EPTI don't think that's scummy at all. I had the same kind of train of thought about Vanesco that i see from WoS. Just because WoS did post his thought process in many parts does that make him scum? What's wrong in the thought process, i don't anything wrong with it - maybe i am biased because i thought basically the same at first and reached into similar conclusion than WoS did - but could you elaborate more on why the thought process can't come from a townie?
Witchcraft Mini Mafia II - Page 22
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
I don't think that's scummy at all. I had the same kind of train of thought about Vanesco that i see from WoS. Just because WoS did post his thought process in many parts does that make him scum? What's wrong in the thought process, i don't anything wrong with it - maybe i am biased because i thought basically the same at first and reached into similar conclusion than WoS did - but could you elaborate more on why the thought process can't come from a townie? | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On November 05 2013 11:40 Vanesco wrote: So I will address my opinion's of Cephiro RIGHT before his massive post and then address the huge post. He comes into the game giving a vote and no real reasonings. He also hides many of his reads by saying he has secondary reasons for voting WoS and that he doesn't feel that his SEVERAL reads are worth sharing. I understand not wanting to share all of them but effectively the only read that seems obvious is that you are suspicious of WoS (before the massive post). It seems like the connection that me and WoS is all one-sided from WoS's filter POV. It seems like the only player you have focused on ever since entering the game has been WoS, as if you are tunnel visioning. And the connection between us is also only done from WoS's point of view. Is it also possible that he is scum and I am town and he is trying to find reasons for others to jump on me for an easy day 1 lynch? Or is it maybe possible we are both town and he had suspicions on me and is questioning my play? I also think that a day 1 lynch on WoS is not a good idea since most people have either expressed they think he is town, or have not given a read on him (I'm assuming for now those mean null). I thought before that WoS was a little scummy but since then he become slightly town for me. His frustration with Cephiro's arguments seem to be something that a fed up town would do. I think that most people in the thread will agree with me that there are targets that seem more suspicious than WoS. Maybe Cephiro is trying to deflect off of somebody that was being targetted? He seems very much to want to keep the discussion on mainly WoS and only WoS. Yes, I have several reads that I don't think are worth sharing. Do you think it's useful if I told my opinions on every player in the game, even if half of them would be nullreads? A read could be a townread, scumread, or a nullread, or anything between. Why should I concentrate on telling the thread that "Guiz, I'm not sure if X is town or scum"? There is no point for a town to do that. It doesn't provide anything to go by. I don't give a shit if you're unsure about someone. Come and tell me when you think that he's either town or scum. Preferably when he's scum, unless you have a good reason for defending someone to be town without 100% knowing their alignment. I want to discuss WoS of course since he's my biggest scumread. Your argument at the end is a blatant lie, as I have already said many times that I want others to share their reads about who are scum if they do not agree with me. Almost no-one has done that. Sure there are other possibilities. I may be wrong. However, how convincing is a case where I'd constantly point out possible flaws in my own thinking? I actually think I even did that at some points in the case. I'm not tunneling anyone, I am presenting my opinion and my reasoning for thinking that opinion. If I'm wrong, then I am. Then why don't you try to tell me WHY I am wrong, by either pointing out the way my arguments are flawed, or by pointing out other cases that point towards WoS being scum unlikely? Instead you decide to just straight question me and claim that I haven't thought of other possibilities. If I am wrong, tell me why I am wrong. If you think I'm scum, then continue whatever you were doing, but do it with real reasoning (like your first point about me not sharing my reads on other players, which I addressed.) | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On November 05 2013 11:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Wow. I just fucking dodged a game of LoL by accident because I was all ready to type something to you and lost LP. Fuck this, Ceph. I have no desire to get into it with you at all. All it will amount to is a huge shitfest because I can already tell you will not have your mind changed at all based on the sheer zealousness of your case and your posting. You can cry and scream and threaten all you like. Go ahead, you can even spam the thread like Rayn. I will not be getting lynched today so you'd better start diverting your attention span elsewhere. I will be pushing my own lynches when and where I feel like, and am comfortable where my vote is right now. I am simply asking you to tell me who is scum and why. I'm certainly open to changing my opinion, but you are currently only giving me reasons for the exact opposite. Yet still I'm here, giving you a chance to share your reads with me and the thread, but you blatantly refuse. Tell the town why you think your scumreads are scum. Give us the reasons and the thoughts that made you think like that. If you continue to ignore this, reasonable request, I can't help but to assume you're a scum who doesn't want to give town anything to go by. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On November 05 2013 11:52 Cephiro wrote: I am simply asking you to tell me who is scum and why. I'm certainly open to changing my opinion, but you are currently only giving me reasons for the exact opposite. Yet still I'm here, giving you a chance to share your reads with me and the thread, but you blatantly refuse. Tell the town why you think your scumreads are scum. Give us the reasons and the thoughts that made you think like that. If you continue to ignore this, reasonable request, I can't help but to assume you're a scum who doesn't want to give town anything to go by. Suddenly seeing the parallels between WoS and Sn0-- holy shit Vulcan Mind Meld | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On November 05 2013 11:54 thrawn2112 wrote: ##unvote That was for Rayn, right? I'm hoping he'll come around and take up my offer, the olive branch I extended for a couple more scum reads ASAP. Somehow he has it in his head that activity == time in the thread and it's just not the whole pizza. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On November 05 2013 11:57 ObviousOne wrote: That was for Rayn, right? I'm hoping he'll come around and take up my offer, the olive branch I extended for a couple more scum reads ASAP. Somehow he has it in his head that activity == time in the thread and it's just not the whole pizza. correct he's been posting things I agree with. for now I'm going to wait and see who he wants to lynch | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On November 05 2013 11:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: Cephiro to answer to your example about WoS: I don't think that's scummy at all. I had the same kind of train of thought about Vanesco that i see from WoS. Just because WoS did post his thought process in many parts does that make him scum? What's wrong in the thought process, i don't anything wrong with it - maybe i am biased because i thought basically the same at first and reached into similar conclusion than WoS did - but could you elaborate more on why the thought process can't come from a townie? I see your point. And I do not expect my read to be right based on one example only. It was an example only to get my point across to you. It's more about the amount of things that would be incredibly convinient for scum that happen, and the reactions of WoS that are in strong contrast with his own opinions of how a townie should play the game. Single thought processes of his could very well come from a townie yes, but looking at the whole history of his, I find it much more likely to be done from a scum perspective, for one reason alone the sheer amount of inconsistencies and his refusal to correct or address many of them. On November 05 2013 11:50 thrawn2112 wrote: Cephiro perhaps I need to be a little more clear. NOT ONLY do I not accept that scum are more likely to be inconsistent, I wouldn't be surprised if the complete opposite is true. Have you never missed a math question, have you never forgotten anything? Why would you expect someone who rolls town in an online forum game of mafia to be perfect? Townies aren't the ones who are constantly wondering if their story adds up, mafia are. You can point out as many inconsistencies in WoS's play as you like and I will never listen to you unless you can show me how the inconsistencies are specifically scum-motivated. You need to show a clear mafia agenda behind the fuck-ups, otherwise you've just gone and pointed out a bunch of things that can probably be found in every single filter in every mafia game. The other reason of why I don't like your case is because of the strong town vibes I feel while reading WoS's posts. I sense nothing fake/reserved/malicious/secretive about them. Alright, I very well see your point. I certainly don't expect townies to play perfectly. I personally just consider it more likely for someone that is constant pressure about being caught in a lie to be inconsistent in their story (especially the longer the story becomes), rather than for a townie that is simply telling the story as his opinions move forward. (Basically for a honest townie, the only inconsistencies come from if he doesn't care about what he said earlier, or forgot and does a sudden change of mind without reasoning, which is rare in my opinion.) Thank you for providing the reasoning behind your point though. I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong, but we'll have agree to disagree on this one it seems. At several points in the case (in my opinion), I provided good thoughts as for why the inconsistencies are especially scum-motivated. That can't be said for every point, as there are so many things to be considered ambigiously. But I tried my best to show why certain things are in my opinion clearly done from a mafia perspective. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On November 05 2013 12:02 Cephiro wrote: I see your point. And I do not expect my read to be right based on one example only. It was an example only to get my point across to you. It's more about the amount of things that would be incredibly convinient for scum that happen, and the reactions of WoS that are in strong contrast with his own opinions of how a townie should play the game. Single thought processes of his could very well come from a townie yes, but looking at the whole history of his, I find it much more likely to be done from a scum perspective, for one reason alone the sheer amount of inconsistencies and his refusal to correct or address many of them. Alright, I very well see your point. I certainly don't expect townies to play perfectly. I personally just consider it more likely for someone that is constant pressure about being caught in a lie to be inconsistent in their story (especially the longer the story becomes), rather than for a townie that is simply telling the story as his opinions move forward. (Basically for a honest townie, the only inconsistencies come from if he doesn't care about what he said earlier, or forgot and does a sudden change of mind without reasoning, which is rare in my opinion.) Thank you for providing the reasoning behind your point though. I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong, but we'll have agree to disagree on this one it seems. At several points in the case (in my opinion), I provided good thoughts as for why the inconsistencies are especially scum-motivated. That can't be said for every point, as there are so many things to be considered ambigiously. But I tried my best to show why certain things are in my opinion clearly done from a mafia perspective. Part of your duty to the coven is to be as readable as possible, which I mean in the most literal sense. A long stream of quotes with responses is semi-useful but it's also very challenging to get through from a eyes-to-screen standpoint. Use headings, perhaps spoiler the bigger quotes, and just in general make it more appealing to the eye because it was super easy to just start scrolling. There's nothing wrong with your style if you make your best effort to get it into a digestible form which might take a little extra work but you might see a lot less pushback to it that way. Just my 2 Loonies. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On November 05 2013 11:26 gumshoe wrote: I suggest rather taking a gander at the rats that scurried out right after my case, sno oo and onegu, what do you feel regarding them? Oh and sorry all if my posting quality will be lower tonight, phones are hard. Sn0_Man: Hasn't provided a lot. The way he plays ticks me off in general, but unfortunately his town play has a tendency to do that for me. I'm annoyed by the fact that he isn't providing more, and it's no excuse to let him live for longer. It's just when I have more content to go by and someone I am fairly sure is scum, I'd rather than lynch that person than someone who is close to a nulltell and hasn't provided much to go by. If I was unsure in my reads, I'd consider him a great target for at least pressuring. Posts like these are especially what I dislike: On November 05 2013 03:50 Sn0_Man wrote: MEANWHILE I have no actual idea who is scum so I'm making sure people don't decide to lurker lynch me  ObviousOne: His style of posting is very different from what I'd ideally like to see. However, I see him more likely to be town than scum currently. Even though there are some very non-committal jabs and useless oneliners in his filter as well, there are some good points that he raises up, and he tries to chime his opinion in most matters that are being discussed without seeming he wouldn't actually give a fuck. He's also very confident in his read on Sn0, and I like the fact that he keeps pushing it even though it has unfortunately been ignored to a big extent. Onegu: Hasn't done anything worth mentioning. First page of filter mostly random rambling on meds, and any "content" he may have posted is mostly one-liners. They're more like simple observations that he felt like pointing out rather than actually contributing. Again, unfortunately non-committal play with TL townies seems to an unfortunately common syndrome, but at the moment there isn't simply anything ticking me too much in the way or other. It just annoys me that he's not providing more content. Too null, wouldn't lynch yet. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On November 05 2013 12:08 ObviousOne wrote: Part of your duty to the coven is to be as readable as possible, which I mean in the most literal sense. A long stream of quotes with responses is semi-useful but it's also very challenging to get through from a eyes-to-screen standpoint. Use headings, perhaps spoiler the bigger quotes, and just in general make it more appealing to the eye because it was super easy to just start scrolling. There's nothing wrong with your style if you make your best effort to get it into a digestible form which might take a little extra work but you might see a lot less pushback to it that way. Just my 2 Loonies. That is true. It would be more pleasant and easier to tackle if it was formatted better. If town wants me to, I can try to re-format that post in it's whole. Otherwise I'll just try to make my next one look better if I get totally into the thought process like this time. Mainly the moment I finished that I just pressed enter and was like "Fuck yes all done, let's share this." Rather than "Time to make it look pretty and more convinient for everyone". Thank you for the feedback. So what do you think about my case on WoS? Do you think it has enough valid points to lynch him today, or are you still thinking his play looks too towny to be lynched today, and would rather lynch someone else today? (Rather than obviously wanting to lynch Sn0) | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On November 05 2013 04:12 Onegu wrote: Im out for now getting bored with this back and forth as its going nowwhere and just shitting up the thread. Lynch me if you like. Im going to look at other people as I am basicly done with WoS now. His posts are way to over the top now. This is the last thing he said to me. All he repeatedly does is bring up how I used a subjective description of myself in my defenses to gumshoe, when that was only a tiny part and admittedly the weakest part. He refuses to even acknowledge the rest of it in the original post, and when I point it out to him, he fucks off, saying that I am 'too over the top.' I don't even understand what the fuck that means. If he was referring to my arrogance yeah maybe I can understand that, but I don't even use any of that until after he's long gone! Most important thing is when I ask him to give us original content and reads all he does is harp on the whole 'subjective' thing again without offering anything new on me OR anyone else. Even then if I am his only target at the time, you'd think that it would make sense to continue to push me and convince others to vote me like at least Cephiro is doing. He does neither. It's a half-assed attempt at not backing down from a mislynch he thought might have happened but won't, and he has nothing else to offer. Scum. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On November 05 2013 12:02 Cephiro wrote: I see your point. And I do not expect my read to be right based on one example only. It was an example only to get my point across to you. It's more about the amount of things that would be incredibly convinient for scum that happen, and the reactions of WoS that are in strong contrast with his own opinions of how a townie should play the game. Single thought processes of his could very well come from a townie yes, but looking at the whole history of his, I find it much more likely to be done from a scum perspective, for one reason alone the sheer amount of inconsistencies and his refusal to correct or address many of them. Alright, I very well see your point. I certainly don't expect townies to play perfectly. I personally just consider it more likely for someone that is constant pressure about being caught in a lie to be inconsistent in their story (especially the longer the story becomes), rather than for a townie that is simply telling the story as his opinions move forward. (Basically for a honest townie, the only inconsistencies come from if he doesn't care about what he said earlier, or forgot and does a sudden change of mind without reasoning, which is rare in my opinion.) Thank you for providing the reasoning behind your point though. I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong, but we'll have agree to disagree on this one it seems. At several points in the case (in my opinion), I provided good thoughts as for why the inconsistencies are especially scum-motivated. That can't be said for every point, as there are so many things to be considered ambigiously. But I tried my best to show why certain things are in my opinion clearly done from a mafia perspective. My refusal to correct inconsistencies? That's because THERE ARE NONE. Cephiro bring up one example of an inconsistency from your case right now and I will show you how it's not in one instant; I wouldn't be surprised if it's already in the thread. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
I will not be around for deadline tomorrow. I may be around during my lunch hour but after tonight assume this will be the end of my activity for D1. If people pull some shenannies and attempt to lynch me in that time, just know what it is you're doing exactly. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On November 05 2013 12:16 Cephiro wrote: That is true. It would be more pleasant and easier to tackle if it was formatted better. If town wants me to, I can try to re-format that post in it's whole. Otherwise I'll just try to make my next one look better if I get totally into the thought process like this time. Mainly the moment I finished that I just pressed enter and was like "Fuck yes all done, let's share this." Rather than "Time to make it look pretty and more convinient for everyone". Thank you for the feedback. So what do you think about my case on WoS? Do you think it has enough valid points to lynch him today, or are you still thinking his play looks too towny to be lynched today, and would rather lynch someone else today? (Rather than obviously wanting to lynch Sn0) Like I just mentioned a couple posts ago, I'm drawing parallels between what Sn0 is doing and what WoS is doing, but WoS is actually here. Doesn't seem inquisitive enough to me for a town WoS but I didn't read the beginning of the Les Mafia game so I don't know how he opens up and if it will even be applicable given that it's a single game. That fact is that I'm comfortable catching out a scum WoS by seeing how he reacts to changes in the game state and how/which lynches he does push and that's just not something that can be done on Day 1 with no information. Sn0, on the other hand, poked my beehive and I'm full force on that. It's sort of a running thing that the people who call me scum when I am town recently have generally been initiated by mafia. So that makes for gumshoe, Sn0, Rayn apparently wanted in on that list earlier but has fixed his ways. Don't recall any other major suspicions on me because nobody else has dared push. Here's a tip for you since you've been so kind: it's pure fact that I am going to be under-involved from a participation level when I'm mafia because I legitimately haven't gotten over the scum-fear (akin to the way I haven't gotten over the ladder anxiety). It's just about the same tell as for Marv, filter length and give-a-shit-ness (his way to describe me rofl) is the way to go when reading me. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On November 05 2013 12:29 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh and I'm going to make this crystal clear right now. I will not be around for deadline tomorrow. I may be around during my lunch hour but after tonight assume this will be the end of my activity for D1. If people pull some shenannies and attempt to lynch me in that time, just know what it is you're doing exactly. You best be voting for Sn0 if you bailin' | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
First you point out general stuff like "Scum is under constant pressure, scum is also more likely to be inconsistent.". This is not true at all, scum are far more concerned about their image and keeping their story straight than townies are. You call out WoS for trying to look like town because scum try hard to look like town. Townies don't? Then you bring up examples but you do not tell why WoS' actions are scum-motivated rather than town motivated. Then you say this: "Why would one as town ever want to intentionally cause suspicion on himself along his comrades?". You just called you WoS for doing something you are arguing against here. That's the first 33% of your case. Next is the Van thing i addressed already. You bring up many times "this could be scumplay or townplay". That's not convincing and i stop reading an argument that says so because you yourself debunk the argument. You do not tell why WoS "defending" Van must come from scum and cannot come from a townie. That's another 33%. Last part is saying WoS does not have definite scumreads. Nobody does because it's 24h into the game. Just because he does not make a 1000 word case 24h into D1 and is not certain of who is scum does not make him scum, or if it does in your opinion, feel free to tell why because you sure are not telling that in your case. That's the last 33% of the case. 1% is spaces. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On November 05 2013 12:32 ObviousOne wrote: You best be voting for Sn0 if you bailin' The issue I have with Sn0 is him basically refusing to contribute today. Would scum flat-out refuse to contribute when pressured? I guess it's possible but ugh. I have mentioned I would be comfortable with any of those three getting lynched and if people absolutely won't switch to Onegu then maybe I will. OO on the note of contribution, what has Umasi done that Sn0 hasn't? What are your thoughts on him atm? | ||
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