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On December 20 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: 7. It is my personal opinion that allins are not fun to watch.
FTFY
When 100% of games are macro games it is going to be boring as well. The key is variety. When a pro pulls out a new all in, I find that the most fun to watch. When things like the immortal sentry all in become almost standard, that is when it is not fun.
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I love the tempest, finally zerg is forced to do things like fast tech switch to beat a protoss army instead of turtle to a million broods and ez win. WE CAN FINALLY WIN LATE GAME PVZ!!!!!!
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I have a correction: The Dark Shrine cost changes don't realistically affect how quickly you can get Dark Templar. Gate-->Core-->Stalker to deny scouting, then place TC-->DS-->warp in still takes the same amount of time. The only difference now is you can get a stalker during the construction of the TC and still be able to place the shrine when the TC is done. Previously you weren't able to spend any gas during TC construction.
Thanks!
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United States4883 Posts
On December 20 2012 03:06 tehemperorer wrote: I have a correction: The Dark Shrine cost changes don't realistically affect how quickly you can get Dark Templar. Gate-->Core-->Stalker to deny scouting, then place TC-->DS-->warp in still takes the same amount of time. The only difference now is you can get a stalker during the construction of the TC and still be able to place the shrine when the TC is done. Previously you weren't able to spend any gas during TC construction.
Thanks!
Great job pointing that out! I know a lot of people were freaking out about the cost, but it doesn't actually make DTs any more QUICKLY accessible. It's just easier to transition to out of blink plays.
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On December 20 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: 5. The Carrier does 80 (5x2 damage per interceptor, 8 interceptors) burst damage without upgrades, and gains +16 damage per upgrade (double what the Tempest gets per upgrade). Yet, its dps is a joke. Why? High delay. The Tempest has an even higher delay. People still use Colossi in PvP, and TC/blink remains a strong tech path against stargate at all points of a game. Your pvp analysis regarding the Tempest is really just horribly wrong.
Thing about the carrier dps is that in practice it's a myth that it scales amazingly with upgrades. Unless rushed in dangerous fashion it comes out potentially unupgraded when the enemy is at or pushing 3 armour anyway. So you're actually looking at being down 16 per upgrade. Worst case (5-3)x2 x8 = a whole 16 damage per volley.... It turns out in real situations it's DPS is actually awful. In effect the 80 is what you get when you're done upgrading it. The investment in time and resources to get there is huge.
I agree with you about the OP being generally terrible. The conclusion that fungal is fixed by the fast projectile puts the icing on the cake for a post claiming to be about how blizard are cleverly addressing numbers being down. Mass fungals still the end game but now you need more infestors as it's a little bit random... Sure, that'll keep me watching...
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On December 20 2012 01:48 SirPsychoMantis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: 7. It is my personal opinion that allins are not fun to watch.
FTFY When 100% of games are macro games it is going to be boring as well. The key is variety. When a pro pulls out a new all in, I find that the most fun to watch. When things like the immortal sentry all in become almost standard, that is when it is not fun.
I LOVED 4gate vs 4gate in the era of GomTvT because toss was so rare and I didn't play toss that I never saw it except once every other month or so.
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On December 20 2012 04:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 01:48 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On December 20 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: 7. It is my personal opinion that allins are not fun to watch.
FTFY When 100% of games are macro games it is going to be boring as well. The key is variety. When a pro pulls out a new all in, I find that the most fun to watch. When things like the immortal sentry all in become almost standard, that is when it is not fun. I LOVED 4gate vs 4gate in the era of GomTvT because toss was so rare and I didn't play toss that I never saw it except once every other month or so.
I love cheeses and all-ins (just not when I am on the receiving end) but I am hating long, "standard" macro games more and more these days.
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On December 20 2012 04:11 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: 5. The Carrier does 80 (5x2 damage per interceptor, 8 interceptors) burst damage without upgrades, and gains +16 damage per upgrade (double what the Tempest gets per upgrade). Yet, its dps is a joke. Why? High delay. The Tempest has an even higher delay. People still use Colossi in PvP, and TC/blink remains a strong tech path against stargate at all points of a game. Your pvp analysis regarding the Tempest is really just horribly wrong.
Thing about the carrier dps is that in practice it's a myth that it scales amazingly with upgrades. Unless rushed in dangerous fashion it comes out potentially unupgraded when the enemy is at or pushing 3 armour anyway. So you're actually looking at being down 16 per upgrade. Worst case (5-3)x2 x8 = a whole 16 damage per volley.... It turns out in real situations it's DPS is actually awful. In effect the 80 is what you get when you're done upgrading it. The investment in time and resources to get there is huge. I agree with you about the OP being generally terrible. The conclusion that fungal is fixed by the fast projectile puts the icing on the cake for a post claiming to be about how blizard are cleverly addressing numbers being down. Mass fungals still the end game but now you need more infestors as it's a little bit random... Sure, that'll keep me watching...
80 is also the damage before either side is upgraded, or when one side is at +1 attack and the other is at +1 armor. If your point is that protoss cannot reasonably get air upgrades as fast as other races can get their upgrades, that sounds like a survivability concern with stargate - not a "myth" about the carrier. Also, chronoboost should put you ahead with or on equal footing with your opponent in upgrades - unless of course most of your army is not air, in which case this may be a problem of consistency in composition, and not of the actual speed you get upgrades.
I could have stated the best case scenario (5+3)*16 = 128 damage per volley, and gone on to say that it's DPS is actually incredible - but I didn't do that because I was assuming equal upgrades. You're assuming no upgrades on the side of the protoss (for some reason), and claiming that's more relevant across the entire metagame of PvX in heart of the swarm (a game no one knows much about).
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On December 20 2012 04:34 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 04:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 20 2012 01:48 SirPsychoMantis wrote:On December 20 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: 7. It is my personal opinion that allins are not fun to watch.
FTFY When 100% of games are macro games it is going to be boring as well. The key is variety. When a pro pulls out a new all in, I find that the most fun to watch. When things like the immortal sentry all in become almost standard, that is when it is not fun. I LOVED 4gate vs 4gate in the era of GomTvT because toss was so rare and I didn't play toss that I never saw it except once every other month or so. I love cheeses and all-ins (just not when I am on the receiving end) but I am hating long, "standard" macro games more and more these days.
Absolutely, variety is the spice of life, which is one of the reasons that Life was SO FUN to watch develop over the past year - he mixed in beautiful blends of cheese and 'standard' play and some hybrids between the two.
Also, haven't we already had the "views are down" and "here's my fix" wave come and go, is it really necessary now? Especially when HotS is ~3 months away and the major weekend tournament season is at a lull? This feels frivolous at this point... views and interest will inevitably rise and I get the overall sense that people enjoy HotS better than WoL and will be a better game to spectate as well.
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Widow Mine owns Mutas -> Mutas get buffed -> Mutas get buffed a second time -> Mutas too good in zvz -> Infestor gets buffed -> widow mine gets nerfed
Terran: Nerfed (1 unit) Zerg: Buffed (2 units)
Mission accomplished. Well played, Blizzard.
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On December 20 2012 06:13 Eiltonn wrote: Widow Mine owns Mutas -> Mutas get buffed -> Mutas get buffed a second time -> Mutas too good in zvz -> Infestor gets buffed -> widow mine gets nerfed
Terran: Nerfed (1 unit) Zerg: Buffed (2 units)
Mission accomplished. Well played, Blizzard. This has to be the stupidest thing ever written. Zerg... Buffed? Infestor nerfed, and then half-nerfed. Muta, buffed, but new units make it useless. The expansion itself is a nerf to mutas. Swarm host buff? theyre useless anyway. Terran? Bio got buffed, Medivac got bufffed, battle hellion got bullshitly buffed. Widow mine was only nerfed because it was imba, thors buffed, ravens viable.
And btw, mutas still get 1-hit by widow mines. So all the buffs are pointless. The infestor was buffed because it was nerfed too hard. Its still waaaaaaaay worse than WoL.
Oh wait. Hydras got buffed. OMG QQQQQQQQQ, because Hydras were perfectly viable in WoL
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On December 20 2012 07:03 NonameAI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 06:13 Eiltonn wrote: Widow Mine owns Mutas -> Mutas get buffed -> Mutas get buffed a second time -> Mutas too good in zvz -> Infestor gets buffed -> widow mine gets nerfed
Terran: Nerfed (1 unit) Zerg: Buffed (2 units)
Mission accomplished. Well played, Blizzard. This has to be the stupidest thing ever written. Zerg... Buffed? Infestor nerfed, and then half-nerfed. Muta, buffed, but new units make it useless. The expansion itself is a nerf to mutas. Swarm host buff? theyre useless anyway. Terran? Bio got buffed, Medivac got bufffed, battle hellion got bullshitly buffed. Widow mine was only nerfed because it was imba, thors buffed, ravens viable. And btw, mutas still get 1-hit by widow mines. So all the buffs are pointless. The infestor was buffed because it was nerfed too hard. Its still waaaaaaaay worse than WoL. Oh wait. Hydras got buffed. OMG QQQQQQQQQ, because Hydras were perfectly viable in WoL
Little fact checking for you; here's a breakdown from a random player who isn't terribly biased toward Zerg as you clearly are. Zerg, a race that was already strong at every stage of the game, got significant mid and late game buffs. Mutalisks, Hydralisks, and Swarmhosts all received drastic buffs, and fungal growth was changed to be in a stronger state than it was in WoL, though IT were nerfed. Ultralisks kill everything on the ground even faster now, and the Viper hard-counters mech to the point that even Idra, the NOTORIOUS Terran hater, is saying that mech is bad.
Bio got a buff indirectly through the medivac not to make it stronger, but only because HotS introduced three (Utralisk buff, Protoss Time Wrap, and Binding Cloud) new bio hard-counters thus putting it in the same place as it was before the buff. Blizzard was worried about drops being too strong or something, so they moved it to fusion core. Terran still has no late-game, 50% of the race (mech) isn't very viable in non-mirror matchups, and the BH/Widow Mine are more useful early-mid game than late, though Terran has no problems during the early game. In the end the Terrans not only got the smallest amount of changes from a raw amount perspective, but also got the changes least suited to what that they need in regards to the massive shortcomings they have as noted from WoL history after the absence of 2010 maps.
Protoss got a queen in the form of the MSC as a early game defense (and offense) buff, solid harass unit + spell caster (The new Time Warp makes storm undodgable, though the early versions of the Oracle were quite bad this is no longer the case), even more late game powerhouse options, and a fixed carrier (this is really good props to Blizzard for finally doing it). Despite the addition of the Tempest the Protoss air units was also significantly buffed. At this point there's really nothing from T or Z at any stage of the game that Protoss can't reasonably handle without trouble.
So yes, Zerg was buffed. A lot. And you'll have to face reality. Though they're arguably weaker than Protoss in HotS according to the general consensus as Protoss now has answers to the "winfestor/GGlord" combo in the form of the 80 damage to massive-air Tempest.
As of patch #10 Protoss > Zerg >>>>>> Terran.
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On December 20 2012 01:48 SirPsychoMantis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 00:42 Treehead wrote: 7. It is my personal opinion that allins are not fun to watch.
FTFY When 100% of games are macro games it is going to be boring as well. The key is variety. When a pro pulls out a new all in, I find that the most fun to watch. When things like the immortal sentry all in become almost standard, that is when it is not fun.
YES thank you. creative, innovative play = the best. macro games and allins can both be interesting or boring. you cant say either of them is always boring or always interesting
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On December 20 2012 07:54 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 07:03 NonameAI wrote:On December 20 2012 06:13 Eiltonn wrote: Widow Mine owns Mutas -> Mutas get buffed -> Mutas get buffed a second time -> Mutas too good in zvz -> Infestor gets buffed -> widow mine gets nerfed
Terran: Nerfed (1 unit) Zerg: Buffed (2 units)
Mission accomplished. Well played, Blizzard. This has to be the stupidest thing ever written. Zerg... Buffed? Infestor nerfed, and then half-nerfed. Muta, buffed, but new units make it useless. The expansion itself is a nerf to mutas. Swarm host buff? theyre useless anyway. Terran? Bio got buffed, Medivac got bufffed, battle hellion got bullshitly buffed. Widow mine was only nerfed because it was imba, thors buffed, ravens viable. And btw, mutas still get 1-hit by widow mines. So all the buffs are pointless. The infestor was buffed because it was nerfed too hard. Its still waaaaaaaay worse than WoL. Oh wait. Hydras got buffed. OMG QQQQQQQQQ, because Hydras were perfectly viable in WoL Little fact checking for you; here's a breakdown from a random player who isn't terribly biased toward Zerg as you clearly are. Zerg, a race that was already strong at every stage of the game, got significant mid and late game buffs. Mutalisks, Hydralisks, and Swarmhosts all received drastic buffs, and fungal growth was changed to be in a stronger state than it was in WoL, though IT were nerfed. Ultralisks kill everything on the ground even faster now, and the Viper hard-counters mech to the point that even Idra, the NOTORIOUS Terran hater, is saying that mech is bad. Bio got a buff indirectly through the medivac not to make it stronger, but only because HotS introduced three (Utralisk buff, Protoss Time Wrap, and Binding Cloud) new bio hard-counters thus putting it in the same place as it was before the buff. Blizzard was worried about drops being too strong or something, so they moved it to fusion core. Terran still has no late-game, 50% of the race (mech) isn't very viable in non-mirror matchups, and the BH/Widow Mine are more useful early-mid game than late, though Terran has no problems during the early game. In the end the Terrans not only got the smallest amount of changes from a raw amount perspective, but also got the changes least suited to what that they need in regards to the massive shortcomings they have as noted from WoL history after the absence of 2010 maps. Protoss got a queen in the form of the MSC as a early game defense (and offense) buff, solid harass unit + spell caster (The new Time Warp makes storm undodgable, though the early versions of the Oracle were quite bad this is no longer the case), even more late game powerhouse options, and a fixed carrier (this is really good props to Blizzard for finally doing it). Despite the addition of the Tempest the Protoss air units was also significantly buffed. At this point there's really nothing from T or Z at any stage of the game that Protoss can't reasonably handle without trouble. So yes, Zerg was buffed. A lot. And you'll have to face reality. Though they're arguably weaker than Protoss in HotS according to the general consensus as Protoss now has answers to the "winfestor/GGlord" combo in the form of the 80 damage to massive-air Tempest. As of patch #10 Protoss > Zerg >>>>>> Terran. Look. Mutalisk buffs were useless, hydras needed buffs to be viable, and SH are useless. Im not hating on terran. i was merely pointing out that I was quite annoyed by the fact that he thought zerg was buffed. I'm not saying zerg isnt imba. In fact, vipers are total bullshit, but im tired of people complaining about the infestor buff and saying that terran got nerfed into the ground. It can be microed out of, and the previous iteration was impossible to land. Heres the thing. Tell me why we want bio to be viable lategame? u said they buffed it to deal with ultras, etc. Do we see zerglings getting buffed to deal tanks? I'm merely saying that zerg has not gotten buffed in important ways in recent patches. And although zerg is still in a strong spot, im pointing out that terran has been getting major changes in recent patches, to deal with things it was not able to before, but has made it a bit too strong in some other aspects, and failing to hit the hammer on the nail when it comes to the problems terran faces. I admmit that i am wrong in some ways, because some changes got nerfed, but i am more addressing the fact that people think that terran isnt making any progress at all, which it is, and whether the buffs blizz implemented are fixing terran, or compensating by buffing an aspect that is fine as it is.
To sum it up: - I agree that terran is lacking, especially when it comes to mech. So why does blizz buff bio instead? Why dont we make it so that any race can get by with mass t1, and see how many viewers we get? - I do not agree, however, that the disparity between zerg and terran balance is growing in zerg's favor. - terran got buffed more than zerg - I do not agree that the infestor buff was bad. It started as "we dont mmicro/fun restricting spells" now its "fungal OP dont buff even if it allows for micro now, fixing the qualm we originally had with it" Fungal is fine where it is. - Widow mine was retarded; deserved as nerf - Vipers and oracles are hilariously broken
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I have to say that out of all the nerfs terran got i'm really confused with the raven one. 10 range is awesome and all, but with 3 sec delay, a full red warning sign on target and with no splash, how are we supposed to efficiently deal with BL/curptr/inf?
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Just wanting to say that it was a pleasure to read the OP. Finally someone who writes comments that doesn't include "Blizzard unquestioningly hates my race", "they are so clueless that it hurts" and similar nonsense. I agree with most of the comments, too.
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came into this thread expecting a neutral area to discuss the latest changes and found a long rant by the OP bitching about the changes with obvious anti-blizzard bias you point out how hard it will be to deal with mutas with mass stalker yet still complain about the phoenix buff, i think you dont realise this is a beta they are not adding these changes with the intent of each one being a small step towards being balanced there using the environment in which the game does not yet need to be balanced to be more gung ho then they were
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On December 21 2012 00:30 Forikorder wrote: came into this thread expecting a neutral area to discuss the latest changes and found a long rant by the OP bitching about the changes with obvious anti-blizzard bias you point out how hard it will be to deal with mutas with mass stalker yet still complain about the phoenix buff
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Here is the actual quote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2012 07:54 TheWarWaffle wrote: Speed increased from 3.75 to 4. Acceleration stays at 3.5.
It will be interesting to see how this change pans out. Against Terran, Mutalisks were never all that good, with Marines shredding them easily. Now, in HotS, Widow Mines are just as, if not more, deadly against a flock of Mutalisks.
Versus Protoss, this is a sizeable difference. With the new health regeneration buff and increased speed, mass Muta in ZvP can no longer be countered by mass Stalker. Protoss players may require a Stargate and Phoenix to kite the Mutalisks effectively.
New passive ability: Mutalisk Regeneration Mutalisk health regeneration rate increased from .2734 to 1.
Faster, flying roaches. Cool.
No, but seriously, this is a massive change. Mutalisks can now tank a sizeable amount of damage before flying away, regenerating, then flying back in for another counterattack, fully healed. In hindsight, this is probably what the Phoenix buff was to counter. Did you post in the wrong thread or something? Because that is really not what the OP did...
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Versus Protoss, this is a sizeable difference. With the new health regeneration buff and increased speed, mass Muta in ZvP can no longer be countered by mass Stalker
I like the new Phoenix changes, but now with the new-and-improved, mineral line-destroying Oracle, something drastic needs to change to the Phoenix, and +1 range isn’t it. complains that the +1 range isnt what Phoenix needs and that mutalisks are going to be impossible to stop with stalkers
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