because there will always be volunteers. "No reason to raise wages for waiters because people will always tip" No picking sides or making an opinion about TeamLiquid's consistency in maintaining a high level of volunteers, but I feel that argument is pretty circular. From the management's perspective, or the logic of the discussion?
Logic of the discussion mostly. I don't know how a group of volunteers can conclude not to be paid because they can be replaced by an assumed infinite amount of equally experienced volunteers (even if they aren't experienced, your experience in working with an organization and just overall work experience, is valuable; even if unpaid originally).
I'm not saying it's time to rebel and start demanding TL to start paying writers, etc. If anything, I exempt such a claim to Team Liquid because of how it fosters such an active and healthy community (even when splitting into three separate sites -- preserving that community is pretty selfless even if paid), but I am saying that that is a very strange line of reasoning that everyone can happily claim when it puts themselves at a disadvantage (if we're speaking objectively).
"Don't pay us because we all know you guys can find others"
"Don't raise our wages, we all know the clients will tip us the difference"
On November 16 2014 11:52 CosmicSpiral wrote:
I think you look at it from the twin perspectives of
"We don't know how long these writers' dedication will last, we don't know when more pressing issues will interfere with their output, and we don't have a strong communication structure to hold them accountable."
"We basically have a monopoly in terms of creative StarCraft writing and no one else is challenging us on that front (oftentimes, it seems we're the only website that even bothers to properly edit its content)."
Then it makes a great deal of sense to not monetize that aspect.
Ha yeah, that's the nature of the beast unfortunately. Volunteers run on personal satisfaction, appreciation and recognition. At one point, it may simply not be enough for them and they end up just writing for whatever perks you're offering. No doubt there but that's also a deteriorating flow of work ethic.
I agree, but also find that thought a bit flawed in that you don't want to combat the system because it requires more resources and manpower to maintain that it's really worth (or can be predicted as worth)
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United States15275 Posts
On November 16 2014 11:55 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 11:52 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 16 2014 11:48 Torte de Lini wrote:On November 16 2014 11:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 16 2014 09:05 Orome wrote:
Whether TL would be capable of paying more of its staff I have no idea, but it shouldn't come as a surprise (and shouldn't be looked down upon) that people wonder what they're going to get out of it when they work for a business. This is something that's been discussed multiple times among ourselves, and every time it concludes with the same note: there's no reason to pay us because there will always be volunteers. "No reason to raise wages for waiters because people will always tip" No picking sides or making an opinion about TeamLiquid's consistency in maintaining a high level of volunteers, but I feel that argument is pretty circular. From the management's perspective, or the logic of the discussion? Logic of the discussion mostly. I don't know how a group of volunteers can conclude not to be paid because they can be replaced by an assumed infinite amount of equally experienced volunteers (even if they aren't experienced, your experience in working with an organization and just overall work experience, is valuable; even if unpaid originally). I'm not saying it's time to rebel and start demanding TL to start paying writers, etc. If anything, I exempt such a claim to Team Liquid because of how it fosters such an active and healthy community (even when splitting into three separate sites -- preserving that community is pretty selfless even if paid), but I am saying that that is a very strange line of reasoning that everyone can happily claim when it puts themselves at a disadvantage (if we're speaking objectively). "Don't pay us because we all know you guys can find others" "Don't raise our wages, we all know the clients will tip us the difference"
We didn't conclude that as a compelling argument to keep us as volunteers. It was the attempt to simulate the thought processes of TL management as to why that option isn't open. The conclusion was the higher-ups have very little incentive to offer that option due to overwhelming options and a lack of competition. Some of us were satisfied with the logic, others weren't. But overall, we realize that turning volunteer writing into writing jobs isn't an appealing notion for TL management at the moment.
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On November 16 2014 12:03 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 11:55 Torte de Lini wrote:On November 16 2014 11:52 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 16 2014 11:48 Torte de Lini wrote:On November 16 2014 11:44 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 16 2014 09:05 Orome wrote:
Whether TL would be capable of paying more of its staff I have no idea, but it shouldn't come as a surprise (and shouldn't be looked down upon) that people wonder what they're going to get out of it when they work for a business. This is something that's been discussed multiple times among ourselves, and every time it concludes with the same note: there's no reason to pay us because there will always be volunteers. "No reason to raise wages for waiters because people will always tip" No picking sides or making an opinion about TeamLiquid's consistency in maintaining a high level of volunteers, but I feel that argument is pretty circular. From the management's perspective, or the logic of the discussion? Logic of the discussion mostly. I don't know how a group of volunteers can conclude not to be paid because they can be replaced by an assumed infinite amount of equally experienced volunteers (even if they aren't experienced, your experience in working with an organization and just overall work experience, is valuable; even if unpaid originally). I'm not saying it's time to rebel and start demanding TL to start paying writers, etc. If anything, I exempt such a claim to Team Liquid because of how it fosters such an active and healthy community (even when splitting into three separate sites -- preserving that community is pretty selfless even if paid), but I am saying that that is a very strange line of reasoning that everyone can happily claim when it puts themselves at a disadvantage (if we're speaking objectively). "Don't pay us because we all know you guys can find others" "Don't raise our wages, we all know the clients will tip us the difference" We didn't conclude that as a compelling argument to keep us as volunteers. It was the attempt to simulate the thought processes of TL management as to why that option isn't open. The conclusion was the higher-ups have very little incentive to offer that option due to overwhelming options and a lack of competition. Some of us were satisfied with the logic, others weren't.
Pretty straight-forward, I wouldn't quit knowing that truth, but it is a bit scary hahaha
Good clarification, thanks
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United States15275 Posts
On November 16 2014 12:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
Pretty straight-forward, I wouldn't quit knowing that truth, but it is a bit scary hahaha
Good clarification, thanks
As you said before, it's just the nature of the beast. A community with a healthy culture of volunteerism will consistently give great output, but it will naturally be resistant to breaking from the model. Why mess with what works (and also put you at the top)?
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On November 16 2014 12:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 12:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
Pretty straight-forward, I wouldn't quit knowing that truth, but it is a bit scary hahaha
Good clarification, thanks As you said before, it's just the nature of the beast. A community with a healthy culture of volunteerism will consistently give great output, but it will naturally be resistant to breaking from the model. Why mess with what works (and also put you at the top)?
I want to assume that TeamLiquid's consistency in a growing healthy community (despite what old-timers and naysayers say about the community now) and maintaining the progressive community is what spurs such a strong culture of volunteerism. It's a reason why I don't really hold much obligation or demand on how TL operates because I like to think they've tilled the soil, sowed it with great content from the get-go and kept it healthy for harvest.
Perhaps that's a little manipulative-sounding, but it is what differentiates a site that cultivates such a cultural upbringing as opposed to sites that just sort of expect it or expect a willingness to get volunteer with their organization (over any other).
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On November 16 2014 12:24 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2014 12:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:On November 16 2014 12:09 Torte de Lini wrote:
Pretty straight-forward, I wouldn't quit knowing that truth, but it is a bit scary hahaha
Good clarification, thanks As you said before, it's just the nature of the beast. A community with a healthy culture of volunteerism will consistently give great output, but it will naturally be resistant to breaking from the model. Why mess with what works (and also put you at the top)? I want to assume that TeamLiquid's consistency in a growing healthy community (despite what old-timers and naysayers say about the community now) and maintaining the progressive community is what spurs such a strong culture of volunteerism. It's a reason why I don't really hold much obligation or demand on how TL operates because I like to think they've tilled the soil, sowed it with great content from the get-go and kept it healthy for harvest. Perhaps that's a little manipulative-sounding, but it is what differentiates a site that cultivates such a cultural upbringing as opposed to sites that just sort of expect it or expect a willingness to get volunteer with their organization (over any other).
I totally agree with this point here (or at least what I think you're trying to say). To put it in my own words, I think what has keep TL (all of the subdivisions) great is that the positions are filled by volunteers, so you don't have to weed out the people who are only there for the money or fame.
If this were like politics (at least in the US, I can't speak for other countries), you want people who are doing it for the greater good but you can't separate them from the people who just want the money or the easy job. If politicians got paid a lot less/were volunteers, you could bet we'd have a lot fewer sleazy politicians. That's not exactly a good justification of not paying people (like I do think our politicians should make some money for their effort at least), but I do think that's the explanation for why the sites end up so great.
So far this thread is full of some of the greatest examples of passion and volunteerism in the entire community, I almost feel bad posting here because I'm just a long time lurker...
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budragen88, without people like you and me, there wouldn't be a site ;-) (yes, very cheesy).
LiquidDota has yet to get its first "forum star". I am looking forward to the first one being given though. It would bring volunteering in a positive focus. Can't currently think of a candidate though but this site is still young.
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