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On December 20 2012 13:30 avilo wrote: So, the last patch nerfed the widow mine...what was the reasoning for this? The widow mine cannot even take out a single zealot now, nor a roach, etc.
Blizzard are beyond reasoning. They buffed the strongest unit- the infestor by adding a +1 range to it WHILE buffing the other t2/3 zerg unit - the mutalisk WHILE buffing a t3 unit - the ultralisk. Seems like we haven't seen enough zergs. To the ones who are still going to play the game: cheers.
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not build a single widow mine since patch, i dont see it worthwhile building a 2 supply unit, that gets outranged by everything that has a long cooldown, vs zerg it can still be useful at times, vs p its a joke, stellar addon for terrans =)
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On December 21 2012 05:16 madespecifically wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 13:30 avilo wrote: So, the last patch nerfed the widow mine...what was the reasoning for this? The widow mine cannot even take out a single zealot now, nor a roach, etc.
Blizzard are beyond reasoning. They buffed the strongest unit- the infestor by adding a +1 range to it WHILE buffing the other t2/3 zerg unit - the mutalisk WHILE buffing a t3 unit - the ultralisk. Seems like we haven't seen enough zergs. To the ones who are still going to play the game: cheers.
It's really quite humorous, and some people are actually surprised as to pre-orders being canceled and the community being in an uproar.
I did a small write-up on it a bit ago: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388912¤tpage=2#32
On December 21 2012 05:19 {ToT}ColmA wrote: not build a single widow mine since patch, i dont see it worthwhile building a 2 supply unit, that gets outranged by everything that has a long cooldown, vs zerg it can still be useful at times, vs p its a joke, stellar addon for terrans =)
Excellent choice on your part. You're more likely to lose the game if you have Widow Mines on the map past the early game, because it's advertised as being zone control, but if you don't have them with your army you outright lose.
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I'm kind of torn with the mine. I feel like the 2 supply is to much for a unit that has a 50/50 chance not to do anything at all. At the same time though, it's hard to judge the unit when Tanks perform so bad in TvP (play mech). If tanks were better, then maybe 2,3 tanks with 3 or so mines might make for decent space control.
In TvT and TvZ they are good i think. T/Z units have lower HP so mines are more supply efficient, but also Z and T don't have invisible detectors so mistakes in control with Raves and Overseers are punished.
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The only change that needs to be done is reduce the supply cost.
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On December 21 2012 05:43 raf3776 wrote: The only change that needs to be done is reduce the supply cost.
it would still suck.. Needs supply cost and prrice reduce
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I dont understand the aversion to buffing the battlecruiser. Especially v.s. Air. It absolutely sucks vs mutas and corruptors. Yamato also takes fucking forever to cast.
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On December 21 2012 06:02 krell wrote: I dont understand the aversion to buffing the battlecruiser. Especially v.s. Air. It absolutely sucks vs mutas and corruptors. Yamato also takes fucking forever to cast.
I'd rather have an iconic unit like the BC get over buffed than the freaking infestor .
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On December 21 2012 06:00 johnny123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 05:43 raf3776 wrote: The only change that needs to be done is reduce the supply cost. it would still suck.. Needs supply cost and prrice reduce
They need to be cheaper and more efficient that marines, with the supply of zerglings, but keep the same stats! It the only way for them to be viable! 1.5 worth supply in units destroying colossus if they hit directly…
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On December 21 2012 06:05 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 06:02 krell wrote: I dont understand the aversion to buffing the battlecruiser. Especially v.s. Air. It absolutely sucks vs mutas and corruptors. Yamato also takes fucking forever to cast.
I'd rather have an iconic unit like the BC get over buffed than the freaking infestor .
Blizzard wants to promote the NEW units they designed in WOL/HOTS. They probably WANT to see mass infestors... oh wait, then why do they not like the widow mine?
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On December 21 2012 06:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 06:00 johnny123 wrote:On December 21 2012 05:43 raf3776 wrote: The only change that needs to be done is reduce the supply cost. it would still suck.. Needs supply cost and prrice reduce They need to be cheaper and more efficient that marines, with the supply of zerglings, but keep the same stats! It the only way for them to be viable! 1.5 worth supply in units destroying colossus if they hit directly… One voidray can destroy 100 supply of siege tanks, nerf voidray, or stop theorycrafting impossible situations?
Edit: I remember a TvP where the terran won because the toss managed to get his initial colossi almost killed by a single missile turret while walking right past it, and quickly finished by some stimmed bio (yes that was a pro game): Nerf missile turrets against colossi?
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On December 21 2012 05:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 05:00 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 21 2012 04:49 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 04:31 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 21 2012 03:40 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 03:34 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 21 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote: I love this thread so much because it focus on a single zealot vs a widow mine. Like somehow doing one way damage is bad or that leaving a zealot with 30 health and still being unable to attack the mine without detection is terrible. Or that the following trades are somehow bad with smart targeting:
1 Zealot vs 1 mine = zealot with 30 health 2 zealots vs 2 mines = 2 dead zealots 3 zealtos vs 3 mines = 3 dead zealots and a ton of overkill.
1 Stalker vs 1 mine = 1 stalker with 40 health 2 stalker vs 2 mines = 2 dead stalkers 3 salkers vs 3 mines = 3 dead stalkers
3 mines vs 1 Colossus = one dead colossus
The only thing the widow mine does not trade super efficently with in a single, high hitpoint unit moving by itself, without detection. Even then, the widow mine has to be solo, with no unit in the area to respond and the unit it hits has to somehow also have detection.
So yeah, the a single mine is terrible against a single zealot backed up by an observer or Baby-core, if you don't unburrow it and run away from the zealot. Your post needs two big Asterisks *These ratio's are only true if your opponent doesn't spread his units at all **Widow Mines will overkill if you try and target units yourself Nah, it is pretty much implied that AOE damage can be mitigated by spreading out your units. And there is only so much speading can do if the mines are placed is a good spot. Unless you expect them to trade efficently when placed in an open field. When do you expect them to be effective? How do you use them, or how are people using them against you that makes you feel so strongly that they are great. They have done some real damage when placed at the top of a ramp at the choke of the natural. I had some zealot stalker pressure pretty much shut down by 2 mines and a bunker at a natural expansion earlier this week. The mines did not kill the everything, but did so much damage to the zealots I did not continue the push. I also had two mines wreck some oracles earlier this week. They take the wind out of any oracle harass since they cut right through more than half their HP and the splash also hurts. When the mines are used by themselves they are not really scary, but when backed up by anything at all, they seem to bring the fear of losing a lot more units than you thought you were going to. I feel the same way. They are more of a "part of the army" unit rather then the space control they were advertised to be. Space or area control is a really vague term that people use to describe how they feel the unit function. When people say area control, I think envision a unit that kills a lot of units for minimal supply cost, rather than a unit that provides information, damages small groups of units or delays impending attacks. If you think about it, a pylon can control space for a protoss if used correctly. It can be use to spot expansion, armies and deny drops if the protoss is willing and able to warp in enough units. The widow mine can still do that by providing vision and maybe damaging a drop on a well known drop path(think that path on cloud kingdom, you know the one). Controlling space is more of a vague term in which the player is givin the ability to respond to an army or makes it so the his opponent has to really be careful how they move. Your definition is wrong actually; by space control he means zone control. Something providing zone/board control makes it dangerous to go within a certain area. A Python will never provide zone control, as there's no reasonable threat for walking near it. By your definition every unit in the game with a sight radius (all of them) and every building with a sight radius (all of them) would provide zone control. This is 100% wrong. Additionally you really need to stop defending the Widow Mine. It's been the worst new unit in a game for a long time now ever since they fixed the Oracle months ago. Typing I am wrong does not prove me wrong, though if wishing made it so. Plyons allow the protoss to warp in units, which allow them to deny movement around the map if they make good decisions with their warp ins. We have all seen the warp in wars in professional games, where a terran send 3 marines to kill a proxy pylon, the protoss warps in 2 stalkers to counter them and so on. It is not the best area control, but it is a level of control of a specific space.
And I will continue to defend the widow mine. I have always felt it was a unit with a lot of potential if used well, in the hands of intelligent, creative players with the mechanics to back it up. I have seen it used well and think it has a lot of potential. PS: I don’t have time to keep up with your re-editing of your post. Clearly you feel strongly about the matter. I don’t agree with you in any way, but you’re entitled to think what you think.
It's actually a very strong form of zone control and is the main defense of drops in PvT, and the main way to prevent runbys in PvZ.
Offensively, "looking the pylon" game is actually an interesting minimap show where you see dots dancing around each other like dog fighting ace pilots trying to get the upper hand.
This is irrelevant to your discourse on Widow Mines--just clarification on the strength of Pylons for zone control.
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On December 21 2012 06:44 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 06:32 Plansix wrote:On December 21 2012 06:00 johnny123 wrote:On December 21 2012 05:43 raf3776 wrote: The only change that needs to be done is reduce the supply cost. it would still suck.. Needs supply cost and prrice reduce They need to be cheaper and more efficient that marines, with the supply of zerglings, but keep the same stats! It the only way for them to be viable! 1.5 worth supply in units destroying colossus if they hit directly… One voidray can destroy 100 supply of siege tanks, nerf voidray, or stop theorycrafting impossible situations? Edit: I remember a TvP where the terran won because the toss managed to get his initial colossi almost killed by a single missile turret while walking right past it, and quickly finished by some stimmed bio (yes that was a pro game): Nerf missile turrets against colossi?
The more I read discussions about Widow Mines the more I want it to be a lategame building and the less I want it to be a factory unit.
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I just wanted to make a comment on the reasons for terran buying the game.
I am VERY dissapointed with heart of the swarm so far, it doesn't even seem like a new game, just a small patch. Terran one the most "diverse" race, is easily just not anymore. With the "addition" of -Hellbats "Isn't really a new unit" -Widow mine "Like the spider mine, so really not new"
Like I would serious like to know what the fuck Blizzard has been doing for two years. They make lack luster patches, and take forever to balance their own damn game. I for one will not be buying HoTs if this is what the finished product looks like.
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On December 21 2012 08:16 VPVanek wrote: I just wanted to make a comment on the reasons for terran buying the game.
I am VERY dissapointed with heart of the swarm so far, it doesn't even seem like a new game, just a small patch. Terran one the most "diverse" race, is easily just not anymore. With the "addition" of -Hellbats "Isn't really a new unit" -Widow mine "Like the spider mine, so really not new"
Like I would serious like to know what the fuck Blizzard has been doing for two years. They make lack luster patches, and take forever to balance their own damn game. I for one will not be buying HoTs if this is what the finished product looks like.
Not saying that you're wrong--but Widow mine is more similar to a lurker than a spidermine. Just because its called a mine doesn't mean it acts like it. So it is "new" but it's also "not really"
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On December 21 2012 08:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 08:16 VPVanek wrote: I just wanted to make a comment on the reasons for terran buying the game.
I am VERY dissapointed with heart of the swarm so far, it doesn't even seem like a new game, just a small patch. Terran one the most "diverse" race, is easily just not anymore. With the "addition" of -Hellbats "Isn't really a new unit" -Widow mine "Like the spider mine, so really not new"
Like I would serious like to know what the fuck Blizzard has been doing for two years. They make lack luster patches, and take forever to balance their own damn game. I for one will not be buying HoTs if this is what the finished product looks like. Not saying that you're wrong--but Widow mine is more similar to a lurker than a spidermine. Just because its called a mine doesn't mean it acts like it. So it is "new" but it's also "not really"
Yeah, I agree. Was just trying to get at the whole point of these new "ideas" are just recycled concepts.. Maybe they've been looking at the COD franchise for guidance.. oh wait!
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Oh no! A single patch of a beta hurt Terran! Cancel all pre-orders!
Apparently TL.net's primary demographic is high school girls
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 21 2012 09:16 RampancyTW wrote: Oh no! A single patch of a beta hurt Terran! Cancel all pre-orders!
Apparently TL.net's primary demographic is high school girls
There's legitimate discussion going on here, and you want to call everyone in this thread high school girls? Please gtfo.
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Well the statement that terran gets nothing in HoTs is simply awful.
Even if terran got 0 new upgrades of units in HOTS, you are paying for the complete game. Everyone will be playing HOTS instead of WOL.
Terran players should consider themselves lucky, They dont get anything added because there are no obvious tools terran is lacking. Blizzard is obviously giving mech some serious thought, it will take time for them to find the right approach.
Protoss had NO effecitve way of dealing with Fungal / Broodlord. They also had no decent harassment unit. If protoss had these in WoL i would be content with not getting new units.
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On December 21 2012 09:03 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 08:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 21 2012 08:16 VPVanek wrote: I just wanted to make a comment on the reasons for terran buying the game.
I am VERY dissapointed with heart of the swarm so far, it doesn't even seem like a new game, just a small patch. Terran one the most "diverse" race, is easily just not anymore. With the "addition" of -Hellbats "Isn't really a new unit" -Widow mine "Like the spider mine, so really not new"
Like I would serious like to know what the fuck Blizzard has been doing for two years. They make lack luster patches, and take forever to balance their own damn game. I for one will not be buying HoTs if this is what the finished product looks like. Not saying that you're wrong--but Widow mine is more similar to a lurker than a spidermine. Just because its called a mine doesn't mean it acts like it. So it is "new" but it's also "not really" Yeah, I agree. Was just trying to get at the whole point of these new "ideas" are just recycled concepts.. Maybe they've been looking at the COD franchise for guidance.. oh wait!
As much as "serious" gamers would like to make fun of CoD, it's still the big dog of game sales much like WoW is the big dog of subscription sales. No amount of LoL viewerships will eclipse how much money Blizz gets from monthly subscriptions, no amount of "quality esports" will outdo CoD's ability to move merchandise.
I agree that Terran is hurting, and I am pained to try to find a good reason to get HotS outside of loyalty and wanting to keep pace with the metagame. But I know, much like you know, that we're all going to get HotS. Not because we think its good--but if we honestly wanted to stop playing we'd not be on Team Liquid talking about SC2 right now.
The Hellion change is good because its them manning the fuck up and actually committing to a Terran identity. Transformational/multipurpose units. If they simply stick with this theme, they will be guided by game flavor into more interesting game mechanics. (Just look at how Wizardsofthecoast does the same with the development of MTG cards)
Stick to a holistic theme, let that determine kernels of ideas, balance those ideas to fit gameplay.
Trying to find ways to "fix TvP" directly is awful. Finding ways to make Terran "more Terran" is awesome. The Widow mine is stuck in this "how do we make it work in TvP without breaking the other matches?" and all we have is this blob of metal that does not feel like a terran unit.
But I digress, sorry about that.
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