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Keep the rage to a minimum. This includes wait times between games, music, and balance. Fair warning to all. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On October 16 2012 07:24 zulu_nation8 wrote: that was him queue dodging in season 1 down to 1300, played vs him multiple times in normals and he crushed face in every one. he sucked balls (haha) in the normals i played vs him and talked about buying the acc | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On October 16 2012 06:35 Doctorbeat wrote: Ouch, Toyz' criticism of Scarra hits hard. I guess that the entirety of Dig hasn't really improved that much compared to the rest of the world, not unlike other NA teams. Crs and TSM both improved quite a bit I feel, and I'm excited to see the new upcoming teams in tournaments, mostly MME.Ferus/TD. I know they aren't up to the level of AZF/TPA/CLG.eu/M5 atm, but they have a lot of potential. Guys like Aphromoo can shake up the scene if they can take their team to the top or get into one that's already there. But Toyz' analysis is very good (quite useful for a TL S2 WC review too maybe?). Quite impressive to see that the two mids he feared most were Froggen/Alex Ich, and not any of the other asian ones (Rapidstar/SSONG/ZZtai). Dignitas in general disappointed me. In their final game they attempted some sort of roam strategy, but it didn't seem remotely cohesive. It reminded me of Day9's dailies where he or someone else tries to refine an idea. At the start it may have some points in its favor, but it doesn't remotely resemble the crisp, fluid play we expect from pros. Even at the end the idea is still crude and requires days/weeks of practice before it becomes tenable. I can't say for sure how much/little Dignitas practiced that strategy, but it fell apart quickly and completely. Compare that to TPA in the finals and their execution of the 1v2 swap in game 4. They were insanely fluid and crisp. Here's a timeline: 6:55: Toyz roams top after pushing back RapidStar and taking Wraiths. Lilballz shifts mid to pick up the farm. 7:30: Stanley arrives mid to take over, and Lilballz shifts back into the jungle. Both top lanes and Toyz back, save for Bebe. 7:50: Bebe backs. Mistake follows Toyz to midlane. Shy has frozen bottom lane. Madlife and Woong head back top. 8:05: Stanley, Lilballz, and Mistake attempt a play at AF's blue. They are slightly late, but immediately shift top for a gank. 8:25: The gank fails due to wards, Stanley is now top, and Bebe/Mistake are heading bottom from their respective locations. 8:45: Toyz solos Blue while Lilballz ganks top. The gank fails but buys breathing room for Stanley. Mistake and Bebe arrive bottom and begin harassing/zoning Shy. Lilballz backs. 9:45: With Stanley now top 1v2 and Shy facing a creep wave built up over the course of the zoning, TPA takes a virtually uncontested dragon. Their swap began 3 minutes or more before the dragon play. By the time Woong and Madlife arrived bottom the usefulness of having them there was already gone. One minute later Bebe and Mistake were already back top. Stanley would subsequently push out bottom immediately after Woong and Madlife left, allowing him to freely ult top and secure TPA an excellent double kill. This constant, fluid, and timed swapping curbed Shy's advantage over Stanley and kept AF on the backfoot throughout the early game. It wasn't absolutely perfect, but it was clearly a well practiced and executed strategy, one that involved a lot of planning ahead and critical timings. It's that level of polish, precision, and premeditation that separates a strategy from whatever it was Dignitas was trying to do. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On October 16 2012 07:21 zulu_nation8 wrote: Saint was probably the first jungler to tax lanes and push with the laner after a successful gank, these two things alone are pretty much groundbreaking to jungling. I have no doubt that the jungler's progress is being highly undervalued right now. What CLG.EU does is essentially turn the game into a 3v5. The role that has the most influence during laning phase is the jungler by far, it self evidently does not make sense to give the champion who has the most influence during the most important phase of the game the least gold, unless they value Froggen's inherent ability more than Snoopeh's. The advantage you gain by having mid hog all the farm on non-karthus champions is too limited to be of use until much later. This tournament was essentially a mid-centric tourney, which is really confusing considering it's one of the least important roles. The mid's growth should probably be valued below the AD and just above top's. But in reality the better player should always get the most farm. The only tax that can justify itself imo is double golems tax by top or bottom, since it is counterproductive to let its spawn timer dictate the jungler's path, because its location is so far away from the area of control on the map. Wraiths and wolves are really the main income for junglers and the more I play and the more I watch games it just bothers me how anyone can possibly think the laner gets priority over those camps even when the jungler is there to take them. The difference in the support vs farm playstyle goes much further than simply mindset. Very generally speaking, saint's style should be more theoretically correct than support style. Of course lilballz's style is different than snoopeh's is different than cloudtemplar's. The meta right now is simply too highly specialized. The jungler pool is too limited to efficient, cc bot junglers who have barely any influence later in the game. I would love to see a team build their comp around a farmed hecarim who wrecks every lane and teamfight. Because with this meta right now, the jungler is probably guaranteed safer gold income than top, who trades constantly and is never safe and has to deal with lane swaps, etc. I think a lot of these problems would be solved easily if laners played more jungle, and can empathize more easily how hard it is to not be behind and how shitty it is when you are. I don't agree on the idea that the fact that CLG give less gold to Snoopeh means that they value less Snoopeh than Froggen. For me it's just that CLG.eu is just bad at early game, and to make them go through the early game, in order to asses their dominance in late game, they sacrify Snoopeh. It's exactly because he is really important early that he has no gold : he is heavily ganking, applying pressure on lane to help everybody farm safe and enter the mid late game in the best way possible. It's not at all counter intuitive, it's the exact opposite : Snoopeh sacrify his late game for the early. He is like the ladder clg needs to build the wall, but when the wall is built the ladder is completly useless. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On October 16 2012 07:25 wei2coolman wrote: I think this is inaccurate. They just have different type of influence. Sure they don't scale in the damage department, but the utility offered is relevant the entire game. Maokai's twisted advance is crucial in lategame, just like his ulti remains relevant in lategame as well. Sure it doesn't necessarily scale at the same level as farmed junglers, but considering cost effectiveness of how much utility you get out of it; you can't really be surprised when high utility-low gold junglers end up reigning supreme in this current meta. They are not completely useless but the point is every jungler who needs farm and classified as carries late game such as Olaf, are irrelevant given the current jungler pool. On October 16 2012 08:05 Navi wrote: Highly debatable, I would disagree on the whole. The AD obviously needs his items and farm but their capability to farm jungle and lanes with speed is on the whole much lower than most APs. Good CS in lane, proper amounts of CS when not being forced to waveclear / shove in quickly will allow a smooth distribution as with what we saw in TPA's bebe. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that mids are the best farmers and ADs are probably the worst out of all carries. The damage output and overall influence on teamfights later into the game of AD carries are slightly greater than APs very generally speaking, and often times noticeably greater. That and the fact ADs are significantly worse farmers than APs should strengthen my point that their growth should be valued more. On October 16 2012 08:05 Navi wrote: Then I believe you don't play enough AP. APs can clear these camps much more quickly than most junglers and indeed tend to hold more control over these camps with their burst than the junglers themselves (when they don't have smite, but using smite on wraiths tends to be a poor choice if any jungle objective is up anyhow). Again I understand mids CAN take the camp faster, it doesn't mean they should and the 300 extra gold a lv8 vlad mid gets from farming wraiths camps cannot be more important to the team than if the jungler who's trying to pressure every lane gets. On October 16 2012 08:05 Navi wrote: Farm on one person is farm less on another. That doesn't mean farm on jungler is bad, but you will have to find another source of income if you want additional itemization. I feel jungler farming mid when safe and having mid apply map pressure while clearing camps is a good option for this. This sounds good because mid is usually the strongest person in the game during laning phase so roaming and applying pressure while being strong makes sense. But the person who's job it is to roam and apply pressure by default is the jungler so by the same logic shouldn't the jungler take priority over buffs and gold during laning and especially during very early phases of laning? People who play both mid and jungle should understand how helpful it is for a jungler to take lane farm especially if the jungler is lv6 reliant and is not lv6 yet. The logic of pushing waves with laners after a successful ganks is assuming, truthfully, that even with a successful gank and most of the time even with getting a kill, the gold you forgo by camping and ganking is still too much and puts you behind if you don't find the additional income from lane creeps. Yes pushing makes the other laner miss cs and exp, but unless the wave is huge, the most advantageous effect of pushing after ganks is definitely providing income to the jungler to make up for lost income from not farming the jungle. After the jungle change, saint, as well as most other junglers proposed that junglers should gank less and farm more with the gold bounty and camp strength remake. However because the game has gotten a lot more aggressive overall, the opposite has happened and the extra income from jungle creeps is instead spent, and imo wasted on mids. Mids are much more farmed now than they were pre-jungle change, while junglers are more starved, quite ironic. On October 16 2012 08:05 Navi wrote: No. If the team wants their top to be farmed, they will find a way to do so, whether trading back into a more favorable lane (i.e. can win lane vs / will come out more farmed than enemy top, but midgame they end up picking much more farm and levels up than jungle anyhow) or forcing ganks with 2+ppl on the lane. Yes but the gap in gold is still closer than ever. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On October 16 2012 08:12 WhiteDog wrote: I don't agree on the idea that the fact that CLG give less gold to Snoopeh means that they value less Snoopeh than Froggen. For me it's just that CLG.eu is just bad at early game, and to make them go through the early game, in order to asses their dominance in late game, they sacrify Snoopeh. It's exactly because he is really important early that he has no gold : he is heavily ganking, applying pressure on lane to help everybody farm safe and enter the mid late game in the best way possible. It's not at all counter intuitive, it's the exact opposite : Snoopeh sacrify his late game for the early. He is like the ladder clg needs to build the wall, but when the wall is built the ladder is completly useless. They're not doing that because they're "bad" early game, they do it because they want froggen to carry everyone instead of making it a team effort. No team treats their jungler this badly when they're already behind except both CLG teams. In the case of NA it doesn't make sense cuz although hotshot is useless either way, jiji can't carry either. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On October 16 2012 09:34 zulu_nation8 wrote: They are not completely useless but the point is every jungler who needs farm and classified as carries late game such as Olaf, are irrelevant given the current jungler pool. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that mids are the best farmers and ADs are probably the worst out of all carries. The damage output and overall influence on teamfights later into the game of AD carries are slightly greater than APs very generally speaking, and often times noticeably greater. That and the fact ADs are significantly worse farmers than APs should strengthen my point that their growth should be valued more. -- what are they going to farm? if they can't clear camps, and can't waveclear under pressure, what are they going to be farming? their own lane, objectives, and lasthitting champions in teamfights ofc. good chinese teams will make room for their AD to farm by letting their jungler and mid apply more pressure at the right points, as we saw with weixiao's good item progression each game - and ofc bebe's in the finals. Again I understand mids CAN take the camp faster, it doesn't mean they should and the 300 extra gold a lv8 vlad mid gets from farming wraiths camps cannot be more important to the team than if the jungler who's trying to pressure every lane gets. --i'm not saying the mid should take them each and every time, but if the jungler is applying pressure and ever gets any successful ganks off, then his own development should not be too bad. of course if the wraiths are there and you have a fast clearing jungler like mundo or amumu there they can have it, as its simply mana / time / pressure wasted for a mid to take what would be equally or better off on a teammate. ballz still took a few of his wraith and wolf camps if you rewatch TPA's games, even in the midgame, but his successful pressure was more valuable overall to his and his team's development, as he pushed with them, got towers, and got early kills and gp5 This sounds good because mid is usually the strongest person in the game during laning phase so roaming and applying pressure while being strong makes sense. But the person who's job it is to roam and apply pressure by default is the jungler so by the same logic shouldn't the jungler take priority over buffs and gold during laning and especially during very early phases of laning? --that's why they get the first buffs. lol. People who play both mid and jungle should understand how helpful it is for a jungler to take lane farm especially if the jungler is lv6 reliant and is not lv6 yet. The logic of pushing waves with laners after a successful ganks is assuming, truthfully, that even with a successful gank and most of the time even with getting a kill, the gold you forgo by camping and ganking is still too much and puts you behind if you don't find the additional income from lane creeps. Yes pushing makes the other laner miss cs and exp, but unless the wave is huge, the most advantageous effect of pushing after ganks is definitely providing income to the jungler to make up for lost income from not farming the jungle. --not just income, experience. the efficiency of experienced shared by two people is greater than the 100% gained by a single person farming it. what i said was that jungler should farm mid, lol. pushing with top after getting a successful gank, especially if its advantageous for the laner to do so is also great for the jungler. After the jungle change, saint, as well as most other junglers proposed that junglers should gank less and farm more with the gold bounty and camp strength remake. However because the game has gotten a lot more aggressive overall, the opposite has happened and the extra income from jungle creeps is instead spent, and imo wasted on mids. Mids are much more farmed now than they were pre-jungle change, while junglers are more starved, quite ironic. --? if we are talking from an efficiency perspective mids farming when junglers are applying pressure is superior to having those camps just sitting waiting for the bounty to rise (tiny amounts) for the jungler to pick up at a later time. we see no more retarded gp5 meta in mid because the mids realize how strong item timings are and utilize them very well. if you see the azubu frost vs TPA game, the instant karthus got a deathcap frost were out for blood, and they got it soon after. Yes but the gap in gold is still closer than ever. --only if you want it to be. its the team's decision what lanes to play themselves into, and what counterjungling / earlygame tactics they go for. if they choose to play a 1v2, that is entirely their choice, and many tops (singed, nidalee, irelia from the tourney) still have the option of equalizing against higher pressure tops (such as jayce) or 1v2s and then simply freefarming. the jungler is applying pressure, and while doing so there are some rotations where taking the camps are ideal. but if the enemy midlaner gets to freefarm and reaches a critical timing (faster dcap etc) while your AP is sitting on a blasting wand, especially if the enemy is a high teamfight power (and good farmer) AP like karthus, what are you going to do in a teamfight? you cannot force a teamfight, and you cannot contest low pressure objectives (buffs, dragon, outer turrets). i personally feel junglers do need more gold than teams such as CLGeu give their jungler, by farming lanes while its inhabitants go apply pressure elsewhere and/or take the junglers camps in exchange if they are superior clearers. we see this in some of the TPA games - stanley will do minigolems on a champ like shen while ballz will take a lane's worth of farm from top and get some free damage off on the enemy toplaner and either back or continue his map pressure. your points sound okay at first, but they aren't very well reasoned out imo. you just seem kind of angsty about wanting more farm on jungle, lol. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
In short, what pressure really is most of the time, is a semblance of pressure that can be applied in creative ways. To give a very rough example, you successfully gank top as purple side, your blue is spawning soon so you head there after pushing the lane top to give your mid blue, instead of going through your jungle, you go through mid and either just walk by or do a drive by. You successfully created a semblance of pressure even though you had no intention of camping, getting a kill, or even burning a summoner. Your priority was to give blue as soon as it spawns. Better yet you can walk straight through mid to look like you can gank bot, even though again you just wanna do blue. I refuse to believe the "pressure" provided by any of the proteam junglers cannot be refined further and made more efficient, because for every second you camp a lane, you're giving up gold, and while the secondary effect of "pressuring" is validated when the team wins lane phase, the overall opportunity cost given up is always greater when the team does not come out with an overwhelming advantage through laning. That is of course, assuming the other jungler is actually farming more instead of doing the same. To sum it up, it is my belief that as a jungler, if your team has strong enough players to not lose or win lane without overwhelming pressure from you, it seems obvious that you should play a farm based style to guarantee mid and late game advantage, instead of sacrificing your growth to guarantee they win lane or snowball. I mean how often do laners snowball in competitively play even with correctly applied pressure? I don't consider a 300 cs vs 250 cs orianna at the cost of jungler cs "snowballing." | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
i agree that snoopeh's level of farm is too low. i think lilballz's is near ideal if not a bit on the low end, with cloudtemplar's development on the high end of the current fotm farmap + jungler pressure combo. if the enemy mid gets to consistently farm wraiths and wolves while you get few if not none, their first big item timing (dfg, abyssal, dcap, all powerful) will allow them to take control over lane and teamfights - few items on a jungler bar perhaps aegis (and its impact is probably weaker overall, but much cheaper as an item) can match the pressure that one of the above AP items can bring to the table. if your jungler or mid can prevent them from taking that, then it can be worth it ofc. its all about relative farm rather than absolute farm - just like the pressure that a jungler can create for his lanes can create a (relatively) underfarmed enemy laner or jungler (by forcing a slower jungler to countergank or be ready for your invades etc - see ballz mundo vs cloudtemplar shen game 3 i think finals?) | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=30259813#30259813 | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
Without know the extent of the changes it's hard to say. According to RiotStatikk it's supposed to be a medium between S1 jungle and S2 jungle. I for one welcome the changes. I personally never liked the jungle change to begin with since it shifts the jungler into a more support role and limits the jungle pool in different ways. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
probably a terrible idea though. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19571 Posts
"Buffing" it just makes it harder for the underfarmed jungler to clear and more rewarding for the already fed lanes to take. GENIUS! | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Practically speaking, the nature of multiplicative scaling is such that spreading farm out across more points is less efficient than concentrating farm on a few specific points. The counterpoint to this is that trying to force all the farm onto 1 champion tends to lower overall farm efficiency (if you're saving everything for one champion, then it wastes time/creeps when someone else could farm it), but realistically the map design in LoL really only allows for you to have 2-3 "fully-farmed" heroes. Think midgame scenarios--you've got 3 lanes and the jungle, but usually one or more lanes are pushed too far to farm, meaning that you can farm the jungle and 1-2 lanes with full effectiveness. This means that you can get your carries fully farmed, and split the partial farm in a way across the remaining team members. Putting more gold in the jungle doesn't fix this issue. It's the exact same issue with supports that we discussed in general discussion. Just putting more gold on the map doesn't change the ratio in which you allocate farm to jungles/supports--it just increase the total amount that everyone gets, but proportionally the jungler will still be less farmed than lanes this way. So long as farm re-allocation is as seamless as it is, this is going to remain the case, and so long as the itemization favors concentrated farm over more well-distributed farm, the game is going to favor 4th position junglers this way. Trying to treat the jungler as a 4th carry is simply not a practical point of view. Any strategy that involves giving a jungler that amount of farm inevitably involves shifting it off of someone else and pushing them to a lower farm priority. | ||
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