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On April 10 2013 07:03 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 06:53 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:46 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:22 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:02 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 05:11 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 04:48 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 04:41 Fruscainte wrote:
I like arguing semantics.
I just don't understand why we can't call it egalitarianism, because that's what we should be striving for. Feminism implies something, at least to me, something far different than egalitarianism does.
Also, egalitarianism doesn't mean making everyone a bunch of equal grey blobs. There are clear differences between the mental, emotional, and physical characteristics of men and women. Let's celebrate that and embrace that and use that to our advantage instead of trying to make our relationship with each other something it isn't. I think we should strive for true legal egalitarianism and true political egalitarianism and them leave it alone. Let the culture define itself. I think a big problem with letting the culture define itself is that a lot of culture is currently oppressing the rights of women. How. By making video games where people save princess'? This isn't 1910, we live in a very equalized world. I think for true egalitarianism we need to accept some hard facts. The hard facts are that yes, we men do have a lot of benefits or "perks" per se that women do not have. However, on the flip side, women also have many benefits/perks in our society that men do not have the luxury of having, this goes double for United States culture which I assume is the primary focus of this discussion. Let me just give a personal example. I've worked in retail most of my life. I have the most experience with Publix. Want to know where almost every single guy works? In the back. We are cleaning the dishes, we are collecting the plates in terms of the restaurant I worked at (which are even worse in this regard), we are cooking the food in the hot ass kitchen, we are forced to go outside and collect the grocery carts in the hot ass heat, we have to stack the shelves, we have to COLLECT THE FUCKING GROCERY CARTS IN 100 DEGREE WEATHER GOD DAMN, so on and so forth. Want to know where I've never seen a woman assigned to? Those above jobs. Want to know what they do do? They sit in the nice air conditioned front area where the customers are checking out groceries or working the deli area making subs for people, also a very chilled and pleasant place to work. In fact I think the only time I ever saw a male working a cashier counter in the 3 Publix's I've worked at was when it was super busy and one of the suits had to step in and help. No girls were required to ask customers if they'd like help with their groceries, guys were. Let me make this clear though -- I'm not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY or some shit. I'm being paid a salary and I do the job I'm assigned and I love where I work regardless. I just want to emphasize this isn't a one way street. It's a give and take and let me make it clear I don't feel privileged at all that I have to sign up for the draft and women don't despite now being able to fight in combat or that since 1976 the Department of Justice has shown that men are ten times more likely to be executed than a woman for the same crime, or that until late 2010 British Airways would not allow an unrelated adult to sit next to an unaccompanied child on any flight (note: this policy only applied to males). I don't feel privileged that in Canada fathers can not apply for Federal Child Benefits without getting a signed note from the childs mother or that in Massachusetts the likelihood of a female being imprisoned for not paying child support is 1/8th the rate of that of a male. Again, not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY. We all have privileges. We need to stop pretending it's a one way street. EDIT: I feel obligated to put a source list for that last tangent there: + Show Spoiler [sources] +sources: Canada Federal Child Benefits:http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/rc66/rc66-12e.pdfMassachusetts 1/8th:Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. CENSUS BUREAU Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support - Consumer Income, Issued December 2011, P60-240. Current Population Reports. U.S. Department of Commerce, British Airways:BA says men cannot sit with lone children. The Times. Smith, Lewis (16 March 2001). Who Can Sit Next to Children on Flights? Forbes. Hans, Joshua (14 August 2012) Your correct. There are examples of men being the victim of prejudice based on sex. There is no argument whether or not globally there are cultures that oppress women. right? There are a few obvious ones. So then we want to talk about north american culture. If I understand you correctly you are saying that men and women face equal amount of prejudice everyday. I disagree. I feel that the insecurity created by how heavily society weighs a womans worth by her looks, significantly outweighs any prejudice men face. Over archingly, I dont believe its uncomon to have encountred more casual woman bashing than man bashing. Additionally there are not a group of activities which are labeled "manly" which have a negative conotation associated with them such as those associated with "girly". I feel that it is concretely true to say that our society views women with a measureable amount of negative prejudice. I think trying to quantify who gets marginalized the most when it exists in large amounts on both sides is beyond petty. I think it exists so much more on one side than the other that using the existance of the other side as justification is a weak arguement. justification Nice strawman you set up there, where did you get it from if you don't mind me asking? I never tried to justify anything. I said there's marginalization on both sides and both sides have clear benefits in our culture/society/legal system. I just listed some in my earlier post and I'd be glad to list them again. I have sources for them too, I'm not pulling these out of my ass. It's not about justification or blame, it's, as Anita put it, for simply acknowledging it's there. We can't progress to an egalitarian society without acknowledging it. Ignoring clear sexism against men because there may be "more" (however you deem that is quantifiable) against women is petty. That is the purpose of my argument. Feminism is ridiculous because we should strive to remove ALL discrimination, not just discrimination against women. Im not sure why you responded to me saying cultres oppress women by saying dont forget about the men... I'm not sure why you responded to my post about Western culture and sexism by talking about Middle Eastern countries as if I don't recognize that it exists. Of course there's a legitimate need for increased women rights in countries where they get battery acid thrown in their eyes for the "crime" of learning to read. I made out an entire post dedicated to the discussion of marginalization of men in Western culture and why equality isn't a one way street with a specific anecdotal example and legal examples ranging from the UK, to the U.S., to Canada. Yet you respond with a tangent about how there's discrimination elsewhere in the world. I understand that. I think it's a given that places like Iran and shit need to have a wake up call. Hence why I have clearly stated, multiple times, we need to push for complete and utter global equality in the political and legal spheres. However, going on rants about how the "patriarchy" because of cultural tropes such as the damsel in distress in Mario or some shit is pedantic at best. Which is what I was originally posting about. That in terms of the Western world, in terms of legal/political/etc. discrimination, both men AND women are getting short ends of the stick in their own ways and we need to stop looking at this as a "feminism" or "patriarchy" issue but an "equality" issue, and to do that, we need to look at discrimination on both sides. And yes, I do find the notion of feminism ridiculous which this blog is about not using. I respectfully disagree with OP.
I... think you have me confused with someone else.
I didnt mention middle eastern countries. and I didnt go on a tangent about how theres discrimination elsewhere in the world.
I think there is a patriarchy issue. As a man in a male dominated environment, why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. I strongly feel that women still suffer from more prejudice and social stigma in western society. You can tell me im wrong but thats just like your opinion man. I graciously accepted your point that there have been cases where men experienced prejudice for being men. Feminism at its core for me is stopping the oppression of women. Im more concerned about stopping the oppression of the sex that has been oppressed for all of history. You can say you think we need to take a step back and balance the mistreatment of men at the same time... good for you. but thats not my priority.
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On April 10 2013 07:25 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:03 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:53 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:46 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:22 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:02 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 05:11 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 04:48 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 04:41 Fruscainte wrote:
I like arguing semantics.
I just don't understand why we can't call it egalitarianism, because that's what we should be striving for. Feminism implies something, at least to me, something far different than egalitarianism does.
Also, egalitarianism doesn't mean making everyone a bunch of equal grey blobs. There are clear differences between the mental, emotional, and physical characteristics of men and women. Let's celebrate that and embrace that and use that to our advantage instead of trying to make our relationship with each other something it isn't. I think we should strive for true legal egalitarianism and true political egalitarianism and them leave it alone. Let the culture define itself. I think a big problem with letting the culture define itself is that a lot of culture is currently oppressing the rights of women. How. By making video games where people save princess'? This isn't 1910, we live in a very equalized world. I think for true egalitarianism we need to accept some hard facts. The hard facts are that yes, we men do have a lot of benefits or "perks" per se that women do not have. However, on the flip side, women also have many benefits/perks in our society that men do not have the luxury of having, this goes double for United States culture which I assume is the primary focus of this discussion. Let me just give a personal example. I've worked in retail most of my life. I have the most experience with Publix. Want to know where almost every single guy works? In the back. We are cleaning the dishes, we are collecting the plates in terms of the restaurant I worked at (which are even worse in this regard), we are cooking the food in the hot ass kitchen, we are forced to go outside and collect the grocery carts in the hot ass heat, we have to stack the shelves, we have to COLLECT THE FUCKING GROCERY CARTS IN 100 DEGREE WEATHER GOD DAMN, so on and so forth. Want to know where I've never seen a woman assigned to? Those above jobs. Want to know what they do do? They sit in the nice air conditioned front area where the customers are checking out groceries or working the deli area making subs for people, also a very chilled and pleasant place to work. In fact I think the only time I ever saw a male working a cashier counter in the 3 Publix's I've worked at was when it was super busy and one of the suits had to step in and help. No girls were required to ask customers if they'd like help with their groceries, guys were. Let me make this clear though -- I'm not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY or some shit. I'm being paid a salary and I do the job I'm assigned and I love where I work regardless. I just want to emphasize this isn't a one way street. It's a give and take and let me make it clear I don't feel privileged at all that I have to sign up for the draft and women don't despite now being able to fight in combat or that since 1976 the Department of Justice has shown that men are ten times more likely to be executed than a woman for the same crime, or that until late 2010 British Airways would not allow an unrelated adult to sit next to an unaccompanied child on any flight (note: this policy only applied to males). I don't feel privileged that in Canada fathers can not apply for Federal Child Benefits without getting a signed note from the childs mother or that in Massachusetts the likelihood of a female being imprisoned for not paying child support is 1/8th the rate of that of a male. Again, not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY. We all have privileges. We need to stop pretending it's a one way street. EDIT: I feel obligated to put a source list for that last tangent there: + Show Spoiler [sources] +sources: Canada Federal Child Benefits:http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/rc66/rc66-12e.pdfMassachusetts 1/8th:Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. CENSUS BUREAU Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support - Consumer Income, Issued December 2011, P60-240. Current Population Reports. U.S. Department of Commerce, British Airways:BA says men cannot sit with lone children. The Times. Smith, Lewis (16 March 2001). Who Can Sit Next to Children on Flights? Forbes. Hans, Joshua (14 August 2012) Your correct. There are examples of men being the victim of prejudice based on sex. There is no argument whether or not globally there are cultures that oppress women. right? There are a few obvious ones. So then we want to talk about north american culture. If I understand you correctly you are saying that men and women face equal amount of prejudice everyday. I disagree. I feel that the insecurity created by how heavily society weighs a womans worth by her looks, significantly outweighs any prejudice men face. Over archingly, I dont believe its uncomon to have encountred more casual woman bashing than man bashing. Additionally there are not a group of activities which are labeled "manly" which have a negative conotation associated with them such as those associated with "girly". I feel that it is concretely true to say that our society views women with a measureable amount of negative prejudice. I think trying to quantify who gets marginalized the most when it exists in large amounts on both sides is beyond petty. I think it exists so much more on one side than the other that using the existance of the other side as justification is a weak arguement. justification Nice strawman you set up there, where did you get it from if you don't mind me asking? I never tried to justify anything. I said there's marginalization on both sides and both sides have clear benefits in our culture/society/legal system. I just listed some in my earlier post and I'd be glad to list them again. I have sources for them too, I'm not pulling these out of my ass. It's not about justification or blame, it's, as Anita put it, for simply acknowledging it's there. We can't progress to an egalitarian society without acknowledging it. Ignoring clear sexism against men because there may be "more" (however you deem that is quantifiable) against women is petty. That is the purpose of my argument. Feminism is ridiculous because we should strive to remove ALL discrimination, not just discrimination against women. Im not sure why you responded to me saying cultres oppress women by saying dont forget about the men... I'm not sure why you responded to my post about Western culture and sexism by talking about Middle Eastern countries as if I don't recognize that it exists. Of course there's a legitimate need for increased women rights in countries where they get battery acid thrown in their eyes for the "crime" of learning to read. I made out an entire post dedicated to the discussion of marginalization of men in Western culture and why equality isn't a one way street with a specific anecdotal example and legal examples ranging from the UK, to the U.S., to Canada. Yet you respond with a tangent about how there's discrimination elsewhere in the world. I understand that. I think it's a given that places like Iran and shit need to have a wake up call. Hence why I have clearly stated, multiple times, we need to push for complete and utter global equality in the political and legal spheres. However, going on rants about how the "patriarchy" because of cultural tropes such as the damsel in distress in Mario or some shit is pedantic at best. Which is what I was originally posting about. That in terms of the Western world, in terms of legal/political/etc. discrimination, both men AND women are getting short ends of the stick in their own ways and we need to stop looking at this as a "feminism" or "patriarchy" issue but an "equality" issue, and to do that, we need to look at discrimination on both sides. And yes, I do find the notion of feminism ridiculous which this blog is about not using. I respectfully disagree with OP. I... think you have me confused with someone else. I didnt mention middle eastern countries. and I didnt go on a tangent about how theres discrimination elsewhere in the world. I think there is a patriarchy issue. As a man in a male dominated environment, why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. I strongly feel that women still suffer from more prejudice and social stigma in western society. You can tell me im wrong but thats just like your opinion man. I graciously accepted your point that there have been cases where men experienced prejudice for being men. Feminism at its core for me is stopping the oppression of women. Im more concerned about stopping the oppression of the sex that has been oppressed for all of history. You can say you think we need to take a step back and balance the mistreatment of men at the same time... good for you. but thats not my priority.
why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens.
....Because men are people too and deserve equal treatment to women?
Also, please stop strawmanning my posts. Please cite me where I said we have it "just as bad", I'm saying it exists in high amounts on both sides and to ignore one side completely is sexism in itself and completely throws away the notion that you want egalitarianism.
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On April 10 2013 07:27 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:25 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 07:03 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:53 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:46 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:22 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:02 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 05:11 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 04:48 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
I think a big problem with letting the culture define itself is that a lot of culture is currently oppressing the rights of women. How. By making video games where people save princess'? This isn't 1910, we live in a very equalized world. I think for true egalitarianism we need to accept some hard facts. The hard facts are that yes, we men do have a lot of benefits or "perks" per se that women do not have. However, on the flip side, women also have many benefits/perks in our society that men do not have the luxury of having, this goes double for United States culture which I assume is the primary focus of this discussion. Let me just give a personal example. I've worked in retail most of my life. I have the most experience with Publix. Want to know where almost every single guy works? In the back. We are cleaning the dishes, we are collecting the plates in terms of the restaurant I worked at (which are even worse in this regard), we are cooking the food in the hot ass kitchen, we are forced to go outside and collect the grocery carts in the hot ass heat, we have to stack the shelves, we have to COLLECT THE FUCKING GROCERY CARTS IN 100 DEGREE WEATHER GOD DAMN, so on and so forth. Want to know where I've never seen a woman assigned to? Those above jobs. Want to know what they do do? They sit in the nice air conditioned front area where the customers are checking out groceries or working the deli area making subs for people, also a very chilled and pleasant place to work. In fact I think the only time I ever saw a male working a cashier counter in the 3 Publix's I've worked at was when it was super busy and one of the suits had to step in and help. No girls were required to ask customers if they'd like help with their groceries, guys were. Let me make this clear though -- I'm not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY or some shit. I'm being paid a salary and I do the job I'm assigned and I love where I work regardless. I just want to emphasize this isn't a one way street. It's a give and take and let me make it clear I don't feel privileged at all that I have to sign up for the draft and women don't despite now being able to fight in combat or that since 1976 the Department of Justice has shown that men are ten times more likely to be executed than a woman for the same crime, or that until late 2010 British Airways would not allow an unrelated adult to sit next to an unaccompanied child on any flight (note: this policy only applied to males). I don't feel privileged that in Canada fathers can not apply for Federal Child Benefits without getting a signed note from the childs mother or that in Massachusetts the likelihood of a female being imprisoned for not paying child support is 1/8th the rate of that of a male. Again, not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY. We all have privileges. We need to stop pretending it's a one way street. EDIT: I feel obligated to put a source list for that last tangent there: + Show Spoiler [sources] +sources: Canada Federal Child Benefits:http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/rc66/rc66-12e.pdfMassachusetts 1/8th:Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. CENSUS BUREAU Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support - Consumer Income, Issued December 2011, P60-240. Current Population Reports. U.S. Department of Commerce, British Airways:BA says men cannot sit with lone children. The Times. Smith, Lewis (16 March 2001). Who Can Sit Next to Children on Flights? Forbes. Hans, Joshua (14 August 2012) Your correct. There are examples of men being the victim of prejudice based on sex. There is no argument whether or not globally there are cultures that oppress women. right? There are a few obvious ones. So then we want to talk about north american culture. If I understand you correctly you are saying that men and women face equal amount of prejudice everyday. I disagree. I feel that the insecurity created by how heavily society weighs a womans worth by her looks, significantly outweighs any prejudice men face. Over archingly, I dont believe its uncomon to have encountred more casual woman bashing than man bashing. Additionally there are not a group of activities which are labeled "manly" which have a negative conotation associated with them such as those associated with "girly". I feel that it is concretely true to say that our society views women with a measureable amount of negative prejudice. I think trying to quantify who gets marginalized the most when it exists in large amounts on both sides is beyond petty. I think it exists so much more on one side than the other that using the existance of the other side as justification is a weak arguement. justification Nice strawman you set up there, where did you get it from if you don't mind me asking? I never tried to justify anything. I said there's marginalization on both sides and both sides have clear benefits in our culture/society/legal system. I just listed some in my earlier post and I'd be glad to list them again. I have sources for them too, I'm not pulling these out of my ass. It's not about justification or blame, it's, as Anita put it, for simply acknowledging it's there. We can't progress to an egalitarian society without acknowledging it. Ignoring clear sexism against men because there may be "more" (however you deem that is quantifiable) against women is petty. That is the purpose of my argument. Feminism is ridiculous because we should strive to remove ALL discrimination, not just discrimination against women. Im not sure why you responded to me saying cultres oppress women by saying dont forget about the men... I'm not sure why you responded to my post about Western culture and sexism by talking about Middle Eastern countries as if I don't recognize that it exists. Of course there's a legitimate need for increased women rights in countries where they get battery acid thrown in their eyes for the "crime" of learning to read. I made out an entire post dedicated to the discussion of marginalization of men in Western culture and why equality isn't a one way street with a specific anecdotal example and legal examples ranging from the UK, to the U.S., to Canada. Yet you respond with a tangent about how there's discrimination elsewhere in the world. I understand that. I think it's a given that places like Iran and shit need to have a wake up call. Hence why I have clearly stated, multiple times, we need to push for complete and utter global equality in the political and legal spheres. However, going on rants about how the "patriarchy" because of cultural tropes such as the damsel in distress in Mario or some shit is pedantic at best. Which is what I was originally posting about. That in terms of the Western world, in terms of legal/political/etc. discrimination, both men AND women are getting short ends of the stick in their own ways and we need to stop looking at this as a "feminism" or "patriarchy" issue but an "equality" issue, and to do that, we need to look at discrimination on both sides. And yes, I do find the notion of feminism ridiculous which this blog is about not using. I respectfully disagree with OP. I... think you have me confused with someone else. I didnt mention middle eastern countries. and I didnt go on a tangent about how theres discrimination elsewhere in the world. I think there is a patriarchy issue. As a man in a male dominated environment, why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. I strongly feel that women still suffer from more prejudice and social stigma in western society. You can tell me im wrong but thats just like your opinion man. I graciously accepted your point that there have been cases where men experienced prejudice for being men. Feminism at its core for me is stopping the oppression of women. Im more concerned about stopping the oppression of the sex that has been oppressed for all of history. You can say you think we need to take a step back and balance the mistreatment of men at the same time... good for you. but thats not my priority. Show nested quote +why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. ....Because men are people too and deserve equal treatment to women? Also, please stop strawmanning my posts. Please cite me where I said we have it "just as bad", I'm saying it exists in high amounts on both sides and to ignore one side completely is sexism in itself and completely throws away the notion that you want egalitarianism.
the largest difference in our views seems to be that you are approaching the topic as if prejudice against the sexes is remotely close to equal now. I disagree.
I know men are people too and deserve equal treatment to women. Do you understand how an intellectual that believes that there exists much more sexism at women than men could be more concerned about those issues? especially when you consider we live in a male dominated society and have for all known history?
It is not sexist to try and improve womens rights. It is not being discriminatory or prejudice against men.
It is wearisom to continue to respond like this when you just completely ignore everytime I correct you. I may have insinuated your implication and attacked it. but you strait up made shit up.
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On April 10 2013 07:38 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:27 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 07:25 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 07:03 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:53 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:46 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:22 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:02 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 05:11 Fruscainte wrote:[quote] How. By making video games where people save princess'? This isn't 1910, we live in a very equalized world. I think for true egalitarianism we need to accept some hard facts. The hard facts are that yes, we men do have a lot of benefits or "perks" per se that women do not have. However, on the flip side, women also have many benefits/perks in our society that men do not have the luxury of having, this goes double for United States culture which I assume is the primary focus of this discussion. Let me just give a personal example. I've worked in retail most of my life. I have the most experience with Publix. Want to know where almost every single guy works? In the back. We are cleaning the dishes, we are collecting the plates in terms of the restaurant I worked at (which are even worse in this regard), we are cooking the food in the hot ass kitchen, we are forced to go outside and collect the grocery carts in the hot ass heat, we have to stack the shelves, we have to COLLECT THE FUCKING GROCERY CARTS IN 100 DEGREE WEATHER GOD DAMN, so on and so forth. Want to know where I've never seen a woman assigned to? Those above jobs. Want to know what they do do? They sit in the nice air conditioned front area where the customers are checking out groceries or working the deli area making subs for people, also a very chilled and pleasant place to work. In fact I think the only time I ever saw a male working a cashier counter in the 3 Publix's I've worked at was when it was super busy and one of the suits had to step in and help. No girls were required to ask customers if they'd like help with their groceries, guys were. Let me make this clear though -- I'm not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY or some shit. I'm being paid a salary and I do the job I'm assigned and I love where I work regardless. I just want to emphasize this isn't a one way street. It's a give and take and let me make it clear I don't feel privileged at all that I have to sign up for the draft and women don't despite now being able to fight in combat or that since 1976 the Department of Justice has shown that men are ten times more likely to be executed than a woman for the same crime, or that until late 2010 British Airways would not allow an unrelated adult to sit next to an unaccompanied child on any flight (note: this policy only applied to males). I don't feel privileged that in Canada fathers can not apply for Federal Child Benefits without getting a signed note from the childs mother or that in Massachusetts the likelihood of a female being imprisoned for not paying child support is 1/8th the rate of that of a male. Again, not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY. We all have privileges. We need to stop pretending it's a one way street. EDIT: I feel obligated to put a source list for that last tangent there: + Show Spoiler [sources] +sources: Canada Federal Child Benefits:http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/rc66/rc66-12e.pdfMassachusetts 1/8th:Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. CENSUS BUREAU Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support - Consumer Income, Issued December 2011, P60-240. Current Population Reports. U.S. Department of Commerce, British Airways:BA says men cannot sit with lone children. The Times. Smith, Lewis (16 March 2001). Who Can Sit Next to Children on Flights? Forbes. Hans, Joshua (14 August 2012) Your correct. There are examples of men being the victim of prejudice based on sex. There is no argument whether or not globally there are cultures that oppress women. right? There are a few obvious ones. So then we want to talk about north american culture. If I understand you correctly you are saying that men and women face equal amount of prejudice everyday. I disagree. I feel that the insecurity created by how heavily society weighs a womans worth by her looks, significantly outweighs any prejudice men face. Over archingly, I dont believe its uncomon to have encountred more casual woman bashing than man bashing. Additionally there are not a group of activities which are labeled "manly" which have a negative conotation associated with them such as those associated with "girly". I feel that it is concretely true to say that our society views women with a measureable amount of negative prejudice. I think trying to quantify who gets marginalized the most when it exists in large amounts on both sides is beyond petty. I think it exists so much more on one side than the other that using the existance of the other side as justification is a weak arguement. justification Nice strawman you set up there, where did you get it from if you don't mind me asking? I never tried to justify anything. I said there's marginalization on both sides and both sides have clear benefits in our culture/society/legal system. I just listed some in my earlier post and I'd be glad to list them again. I have sources for them too, I'm not pulling these out of my ass. It's not about justification or blame, it's, as Anita put it, for simply acknowledging it's there. We can't progress to an egalitarian society without acknowledging it. Ignoring clear sexism against men because there may be "more" (however you deem that is quantifiable) against women is petty. That is the purpose of my argument. Feminism is ridiculous because we should strive to remove ALL discrimination, not just discrimination against women. Im not sure why you responded to me saying cultres oppress women by saying dont forget about the men... I'm not sure why you responded to my post about Western culture and sexism by talking about Middle Eastern countries as if I don't recognize that it exists. Of course there's a legitimate need for increased women rights in countries where they get battery acid thrown in their eyes for the "crime" of learning to read. I made out an entire post dedicated to the discussion of marginalization of men in Western culture and why equality isn't a one way street with a specific anecdotal example and legal examples ranging from the UK, to the U.S., to Canada. Yet you respond with a tangent about how there's discrimination elsewhere in the world. I understand that. I think it's a given that places like Iran and shit need to have a wake up call. Hence why I have clearly stated, multiple times, we need to push for complete and utter global equality in the political and legal spheres. However, going on rants about how the "patriarchy" because of cultural tropes such as the damsel in distress in Mario or some shit is pedantic at best. Which is what I was originally posting about. That in terms of the Western world, in terms of legal/political/etc. discrimination, both men AND women are getting short ends of the stick in their own ways and we need to stop looking at this as a "feminism" or "patriarchy" issue but an "equality" issue, and to do that, we need to look at discrimination on both sides. And yes, I do find the notion of feminism ridiculous which this blog is about not using. I respectfully disagree with OP. I... think you have me confused with someone else. I didnt mention middle eastern countries. and I didnt go on a tangent about how theres discrimination elsewhere in the world. I think there is a patriarchy issue. As a man in a male dominated environment, why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. I strongly feel that women still suffer from more prejudice and social stigma in western society. You can tell me im wrong but thats just like your opinion man. I graciously accepted your point that there have been cases where men experienced prejudice for being men. Feminism at its core for me is stopping the oppression of women. Im more concerned about stopping the oppression of the sex that has been oppressed for all of history. You can say you think we need to take a step back and balance the mistreatment of men at the same time... good for you. but thats not my priority. why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. ....Because men are people too and deserve equal treatment to women? Also, please stop strawmanning my posts. Please cite me where I said we have it "just as bad", I'm saying it exists in high amounts on both sides and to ignore one side completely is sexism in itself and completely throws away the notion that you want egalitarianism. the largest difference in our views seems to be that you are approaching the topic as if prejudice against the sexes is remotely close to equal now.
Please.
Stop.
Strawmanning.
Everything.
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On April 10 2013 07:27 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:25 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 07:03 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:53 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:46 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:41 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 06:22 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 06:02 ComaDose wrote:On April 10 2013 05:11 Fruscainte wrote:On April 10 2013 04:48 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
I think a big problem with letting the culture define itself is that a lot of culture is currently oppressing the rights of women. How. By making video games where people save princess'? This isn't 1910, we live in a very equalized world. I think for true egalitarianism we need to accept some hard facts. The hard facts are that yes, we men do have a lot of benefits or "perks" per se that women do not have. However, on the flip side, women also have many benefits/perks in our society that men do not have the luxury of having, this goes double for United States culture which I assume is the primary focus of this discussion. Let me just give a personal example. I've worked in retail most of my life. I have the most experience with Publix. Want to know where almost every single guy works? In the back. We are cleaning the dishes, we are collecting the plates in terms of the restaurant I worked at (which are even worse in this regard), we are cooking the food in the hot ass kitchen, we are forced to go outside and collect the grocery carts in the hot ass heat, we have to stack the shelves, we have to COLLECT THE FUCKING GROCERY CARTS IN 100 DEGREE WEATHER GOD DAMN, so on and so forth. Want to know where I've never seen a woman assigned to? Those above jobs. Want to know what they do do? They sit in the nice air conditioned front area where the customers are checking out groceries or working the deli area making subs for people, also a very chilled and pleasant place to work. In fact I think the only time I ever saw a male working a cashier counter in the 3 Publix's I've worked at was when it was super busy and one of the suits had to step in and help. No girls were required to ask customers if they'd like help with their groceries, guys were. Let me make this clear though -- I'm not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY or some shit. I'm being paid a salary and I do the job I'm assigned and I love where I work regardless. I just want to emphasize this isn't a one way street. It's a give and take and let me make it clear I don't feel privileged at all that I have to sign up for the draft and women don't despite now being able to fight in combat or that since 1976 the Department of Justice has shown that men are ten times more likely to be executed than a woman for the same crime, or that until late 2010 British Airways would not allow an unrelated adult to sit next to an unaccompanied child on any flight (note: this policy only applied to males). I don't feel privileged that in Canada fathers can not apply for Federal Child Benefits without getting a signed note from the childs mother or that in Massachusetts the likelihood of a female being imprisoned for not paying child support is 1/8th the rate of that of a male. Again, not saying FUCK THE MATRIARCHY. We all have privileges. We need to stop pretending it's a one way street. EDIT: I feel obligated to put a source list for that last tangent there: + Show Spoiler [sources] +sources: Canada Federal Child Benefits:http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/rc66/rc66-12e.pdfMassachusetts 1/8th:Economics and Statistics Administration, U.S. CENSUS BUREAU Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support - Consumer Income, Issued December 2011, P60-240. Current Population Reports. U.S. Department of Commerce, British Airways:BA says men cannot sit with lone children. The Times. Smith, Lewis (16 March 2001). Who Can Sit Next to Children on Flights? Forbes. Hans, Joshua (14 August 2012) Your correct. There are examples of men being the victim of prejudice based on sex. There is no argument whether or not globally there are cultures that oppress women. right? There are a few obvious ones. So then we want to talk about north american culture. If I understand you correctly you are saying that men and women face equal amount of prejudice everyday. I disagree. I feel that the insecurity created by how heavily society weighs a womans worth by her looks, significantly outweighs any prejudice men face. Over archingly, I dont believe its uncomon to have encountred more casual woman bashing than man bashing. Additionally there are not a group of activities which are labeled "manly" which have a negative conotation associated with them such as those associated with "girly". I feel that it is concretely true to say that our society views women with a measureable amount of negative prejudice. I think trying to quantify who gets marginalized the most when it exists in large amounts on both sides is beyond petty. I think it exists so much more on one side than the other that using the existance of the other side as justification is a weak arguement. justification Nice strawman you set up there, where did you get it from if you don't mind me asking? I never tried to justify anything. I said there's marginalization on both sides and both sides have clear benefits in our culture/society/legal system. I just listed some in my earlier post and I'd be glad to list them again. I have sources for them too, I'm not pulling these out of my ass. It's not about justification or blame, it's, as Anita put it, for simply acknowledging it's there. We can't progress to an egalitarian society without acknowledging it. Ignoring clear sexism against men because there may be "more" (however you deem that is quantifiable) against women is petty. That is the purpose of my argument. Feminism is ridiculous because we should strive to remove ALL discrimination, not just discrimination against women. Im not sure why you responded to me saying cultres oppress women by saying dont forget about the men... I'm not sure why you responded to my post about Western culture and sexism by talking about Middle Eastern countries as if I don't recognize that it exists. Of course there's a legitimate need for increased women rights in countries where they get battery acid thrown in their eyes for the "crime" of learning to read. I made out an entire post dedicated to the discussion of marginalization of men in Western culture and why equality isn't a one way street with a specific anecdotal example and legal examples ranging from the UK, to the U.S., to Canada. Yet you respond with a tangent about how there's discrimination elsewhere in the world. I understand that. I think it's a given that places like Iran and shit need to have a wake up call. Hence why I have clearly stated, multiple times, we need to push for complete and utter global equality in the political and legal spheres. However, going on rants about how the "patriarchy" because of cultural tropes such as the damsel in distress in Mario or some shit is pedantic at best. Which is what I was originally posting about. That in terms of the Western world, in terms of legal/political/etc. discrimination, both men AND women are getting short ends of the stick in their own ways and we need to stop looking at this as a "feminism" or "patriarchy" issue but an "equality" issue, and to do that, we need to look at discrimination on both sides. And yes, I do find the notion of feminism ridiculous which this blog is about not using. I respectfully disagree with OP. I... think you have me confused with someone else. I didnt mention middle eastern countries. and I didnt go on a tangent about how theres discrimination elsewhere in the world. I think there is a patriarchy issue. As a man in a male dominated environment, why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. I strongly feel that women still suffer from more prejudice and social stigma in western society. You can tell me im wrong but thats just like your opinion man. I graciously accepted your point that there have been cases where men experienced prejudice for being men. Feminism at its core for me is stopping the oppression of women. Im more concerned about stopping the oppression of the sex that has been oppressed for all of history. You can say you think we need to take a step back and balance the mistreatment of men at the same time... good for you. but thats not my priority. Show nested quote +why do you feel entitled to tell me that men have it just as bad and I should be focused on mens rights just as much as womens. ....Because men are people too and deserve equal treatment to women? Also, please stop strawmanning my posts. Please cite me where I said we have it "just as bad", I'm saying it exists in high amounts on both sides and to ignore one side completely is sexism in itself and completely throws away the notion that you want egalitarianism.
Please read HP's previous posts:
On April 09 2013 13:36 HawaiianPig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 13:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 09 2013 13:03 zbedlam wrote:
Nothing is wrong with feminism.
Something is wrong with feminists in general however, every feminist I have met has acted like all men are rapists etc.
Women are not a minority, women are not repressed in the western world, there is very little reason for the hate mongering this fringe group seems to vocalise consistantly. They're not legally discriminated against for the most part, I still feel there is much to say about media culture and portrayals of women in that sense that is an important to discuss and debate. Yup on the media portrayal stuff. Legally, however, the law isn't necessarily free of systemic gender inequality either... Sexual assault cases are often the worst on this. There are pervasive, popular, and harmful opinions that often negatively impact these cases. The most common of course is that women are somehow responsible for their victimization or are "liars". Most people are no stranger to this problem. There's no shortage of pictures on tumblr and reddit of women holding up signs on the matter. It's easy to dismiss the matter as Yet Another Internet Social Justice Campaign. But these opinions are widely held, sometimes unconsciously. Worse so, they have a real and harmful impact. One of the more shocking examples of this happened in Canada a few years back -- where a judge of the Alberta Court of Appeal, Justice McClung, commented in a sexual assault case that "the complainant did not present herself to Ewanchuk or enter his trailer in a bonnet and crinolines”. He went on to talk about how, if she really didn't want to have sex, she would have physically resisted. This is a comment by a member of the judiciary. Not some uneducated juror. To top it off, the case was appealed to our Supreme Court and a female Justice (L'Heureux Dube) rebuked those comments, pointing out that requiring physical resistance means that women across the country would have to literally fight off their assailants. Immediately after the decision was rendered, the Justice McClung wrote a letter to a national newspaper stating that: "The personal convictions of [Justice L'Heureux Dube], delivered again from her judicial chair, could provide a plausible explanation for the disparate (and growing) number of male suicides being reported in the province of Quebec."Yep. In his mind, Justice L'Heureux Dube is responsible for a male suicide epidemic because of her feminism. To add salt in the wound, L'Heureux Dube's husband had actually committed suicide many years ago. It's a sensational example of course. It's not often that there is a public controversy between judges. But in any case, it's an example of how harmful stereotypes can pervade the system--even manifesting itself in written judgments. It's obvious in this case. McClung's views are so ensrhined in him that they made it into his written decision, but what happens when these things aren't on the surface? It's not so obvious when a trier of fact unintentionally disregards a female witness because he feels she was asking for it. And yet, more often than not you'll see plenty of people respond to these problems with, "Yeah but what about all those wrongful convictions of males!?" As if a) it happens as often (it doesn't) and b) two wrongs make a right. Anyway, I'm kind of rambling here. I've used your post as an excuse to go off on how the justice system is by no means perfect... but I think I've touched on what really gets me going when it comes to these discussions online. That is, people often respond to valid feminist complaints with, not a rebuttal, but a deflection.There are already a couple in this thread.
On April 09 2013 13:50 HawaiianPig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 13:23 Ruscour wrote:
There is no problem with feminism, there is a problem with people who call themselves "feminists", and in reality feminism in everyone's mind becomes what they see feminism to be, which has become a lot of nitpicking and cis white male-hating. If you care about equality for everyone, why label yourself with a term clearly favouring a particular gender? We are far from gender equality for women, but at the same time it's nowhere near as one-sided as it once was. Modern feminists don't care about men's issues while expecting men to care about theirs. Why should they care about men's issues? Did a civil rights activist in the 60s have to care about white people problems?I'm not sure how that affects the, often valid, complaints they raise. However annoying it can be when its in your face and you already know it.
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@ComaDose
I don't know that it's possible to say men / women suffer from more discrimination without further refining the area in which you are speaking. I don't have my ear to the streets and wouldn't say I know what's happening above or below me, culturally... but if you were to declare that middle class north america was grossly discriminatory against women, I would wholeheartedly disagree.
On an indirectly related subject, what's always weirded me out about feminism is that there isn't really a healthy place for men in it. I've a few friends that subscribe to some of the various branches of feminism (Which is a subject in itself... saying something like "Feminism is ridiculous" is about as impactful as saying "Religion is ridiculous" because anyone that hears it will assume you're referring to their particular branch... and for all intents and purposes Christianity is to Buddhism as 'original' Feminism is to Modern.) and between talks with them and reading some of the stuff suggested to me, I've arrived at the conclusion that my natural impulse of "Awesome! This is objectively good! What can I do to support it?" could ultimately be construed as a natural male impulse to support and provide, thereby robbing her of the opportunity to build something herself. Meaning that the actual answer for "What can I do to support it?" as a dude is to basically stay the hell out of the way and let her do her thing.
Is it possible to be a "Male feminist" without just straight white-knighting? And if so, why the fuck would it still be called feminism?
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Comparing the current state of the female to the state of the black in the 60's is fucking despicable.
I don't even got anything more to say, that's just disgusting you think it's any comparable. Are women being water blasted by policemen for protesting? Are women being lynched for wanting more rights? Are women not allowed to go to schools with men?
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Canada5154 Posts
On April 10 2013 08:09 Fruscainte wrote:
Comparing the current state of the female to the state of the black in the 60's is fucking despicable.
I don't even got anything more to say, that's just disgusting you think it's any comparable. Are women being water blasted by policemen for protesting? Are women being lynched for wanting more rights? Are women not allowed to go to schools with men?
How bout being gang raped by 4 people, and then being shamed for it by your peers to the point of suicide?
But this isn't about comparing the plight of people. You missed the entire point. Let me spell it out for you:
When someone raises a valid feminist criticism, a common response is not to rebut but to deflect. Asking women to "care about mens issues" too is ignoring the very valid complaints. There is no obligation for any one person to "care' about every single issue various groups face.
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My problem is that I have fallen kind of lock, stock, and barrel into that final idea the OP outlined, that (essentially) "Feminism isn't immediately ridiculous because the person/company/idea being yelled about isn't blatantly or even consciously perpetuating the feminist problem."
I have interacted with so many feminists that declare me a "rape apologist" because I think advice like "Hey, don't go down that alleyway at night" is appropriate. Apparently I'm not supposed to give common sense safety advice. I'm supposed to go around to men and say "Hey, don't rape women in that alleyway."
The minute I look at a particularly hazy case of alleged rape and admit "You know...it is kind of hard to legally prove that she was raped" I'm no better than the "alleged" rapist. I never once said she wasn't raped, nor did I ever say that if she was she deserved it, or that the guy deserved to avoid jail time. I merely said that the guy might be innocent, and I am condemned to the special circle of Hell reserved for rapists.
How about the fact that it's now become a social joke to be proud of your masculinity? If I lift up something particularly heavy, and even hint at bragging about it, I'm being an idiot jock, or a belligerent misogynist. Why? Women can brag about child birth, but I can't brag about the fact that since I'm a foot taller and have one hundred pounds on a girl that I can lift something heavier than she can? Women can have "Sweet 16s," but what do guys get now? And if I wanted a party to mark my 16th party like a "Sweet 16" does, I would be lambasted.
Women can brag about having their husbands/boyfriends/friends wrapped around their little finger, but if a man does, he's an abusive spouse. Don't even get me started on the idea of men as victims of rape by women. (EDIT: As in, the idea that a man can't ever be raped by a woman because he has a penis, and those things get hard.)
There are legitimate points where women are discriminated against by society, and I think those should obviously be worked upon and abolished outright, as with any discrimination. But I have interacted with so many fullbore, over the top feminists that I honestly believe I have lost sight of what a reasonable, grounded feminist actually looks like/believes. And I'm not even talking about random internet commenters/blogs. Everything I listed above is from face to face conversations I've either had with the Feminist Registered Student Organization on campus or with my own feminist friends.
TL;DR: I don't hate women (in the slightest) and actively believe and communicate that women should be treated equally with men. I believe that there is no reason EVER to treat a woman differently simply because she's a woman. I thought that was enough to be considered at least a friend of the feminists, if not a feminist myself. Apparently, I have to actively wish to subjugate the entire male population to the whims of feminists (purposefully didn't use the word women there. Woman =/= feminist) in order to even apply for passage at the gate. And that's where, I feel, a lot of the ridicule and ignoring of certain "social outrage" stems from. The vocal minority pisses in the pool, and won't even let anyone in to see if they'd still like to swim in it.
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On April 10 2013 08:09 Fruscainte wrote:
Are women being lynched for wanting more rights?
No, women are not literally being lynched, but there are plenty of posts in this thread (and all the other threads on feminism on TL) that deride the push for social and political equality for women - some of them written by yourself.
For the record, the term "humanism" is taken by another ideology; it has nothing to do with equal rights for all people regardless of gender. Egalitarianism is closer, but it implies that we are all already equal by status quo, which remains untrue.
EDIT: I feel like there are a lot of people in this thread saying "feminism is good on paper, but all the feminists I've interacted with are extremists", which is like saying, "religion is good on paper, but all the Catholics I've met are extremists" - just because you've experienced one end of something doesn't and didn't like it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility of being open-minded to the wider concept.
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On April 10 2013 08:04 Staboteur wrote:
@ComaDose
I don't know that it's possible to say men / women suffer from more discrimination without further refining the area in which you are speaking. I don't have my ear to the streets and wouldn't say I know what's happening above or below me, culturally... but if you were to declare that middle class north america was grossly discriminatory against women, I would wholeheartedly disagree.
On an indirectly related subject, what's always weirded me out about feminism is that there isn't really a healthy place for men in it. I've a few friends that subscribe to some of the various branches of feminism (Which is a subject in itself... saying something like "Feminism is ridiculous" is about as impactful as saying "Religion is ridiculous" because anyone that hears it will assume you're referring to their particular branch... and for all intents and purposes Christianity is to Buddhism as 'original' Feminism is to Modern.) and between talks with them and reading some of the stuff suggested to me, I've arrived at the conclusion that my natural impulse of "Awesome! This is objectively good! What can I do to support it?" could ultimately be construed as a natural male impulse to support and provide, thereby robbing her of the opportunity to build something herself. Meaning that the actual answer for "What can I do to support it?" as a dude is to basically stay the hell out of the way and let her do her thing.
Is it possible to be a "Male feminist" without just straight white-knighting? And if so, why the fuck would it still be called feminism?
Yeah of course! like I said earlier the root of feminism is anti oppression against women which of course is a good thing!
good picture from earlyer post: + Show Spoiler +
So yeah I am a feminist masculinist LGBTIQist and LGBTist lol who wouldn't be?
I like what you said about religion cause its pretty much what I said in my earlyer post.
Now about the middle class north america thing. It's difficult to begin explaining why the way the world is reflects commonly held opinions that may have negative effects on women specifically. I would say that a good example and keystone to start explaining it would be women's representation in the media. The oversexualized woman that appears in the majority of womens roles in advertising advocates and legitimized many opinions that are held by society. Similarly the housewife and docile home-care giver represented in a multitude of shows and movies presently further reinforce a stereotype of women. Whether these opinions are voiced or even acknowledged consciously is a matter of awareness. These things in and of themselves are not sexist. It is the mentality of the objectified woman that is sexist. and these things serve to reinforce that. This is the mentality that leads to examples like the woman who was raped two years ago who was teased and insulted by the police when she called for help. The first questions she were asked were about her intoxication and outfit and how willingly she went to his apartment, all of which are irrelevant, and would not be brought up in a less woman oriented crime. Similarly, I would be surprised if you haven't notice a not so subtle tinge of misogyny in standard locker-room banter when it turns to women. e.g. "lol bitches dont know shit" is an extremely sexist thing to say. Once you unlock an understanding that women do not particularly enjoy being viewed the way society is asking them to be, you cant watch 15 min of middle class north american television without witnessing the objectification of women.
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On April 10 2013 08:15 HawaiianPig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 08:09 Fruscainte wrote:
Comparing the current state of the female to the state of the black in the 60's is fucking despicable.
I don't even got anything more to say, that's just disgusting you think it's any comparable. Are women being water blasted by policemen for protesting? Are women being lynched for wanting more rights? Are women not allowed to go to schools with men? How bout being gang raped by 4 people, and then being shamed for it by your peers to the point of suicide?But this isn't about comparing the plight of people. You missed the entire point. Let me spell it out for you: When someone raises a valid feminist criticism, a common response is not to rebut but to deflect. Asking women to "care about mens issues" too is ignoring the very valid complaints. There is no obligation for any one person to "care' about every single issue various groups face.
To play the devil's advocate:
So he's good (or just as bad) then?
I mean, theoretically he's raising valid "male-ist" criticism, but his responses are deflected more than rebutted.
Unless you count anecdotal evidence, in which case I'd (unfairly, but still) point out that my mother beat me when I was young, and a good friend of mine has a warrant out for his arrest because his girlfriend screamed abuse (and he was charged with zero evidence for something she openly admits she entirely made up), and that more than one fellow I've worked with over the years were sexually abused by peers/teachers in their earlier years and still show scarring from a wound they (as males) aren't even allowed to admit is a wound. And that's just stuff that's happened to -me-, nevermind the stuff that isn't socially relevant or a "good story" and thereby won't show up in papers.
As a disclaimer, I won't be able to click the "post" button without feeling like an ass. I want to clarify that I'm playing the devil's advocate here, and I ABSOLUTELY understand that rape is a fucking HORRIBLE crime and one where female victims are in majority.
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On April 10 2013 06:52 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 21:21 BabyToss! wrote:On April 09 2013 21:08 r.Evo wrote:
If those fantasy books play in a universe where men and women live in medieval times and are equal, those storylines are fine. If they play in a parallel universe of ours and try to be historical accurate, they'd be bullshit.
200 or more year old "save the princess"-stories inherently can't be sexist or discriminating because they're historically accurate. In general stereotyping isn't as evil as you might belief. Our world is defined by binary oppositions, it is not wrong to like a woman because she is more feminine or because she's more masculine. Just like it's not wrong to love men or to love women. What is wrong however is to tell people that they should feel bad for preferring one over the other or that it's not normal to prefer one. Stereotyping != discriminating.
Without stereotypes we couldn't call women women, books books or children children.
That's usually a scary trap I believe people who like to say "it's all equal stereotypes are bad" tend to fall into. So yeah, the biggest issue is, that there's lack of choice, mostly when it comes to women who want to see strong hero characters, in not so "feminine" (goodness, I hate that definition) way, they are simply at loss. Maybe that is partially why people are upset at characters like Sansa in Game of Thrones, because they are always there, while the other one is not, and therefore, the Salsa-type character is preferred, which of course people like me will not like, because we like having the choice & don't want these characters to depict who we are in general.. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you don't read or watch much fantasy or fiction. I can't even begin to count the amount of female characters who are masculine (in the sense that they fight physically, are adventurous, bold, etc.) Probably more than the other side: female characters who are very feminine (would never fight physically, don't want adventure, passive). And universally, the feminine characters are shown as weak (except for their masculine traits) and the masculine characters are shown as strong (because of their masculine traits). The "tough chick" is so overused nowadays that it's one of the biggest cliches in the arts of storytelling. Can you name one character that you've seen in fantasy who is a strong feminine character? Strong in her femininity? I can name hundreds that are strong in their masculinity. Shit, the only real female character in LotR is Eowyn; and what is her storyline? That she wants to be (and succeeds in being) a warrior. I see nothing wrong with preferring masculine female characters, but don't pretend like they don't exist.
I think it's extremely self defeating and harmful towards women when you explicitly define passivity and "not wanting adventure" as feminine. I don't think the conversation will move any further if you can't see why. I think it's ridiculous to dictate that an audience must like completely passive characters. I think we should be able to expect more from our fictional heroes.
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On April 10 2013 08:43 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 08:15 HawaiianPig wrote:On April 10 2013 08:09 Fruscainte wrote:
Comparing the current state of the female to the state of the black in the 60's is fucking despicable.
I don't even got anything more to say, that's just disgusting you think it's any comparable. Are women being water blasted by policemen for protesting? Are women being lynched for wanting more rights? Are women not allowed to go to schools with men? How bout being gang raped by 4 people, and then being shamed for it by your peers to the point of suicide?But this isn't about comparing the plight of people. You missed the entire point. Let me spell it out for you: When someone raises a valid feminist criticism, a common response is not to rebut but to deflect. Asking women to "care about mens issues" too is ignoring the very valid complaints. There is no obligation for any one person to "care' about every single issue various groups face. To play the devil's advocate: So he's good (or just as bad) then? I mean, theoretically he's raising valid "male-ist" criticism, but his responses are deflected more than rebutted. Unless you count anecdotal evidence, in which case I'd (unfairly, but still) point out that my mother beat me when I was young, and a good friend of mine has a warrant out for his arrest because his girlfriend screamed abuse (and he was charged with zero evidence for something she openly admits she entirely made up), and that more than one fellow I've worked with over the years were sexually abused by peers/teachers in their earlier years and still show scarring from a wound they (as males) aren't even allowed to admit is a wound. And that's just stuff that's happened to -me-, nevermind the stuff that isn't socially relevant or a "good story" and thereby won't show up in papers. As a disclaimer, I won't be able to click the "post" button without feeling like an ass. I want to clarify that I'm playing the devil's advocate here, and I ABSOLUTELY understand that rape is a fucking HORRIBLE crime and one where female victims are in majority.
It's not deflection, because this thread isn't about discussing the issues that men face. It's about discussing the issues that women face, and it's specifically devoted to talking about feminism. In fact, your objection (understandably, devil's advocate) is just another deflection to the main discussion. Here's the flow of the conversation:
Problems women face and feminism --> BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN???? --> You're deflecting and going off-topic, here is why. --> BUT POINTING OUT MY DEFLECTION = A DEFLECTION.
If you have a thread about men's issues, discussing all the obstacles that men face, and then someone brings up, "But what about the women!" that is deflecting. In this context, I argue that it isn't.
The "think about the men!" comment is basically empty rhetoric along the same lines of THE STARVING CHILDREN IN AFRICA. Just because there are starving children in Africa doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix or discuss other issues. It also doesn't make anyone's issues any less valid. We're not trying to play the Oppression Olympics here.
That is how I see it, in any case. HP might have a better thought out explanation though.
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Canada5154 Posts
On April 10 2013 08:43 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 08:15 HawaiianPig wrote:On April 10 2013 08:09 Fruscainte wrote:
Comparing the current state of the female to the state of the black in the 60's is fucking despicable.
I don't even got anything more to say, that's just disgusting you think it's any comparable. Are women being water blasted by policemen for protesting? Are women being lynched for wanting more rights? Are women not allowed to go to schools with men? How bout being gang raped by 4 people, and then being shamed for it by your peers to the point of suicide?But this isn't about comparing the plight of people. You missed the entire point. Let me spell it out for you: When someone raises a valid feminist criticism, a common response is not to rebut but to deflect. Asking women to "care about mens issues" too is ignoring the very valid complaints. There is no obligation for any one person to "care' about every single issue various groups face. To play the devil's advocate: So he's good (or just as bad) then? I mean, theoretically he's raising valid "male-ist" criticism, but his responses are deflected more than rebutted. Unless you count anecdotal evidence, in which case I'd (unfairly, but still) point out that my mother beat me when I was young, and a good friend of mine has a warrant out for his arrest because his girlfriend screamed abuse (and he was charged with zero evidence for something she openly admits she entirely made up), and that more than one fellow I've worked with over the years were sexually abused by peers/teachers in their earlier years and still show scarring from a wound they (as males) aren't even allowed to admit is a wound. And that's just stuff that's happened to -me-, nevermind the stuff that isn't socially relevant or a "good story" and thereby won't show up in papers. As a disclaimer, I won't be able to click the "post" button without feeling like an ass. I want to clarify that I'm playing the devil's advocate here, and I ABSOLUTELY understand that rape is a fucking HORRIBLE crime and one where female victims are in majority.
To the broader point: Someone raising an issue specific to males as a gender is perfectly entitled to do so. The problem is when someone raises these points in response to issues famales face as if it is a rebuttal.
They're both valid issues to be concerned about.
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On April 09 2013 13:03 zbedlam wrote:
Nothing is wrong with feminism.
Something is wrong with feminists in general however, every feminist I have met has acted like all men are rapists etc.
Women are not a minority, women are not repressed in the western world, there is very little reason for the hate mongering this fringe group seems to vocalise consistantly.
That's some quality anecdotal evidence, man: you met a few feminists, didn't like them, therefore, your words here, "something is wrong with feminists in general."
Every group or bad broad label (like conservative, feminist, liberal, a person who identifies themselves as vaguely Christian) has its extremes.
There aren't many feminists that want to lock men in cages. Primarily, they want equal treatment across the board, where it applies. There are other higher niches though, such as women who want paid leave during pregnancy, which is obviously a more elaborate issue, at least here in the States. But all in all, they want to be treated as people first.
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On April 10 2013 08:57 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 13:03 zbedlam wrote:
Nothing is wrong with feminism.
Something is wrong with feminists in general however, every feminist I have met has acted like all men are rapists etc.
Women are not a minority, women are not repressed in the western world, there is very little reason for the hate mongering this fringe group seems to vocalise consistantly. That's some quality anecdotal evidence, man: met a few feminists, didn't like them, therefore, your words here, "something is wrong with feminists in general."
Academic rigor and care is often left by the wayside when real people get involved, true story. Even those who are normally meticulous -- you know, those who double-check and triple-check their assumptions before data analysis -- still somehow fall prey to this.
See: the department rumor mill @ university.
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On April 10 2013 08:36 ComaDose wrote:Yeah of course! like I said earlier the root of feminism is anti oppression against women which of course is a good thing! good picture from earlyer post: + Show Spoiler +So yeah I am a feminist masculinist LGBTIQist and LGBTist lol who wouldn't be? I like what you said about religion cause its pretty much what I said in my earlyer post. Now about the middle class north america thing. It's difficult to begin explaining why the way the world is reflects commonly held opinions that may have negative effects on women specifically. I would say that a good example and keystone to start explaining it would be women's representation in the media. The oversexualized woman that appears in the majority of womens roles in advertising advocates and legitimized many opinions that are held by society. Similarly the housewife and docile home-care giver represented in a multitude of shows and movies presently further reinforce a stereotype of women. Whether these opinions are voiced or even acknowledged consciously is a matter of awareness. These things in and of themselves are not sexist. It is the mentality of the objectified woman that is sexist. and these things serve to reinforce that. This is the mentality that leads to examples like the woman who was raped two years ago who was teased and insulted by the police when she called for help. The first questions she were asked were about her intoxication and outfit and how willingly she went to his apartment, all of which are irrelevant, and would not be brought up in a less woman oriented crime. Similarly, I would be surprised if you haven't notice a not so subtle tinge of misogyny in standard locker-room banter when it turns to women. e.g. "lol bitches dont know shit" is an extremely sexist thing to say. Once you unlock an understanding that women do not particularly enjoy being viewed the way society is asking them to be, you cant watch 15 min of middle class north american television without witnessing the objectification of women.
Sure, but what you have to remember is that you're making an argument that oppression against women is greater than that of oppression against men. Media also pumps unattainable amounts of machismo into male roles! Clint Eastwood and Bruce Willis are iconic "male" figures... nevermind virtually every superhero movie in the last decade... nevermind shaving / body wash / deodorant commercials directed at males often EXPLICITLY oversexualized because "that's what guys are/should be". I mean, go watch a fucking axe commercial and try tell me that the male roles in the commercial are every bit as bad (or worse) than the female ones.
You can't make an argument like "Once you unlock an understanding that women do not particularly enjoy being viewed the way society is asking them to be" without also allowing for "Once you unlock an understanding that MEN do not particularly enjoy being viewed the way society is asking them to be".
And again, I'll raise the story I raised before: A good friend of mine has a warrant out for his arrest because his girlfriend claimed that he beat her, and they pressed charges without ANY physical evidence whatsoever and with her IN HER STATEMENT declaring that she did not want to press charges. Yes, there have been rape cases where it turns out the (probably male) police are idiots... but again, you're making an argument that oppression of females is WORSE than oppression of males, and I've heard (and immediately refuted) sexist generalisations like "Girls are just like that" as much as I've heard "men are stupid"
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On April 10 2013 09:00 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 08:57 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On April 09 2013 13:03 zbedlam wrote:
Nothing is wrong with feminism.
Something is wrong with feminists in general however, every feminist I have met has acted like all men are rapists etc.
Women are not a minority, women are not repressed in the western world, there is very little reason for the hate mongering this fringe group seems to vocalise consistantly. That's some quality anecdotal evidence, man: met a few feminists, didn't like them, therefore, your words here, "something is wrong with feminists in general." Academic rigor and care is often left by the wayside when real people get involved, true story. Even those who are normally meticulous somehow fall prey to this. See: the department rumor mill @ university.
You talk about real people proof but you said:
"women are not repressed in the western world"
which makes me think you don't know much about the real world either.
EDIT: WOOPS
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On April 10 2013 09:02 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 09:00 babylon wrote:On April 10 2013 08:57 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On April 09 2013 13:03 zbedlam wrote:
Nothing is wrong with feminism.
Something is wrong with feminists in general however, every feminist I have met has acted like all men are rapists etc.
Women are not a minority, women are not repressed in the western world, there is very little reason for the hate mongering this fringe group seems to vocalise consistantly. That's some quality anecdotal evidence, man: met a few feminists, didn't like them, therefore, your words here, "something is wrong with feminists in general." Academic rigor and care is often left by the wayside when real people get involved, true story. Even those who are normally meticulous somehow fall prey to this. See: the department rumor mill @ university. You talk about real people proof but you said: "women are not repressed in the western world" which makes me think you don't know much about the real world either.
Actually he didn't say that; he was quoting me who had quoted the person who had actually said that.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8RSOC.jpg)
