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Keep the rage to a minimum. This includes wait times between games, music, and balance.
Fair warning to all. |
On October 16 2012 14:26 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, I think people are just mis-attributing junglers not getting as much farm to some playstyle choice/metagame/jungle design when it's actually quite possible that it's the logical evolution of how the game is played.
Practically speaking, the nature of multiplicative scaling is such that spreading farm out across more points is less efficient than concentrating farm on a few specific points. The counterpoint to this is that trying to force all the farm onto 1 champion tends to lower overall farm efficiency (if you're saving everything for one champion, then it wastes time/creeps when someone else could farm it), but realistically the map design in LoL really only allows for you to have 2-3 "fully-farmed" heroes. Think midgame scenarios--you've got 3 lanes and the jungle, but usually one or more lanes are pushed too far to farm, meaning that you can farm the jungle and 1-2 lanes with full effectiveness. This means that you can get your carries fully farmed, and split the partial farm in a way across the remaining team members.
Putting more gold in the jungle doesn't fix this issue. It's the exact same issue with supports that we discussed in general discussion. Just putting more gold on the map doesn't change the ratio in which you allocate farm to jungles/supports--it just increase the total amount that everyone gets, but proportionally the jungler will still be less farmed than lanes this way. So long as farm re-allocation is as seamless as it is, this is going to remain the case, and so long as the itemization favors concentrated farm over more well-distributed farm, the game is going to favor 4th position junglers this way.
Trying to treat the jungler as a 4th carry is simply not a practical point of view. Any strategy that involves giving a jungler that amount of farm inevitably involves shifting it off of someone else and pushing them to a lower farm priority.
Yea, this is why a jungle remake to harder to kill camps may actually exacerbate the problem of low farm jungles. They literally may not be able to get a 1st clear without backing while still going boots (or be too low to gank after the clear). Then, if they don't jungle constantly they get too far behind in levels and items to even farm the jungle anymore...
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United States47024 Posts
I actually think there's a little bit of irony in how this has worked out. Riot introduced the concept of AP and caster scaling damage stats in order to encourage more farm distribution towards casters and positions 3-5 which, historically in DotA tended to be heavily underfarmed compared to carries. What resulted is the "AP carry" role that pretty much demands that any team composition have a secondary carry that requires significant farm just like your first position physical carry. This results in 3rd-5th position heroes being even MORE gold starved in LoL than in DotA, because LoL's design requires farm on that AP secondary damage point.
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What they need to make is strong support items, that itemizes terribly for "carries", but itemize fucking amazingly for jungler and supports/
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On October 16 2012 14:26 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, I think people are just mis-attributing junglers not getting as much farm to some playstyle choice/metagame/jungle design when it's actually quite possible that it's the logical evolution of how the game is played.
Practically speaking, the nature of multiplicative scaling is such that spreading farm out across more points is less efficient than concentrating farm on a few specific points. The counterpoint to this is that trying to force all the farm onto 1 champion tends to lower overall farm efficiency (if you're saving everything for one champion, then it wastes time/creeps when someone else could farm it), but realistically the map design in LoL really only allows for you to have 2-3 "fully-farmed" heroes. Think midgame scenarios--you've got 3 lanes and the jungle, but usually one or more lanes are pushed too far to farm, meaning that you can farm the jungle and 1-2 lanes with full effectiveness. This means that you can get your carries fully farmed, and split the partial farm in a way across the remaining team members.
Putting more gold in the jungle doesn't fix this issue. It's the exact same issue with supports that we discussed in general discussion. Just putting more gold on the map doesn't change the ratio in which you allocate farm to jungles/supports--it just increase the total amount that everyone gets, but proportionally the jungler will still be less farmed than lanes this way. So long as farm re-allocation is as seamless as it is, this is going to remain the case, and so long as the itemization favors concentrated farm over more well-distributed farm, the game is going to favor 4th position junglers this way.
Trying to treat the jungler as a 4th carry is simply not a practical point of view. Any strategy that involves giving a jungler that amount of farm inevitably involves shifting it off of someone else and pushing them to a lower farm priority.
If farm is as seamlessly allocatable as you say, then to a large extent it is a metagame/playstyle choice to put the jungler in 4th position. There are junglers with the necessary scaling to carry, they simply need the farm to shine. There are reasons we do not do so now, but those reasons are not immutable or incontestable.
Assuming you are correct about the fluidity of farm allocation, I expect the current "sacrificial lamb" style of jungling will eventually change with or without intervention from Riot.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2012 15:01 Seuss wrote:
If farm as as seamlessly allocatable as you say, then to a large extent it is a metagame/playstyle choice to put the jungler in 4th position. There are junglers with the necessary scaling to carry, they simply need the farm to shine. There are reasons we do not do so now, but those reasons are not immutable or incontestable.
Assuming you are correct about the fluidity of farm allocation, I expect the current "sacrificial lamb" style of jungling will eventually change with or without intervention from Riot.
I agree with you on this. The only thing I'll point out is that having junglers shift up as far as 1st/2nd position is extremely unlikely due to other factors (that in and of themselves are gameplay issues) that essentially require those positions to be ranged. A ranged AD and a ranged AP are going to be the most powerful and practical 1st/2nd position heroes due to the awkwardness of melee carry itemization/teamfighting/etc. The issue of melee carry/ranged carry balance is in and of itself its own issue (and one that's existed since LoL's beta), but for now, the fact that virtually all junglers are melee and 1st/2nd position must be ranged essentially means the greatest role mobility junglers have are swapping 3rd/4th position with the top laner.
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If they put more gold into the jungle that the more carry type junglers(nocturne, shyv, olaf etc) who can clear faster can get a significant amount more gold than currently(somewhere around 20-30% more, enough that they CAN get farmed out of the jungle), while the more supporty junglers get roughly the same as before(albeit with a more hairy start), then I think they'll have succeeded. I for one don't actually think that mids taking all the wraith spawns past 5 min because the other guy does the same is healthy for jungler variety. Make wraiths hard enough that soloing early is much more punishing.
I don't think the jungler is ever going to make it into 1/2 position, but right now carry junglers are a rough spot because there's just not enough gold in the jungle to ever do large amounts of damage while being tanky without kills.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2012 15:29 Amui wrote:
If they put more gold into the jungle that the more carry type junglers(nocturne, shyv, olaf etc) who can clear faster can get a significant amount more gold than currently(somewhere around 20-30% more, enough that they CAN get farmed out of the jungle), while the more supporty junglers get roughly the same as before(albeit with a more hairy start), then I think they'll have succeeded. I for one don't actually think that mids taking all the wraith spawns past 5 min because the other guy does the same is healthy for jungler variety. Make wraiths hard enough that soloing early is much more punishing.
That doesn't solve the problem. So long as there's no long-term incentive to having a farmed jungler over having a more farmed AP/AD, all putting more farm in the jungle means is that teams will be less likely to give junglers the chance to clean up lane farm later, because they got as farmed as they need to be out of jungle farm.
As I said in relation to supports, putting more gold into the game doesn't solve anything. You have to give teams a reason to WANT farm on their jungler/support, not just put more farm for them to have.
On October 16 2012 15:29 Amui wrote:
I don't think the jungler is ever going to make it into 1/2 position, but right now carry junglers are a rough spot because there's just not enough gold in the jungle to ever do large amounts of damage while being tanky without kills.
I don't think "not enough gold in the jungle" has ever been an argument for this. The vast majority of farm in the game comes from post laning-phase farm (particularly given how many of the games at World Champs had very short laning phases, and moved into the teamfight/objective-taking phase rather quickly). If a jungler needs that farm to function, then a team can simply allocate them enough post-laning farm from pushed lanes, etc. to make up for the lack of farm in the jungle.
The problem is that simply having farm spread across 4 points (AD, AP, Jungle, Top) simply isn't as compelling as having it spread across 2-3. Jungle/top have some interchangeability (particularly as the champ pools across both roles overlap a fair bit) that hasn't been fully explored, but for the most part, it's hard to find a jungler who's farm demand warrants sacrificing an AP/AD's development.
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Remove GP10 items from the game. Problem solved. Seriously.
Then it really becomes a balance of choice... farm or gank.
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On October 16 2012 15:59 foxmeep wrote:
Remove GP10 items from the game. Problem solved. Seriously.
Then it really becomes a balance of choice... farm or gank.
That really wouldn't do anything. Gold items don't really generate that much gold for them to be that significant. All you'd be doing is punishing 4-5 position much more heavily without really influencing gameplay all that much imo. It will still be more optimal to let mid take Wraiths maybe wolves. It'll still be more optimal to let top/bot take mini golems when they need it. All that will happen is 4-5 position champs just get poorer. That's about it. Gold items provide just enough income for supports to have a steady stream of wards while still letting them be semi-relevant by padding their stats a bit. Gold items on junglers are a product of convenience; they get philo because of shurelias and they get hog because of randuins. Even if you remove the gold generation they will still get those items; just maybe not as early.
Ganking at the highest level is more about applying pressure to lanes to disrupt their farm - not so much getting kills. In the WC, almost all kills in lane are results of 1v1s, counter-ganks, or tower dives. There were very very few kills off of 2v1 ganks (or 3v2 bot lane). The reason is because wards and map awareness is so prevalent at that level that being able to get ganks off is just too hard. All you can hope for is to force the enemy laner off the creep wave or to play more cautiously.
This essentially means that ganking as a source of income for junglers simply isn't reliable or feasible. The only real way they get significant amounts of gold is forcing objectives or farming what little of the jungle they can get. So if you remove gold items, that won't really change much.
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On October 16 2012 15:29 Amui wrote:
If they put more gold into the jungle that the more carry type junglers(nocturne, shyv, olaf etc) who can clear faster can get a significant amount more gold than currently(somewhere around 20-30% more, enough that they CAN get farmed out of the jungle), while the more supporty junglers get roughly the same as before(albeit with a more hairy start), then I think they'll have succeeded. I for one don't actually think that mids taking all the wraith spawns past 5 min because the other guy does the same is healthy for jungler variety. Make wraiths hard enough that soloing early is much more punishing.
I don't think the jungler is ever going to make it into 1/2 position, but right now carry junglers are a rough spot because there's just not enough gold in the jungle to ever do large amounts of damage while being tanky without kills.
Unless jungle farm is potentially higher than lane farm (I think that DotA has the potential for Jungle farm exceeding lane farm in some scenarios) that doesn't change a bunch of things that favor the ganking meta. First a gank kill is worth ~20+ CS plus the EXP plus the enemy teams lost EXP and Farm.
On October 16 2012 16:22 Ryuu314 wrote:
Ganking at the highest level is more about applying pressure to lanes to disrupt their farm - not so much getting kills. In the WC, almost all kills in lane are results of 1v1s, counter-ganks, or tower dives. There were very very few kills off of 2v1 ganks (or 3v2 bot lane). The reason is because wards and map awareness is so prevalent at that level that being able to get ganks off is just too hard. All you can hope for is to force the enemy laner off the creep wave or to play more cautiously.
Like I said, the lost farm and EXP for the enemy is very strong.
Also unless jungle farm > lane farm, the jungle will have less EXP and less gold than the lanes, meaning the lane champs can clear faster than the jungle. They said something about jungle-items that could change this, but do we really want jungles to be able to buy gimped items that are good for clearing the jungle...so they can then buy more gimped items good for clearing the jungle? We had wriggles but it was too good so now its a niche item post nerfs.
Lastly, it seems like the earlygame jungle is really the problem atm that limits jungle diversity so I don't know how making that harder helps things.
Edit:
Even more lastly, Riot's remakes, new champs, and balance changes should leave almost no one with any confidence that they know what they are doing.
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On October 16 2012 14:48 wei2coolman wrote:
What they need to make is strong support items, that itemizes terribly for "carries", but itemize fucking amazingly for jungler and supports/
One way to do this would be to have items which take up multiple slots, and can only be sold for a poor return.
Or items with disadvantages. Imagine something which gave a huge plus to your attack damage, but meant after each attack you were rooted for 1 second. Would be interesting to play around with.
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On October 16 2012 16:46 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 15:29 Amui wrote:
If they put more gold into the jungle that the more carry type junglers(nocturne, shyv, olaf etc) who can clear faster can get a significant amount more gold than currently(somewhere around 20-30% more, enough that they CAN get farmed out of the jungle), while the more supporty junglers get roughly the same as before(albeit with a more hairy start), then I think they'll have succeeded. I for one don't actually think that mids taking all the wraith spawns past 5 min because the other guy does the same is healthy for jungler variety. Make wraiths hard enough that soloing early is much more punishing.
I don't think the jungler is ever going to make it into 1/2 position, but right now carry junglers are a rough spot because there's just not enough gold in the jungle to ever do large amounts of damage while being tanky without kills. Unless jungle farm is potentially higher than lane farm (I think that DotA has the potential for Jungle farm exceeding lane farm in some scenarios) that doesn't change a bunch of things that favor the ganking meta. First a gank kill is worth ~20+ CS plus the EXP plus the enemy teams lost EXP and Farm.
There are several reasons of why this won't work and might become a big problem. Assume jungle farm >>> lane farm.
First of all mid is probably going to sacrifice lane farm even more in order to get to wraith/wolves in order to win lane. The jungler will probably be asked to stall in mid in the meantime.
Small golems can even become a balance problem, because suddenly the potential farm that the carry on one side can achieve is inherently larger than on the other side by consistently taking small golems. Again the jungler will most likely have to "help" while not getting any money while the support stalls the lane.
Yango is right that by changing the gold values you don't necessarily change priorities, so unless the meta shifts, people will just adapt and continue to "screw over" the jungler for their own progress.
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On October 16 2012 23:00 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 16:46 cLutZ wrote:On October 16 2012 15:29 Amui wrote:
If they put more gold into the jungle that the more carry type junglers(nocturne, shyv, olaf etc) who can clear faster can get a significant amount more gold than currently(somewhere around 20-30% more, enough that they CAN get farmed out of the jungle), while the more supporty junglers get roughly the same as before(albeit with a more hairy start), then I think they'll have succeeded. I for one don't actually think that mids taking all the wraith spawns past 5 min because the other guy does the same is healthy for jungler variety. Make wraiths hard enough that soloing early is much more punishing.
I don't think the jungler is ever going to make it into 1/2 position, but right now carry junglers are a rough spot because there's just not enough gold in the jungle to ever do large amounts of damage while being tanky without kills. Unless jungle farm is potentially higher than lane farm (I think that DotA has the potential for Jungle farm exceeding lane farm in some scenarios) that doesn't change a bunch of things that favor the ganking meta. First a gank kill is worth ~20+ CS plus the EXP plus the enemy teams lost EXP and Farm. There are several reasons of why this won't work and might become a big problem. Assume jungle farm >>> lane farm. First of all mid is probably going to sacrifice lane farm even more in order to get to wraith/wolves in order to win lane. The jungler will probably be asked to stall in mid in the meantime. Small golems can even become a balance problem, because suddenly the potential farm that the carry on one side can achieve is inherently larger than on the other side by consistently taking small golems. Again the jungler will most likely have to "help" while not getting any money while the support stalls the lane. Yango is right that by changing the gold values you don't necessarily change priorities, so unless the meta shifts, people will just adapt and continue to "screw over" the jungler for their own progress.
Well my point was that you need a whole jungle remake to actually have the changes in jungle playstyle that Riot seems to want. First of all the Purple-Blue Disparity clearly should be rectified. Secondly the jungle routes could be adjusted to lower downtime, maybe adding extra spawn point or lowering spawn CDs. And, of course if they managed to make toplane less snowbally that would significantly reduce the incentive to camp top.
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Yet another reason, that I dont think has been discussed yet, for the emergence of support style jungles was the constant nerfs to common tankydps/bruiser jungles that were popular by the end of S1 and the beginning of S2 (Lee, GP, noct, shyv, mundo, ect.). Not only were many of these popular characters directly nerfed, but so was their itemization; wriggles, warmogs, atmas, and wits have all been hit recently too. And, of course, there is the power and mobility creep with the new releases that effects many of the old designs.
At one time, having two bruiser types on a team made your team's mid / late game just that much stronger, as these champs were significantly more relevant than they are now. Unfortunately, with Riot's rebalance of tanky-dps types, they have shoehorned support/tank jungles as the only acceptable option now.
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Maybe increasing the exp for assists will help junglers.
From the wiki: Assists: A champion is given an assist after damaging an enemy champion that is then killed within 10 seconds. A champion granted an assist will evenly split the total experience reward for killing the enemy champion with all other players that received an assist or landed the killing blow or are within 1600 range of the killing blow.
So if you get an assist or even the kill on a lane, you will always share the exp with the laner.
Let's say you get a lvl 2 gank off on top whilst the opponent is still lvl 1. You and your top will share 210 exp (75% of 280). So as the jungler, you get 105 exp. Which is the same amount as killing a big wraith (Less than big wolf/golem). Unless you get exp from the creeps in lane, you will be better off in terms of levels just by farming your jungle.
Maybe they could increase the amount of exp from a kill if it is shared? The individual exp should still be lower than that of a solo kill, but a bit of an increase would both promote early game aggressiveness and help out the more assassin type junglers, or am I wrong?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2012 16:46 cLutZ wrote:
Unless jungle farm is potentially higher than lane farm (I think that DotA has the potential for Jungle farm exceeding lane farm in some scenarios) that doesn't change a bunch of things that favor the ganking meta. First a gank kill is worth ~20+ CS plus the EXP plus the enemy teams lost EXP and Farm.
The DotA jungle doesn't just have more gold, it's also just bigger. This is, even with mid stealing the small camp and short lane pulling the pull camp every time they're available, the remaining 3 camps still take a lion's share of the jungler's time to clear repeatedly. Whereas if mid/sidelane took golems/wraiths on every CD, the jungler would have only 1 camp left in LoL.
Creating that in LoL would require a complete map overhaul.
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Also the whole creep pulling dynamic means you can actually pseudo jungle with supports that you put in a trilane so they still get exp and gold. You can't really compare the two jungles at all I feel.
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On October 17 2012 05:25 Numy wrote:
Also the whole creep pulling dynamic means you can actually pseudo jungle with supports that you put in a trilane so they still get exp and gold. You can't really compare the two jungles at all I feel.
I wasn't trying to (mostly because I have rubbish Dota knowledge). My point was that for junglers to have a reason to be in the jungle and dissuade laners from "stealing" small camps, the jungler has to be able to have "carry" farm from the jungle. Its not very useful to force the junglers out of lanes and into the jungle if the jungler is just going to be 50-80% of a laner anyways. Better to have 3 110% laners and one 65% jungler than 3 100% laners and one 80% jungle (percentages made up arbitrarily). But if the choice is between 4 100% champs and 3 110% champs + 65% champ then you have a real choice to make.
The whole point is, of course, that Riot cannot have the jungle meta it seems to want without a Major jungle overhaul, not simply buffing the camps damage, hp, gold, and exp.
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On October 17 2012 05:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 16:46 cLutZ wrote:
Unless jungle farm is potentially higher than lane farm (I think that DotA has the potential for Jungle farm exceeding lane farm in some scenarios) that doesn't change a bunch of things that favor the ganking meta. First a gank kill is worth ~20+ CS plus the EXP plus the enemy teams lost EXP and Farm. The DotA jungle doesn't just have more gold, it's also just bigger. This is, even with mid stealing the small camp and short lane pulling the pull camp every time they're available, the remaining 3 camps still take a lion's share of the jungler's time to clear repeatedly. Whereas if mid/sidelane took golems/wraiths on every CD, the jungler would have only 1 camp left in LoL. Creating that in LoL would require a complete map overhaul.
I think a map overhaul is needed, I think the minimal ganking routes, the small jungle and the way the game currently works, we won't ever see a significant meta different from the current one with 1 ADC, 1 AP, 1 top, 1 jungle, 1 support. I would love to see more than one way too differ from that right now we have 1 guy roams, and leave adc bot, and it hasn't been entirely successful, and we've seen the roles just swap lanes too throw off their opponents. This means all the variance we get is confined to those roles, we can get a poke comp if the champs line up with those roles, and we can get a team fight aoe comp, but they need to line up with those roles. If Riot's new direction is to lock these roles in place that makes me kind of disappointed. I was hoping we could see all sorts of different line ups in the future.
I did enjoy the higher amount of action during the s2 finals, I feel like that is a good direction for the game, at least as far as I'm concerned, I felt like most games I've watched were rather dull farm fests before these championships, but I haven't been watching a ton of LoL.
On jungle/support items being OP on everyone else, just imagine what they thought Locket would be used for, mostly a support role, and then it carried games for everyone, those of us that played during it's time.. yeah that item lol..
The itemization in LoL is really boring too me. My favorite item is by far Zhonyas, it can have a big impact on the game if used correctly, but i have to play AP too get it. I like randuins but it's animation isn't that great, needs a cooler animation. . Shurelyas I felt is well designed, and has pretty cool ability, and a good way to build in to it for a support, so they should have more items that are comparable to shurelyas for supports.
I think you mentioned earlier, but melee carries need some new items. I like AD ranged carries but would be cool to see melee get some love.
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United States47024 Posts
Shurelya's would be the perfect item if it built from Doran's Blade instead of Philo Stone huehuehue
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