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Keep the rage to a minimum. This includes wait times between games, music, and balance.
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On October 16 2012 01:51 AsnSensation wrote:
interesting ap mid evaluations from Toyz there, was especially surprised about the his opinion on scarra, pls translate the last three especially since I was reading this I was anticipating Froggen Alex ich and Rapidstar the most haha
On October 16 2012 01:15 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
toyz facebook comment on the 12 AP mid players in S2. i took the liberty of translating them for you kiddies
以下是一篇關於參加S2大賽12支隊伍的中路玩家分析，排名不分先後。
below is the list of s2 ap mid players, not in order of ranking
SAJ_NIXWATER - 雖然他沒有頂尖的對線技巧，但是為什麼他們能夠取得S2的資格甚至打敗DIG多抱2萬5獎金回家？原因在於他們隊伍了解到自己隊伍的缺點找到最適合他們的META，雙中。這個META讓他們把缺點都藏起來了，迫使對手需要重新適應整個遊戲風格。
although he doesn't have peak mechanical skills, how is it that they were able to obtain the right of entry to the S2 finals and even beat dignitas to take an extra 25k home? the reason lies in the fact that their team understands their own weaknesses and found a suitable meta that fits them, duo mid ~ this meta lets them hide their weaknesses, forcing their opponents to readjust their gameplay
SK_ocelote - 對線技巧不錯，但是不足以在世界頂尖選手中取得優勢，也是一位喜歡在6級前遊走GANK的中路選手。年代的過去，他的蛇女再也沒辦法在舞台上壓制對手，球女在S2資格賽對上CLG.EU曝光，小組賽再也選不到。簡單來說是在這次比賽自信的角色並沒有很多。
decent mechanics, but not enough to overpower anyone among the world's best, and also someone who likes to gank pre-6. times have changed, and his cass can no longer suppress the opponent. his ori showed a flash of brilliance against CLG.EU in the qualifiers, and he's no longer able to play it in the playoffs. basically, not many ap mid champs that he's confident of this tournament
CLG_Bigfatlp - 曾經第一季的神，遇誰壓遇，怎麼打怎麼嬴。第二季的到來，我也不知道到底是jiji退步了，還是其他選手慢慢的跟上腳步，相比起來他跟世界頂尖的選手對線技巧比起來稍微有點不足，導致小組賽中路都拿不到太大的優勢。振作阿JIJI!
was once the season 1 god, fucks who he sees, wins however he plays. around comes season 2, and i dont know if it's jiji that has deproved, or it's just the other AP mids who have caught up. comparatively, his mechanics are a little lacking compared to the world's best AP mids, caushing him to not be able to obtain any advantage from the mid lane during the playoffs. get your shit together jiji!
iG_Zz1tai - 擁有一流的打線技巧，喜歡用雪球角色，例如蛇女，斯溫等等角色。跑線能力偏低，因為他喜歡一直壓制你中路，就是因為太依賴使用雪球角色導致他整系列比賽在後期表現得不太好，跟他對線需要更加小心，後期會戰要嬴不會難。
first-rate mechanics, has preference for snowbally champs such as cass, swain etc. not much roaming ability as he lieks to pressure you at mid, because of his overreliance on snowball champs, his lategame performance is usually not too great. playing against him you just have to be careful, lategame it won't be hard to win teamfights.
WE_Misaya - WE目前來說算是一個全新的隊伍，兩位新成員加入，雖然台柱微笑依然佔領世界前三強AD。隊伍上的配合度不夠，而這次比賽他選用的角色包括Orianna，Vlad，Ryze。Orianna並沒有玩得非常純熟，而Vlad跟Ryze卻並不是隊伍中致勝的關鍵，嬴是穩穩的，輸也是穩穩的。
the current WE can be said to be a whole new roster with the inclusion of 2 new members, although Weixiao is still one of the top 3 ADs in the world. not enough coordination within the team, and the champs he chose in this tournament: (ori, vlad, ryze) Ori: he didn't seem to be experienced enough with her, and his vlad and ryze were never the decisive factor in their games. when they won he was just around there (referring to his impact), when they lost he was just around there too.
NaJin Sword_SSONG - Orianna的操控者，在韓國S2資格賽他的Orianna表現得非常好，8強對上我們運用一些選角心理令他兩場都沒辦法選到Orianna，對線技巧不錯，一些中路視野掌握度不夠，除了Orianna以外他需要熟練更多的角色。
the controller of orianna (???), his orianna play during the korean qualifiers were very good. during the top 8 matches we used some draft psychology / mindfuckery to make him unable to pick ori. his mechanics are not bad, his grasp of vision around mid isn't enough. other than orianna he needs to train more champs
TSM_Reginald - 也許他已經了解到自己再也找不到S1那種侵略的Style，他往後唯一有比較大影響的只有Karthus，當一個對線技巧不足以讓你打出優勢跑線能力也不足的時候，Karthus將會是最好的選擇，穩穩的農，大招就是全球支援。也許他會選擇S3中淡出職業生涯？我不知道。
maybe he finally understands that he can no longer find that aggressive playstyle he was known for from season 1. recently the only champ he is able to have a large impact on the game on is karthus. when your mechanics / roaming abilities are not strong enough to produce an advantage from mid, karthus will be the logical best choice. play it stably and the ult is a global assist. perhaps he will choose to (something about retirement) in s3?
DIG_scarra - 西門夜說.NA，也許大家覺得我在釣魚，我並沒有:D。有一定的對線技巧，愛嘴炮，自大，把自己整個形象都破壞了。整個年度裡面最大型的比賽卻選擇了Kata，我相信這十二支隊伍裡面都不會希望自己隊伍的中路選手只玩自己想玩的英雄，下場就是被賽前排名12的隊伍打到爛掉。
西門也說westdoor.NA (referring to the fact that scarra played kat, something which westdoor is known for). perhaps people will think i'm fishing, but i'm not. has some level of mechanical skills, likes to talk his mouth off, arrogant, totally ruined his image. chose to play kata in the year's biggest tournament. i believe that in these 12 teams no one would want their AP mid to only play what he felt like playing. in the next match they got creamed by the team ranked 12th in the tournament~
I'll finish translating it :D
M5_Alex.ich - 雖然這次比賽他被單殺的次數很高，不得不佩服的是他對遊戲的認知與經驗，這次比賽選用了EVE，Gragas，Zliean。EVE毫無疑問的把IG跟我們都打爛了，實在是想不出任何應對的方式，他會選擇用Zliean是因為他的被動與復活吧，對團隊幫助極大，只是有點過於執著在這個角色了，另外他拿手角色Gragas卻是上個版本被nerf過的角色，當然不會是致勝的關鍵，Alex絕對是我遇過經驗最多最讓人有壓力的一個選手。
Alex.ich: Although he did die 1v1 a couple of times this tournament, his knowledge of the game and experience is something that I truly respect. He used chaps like eve, grag, zilean. His eve was stomping us (TPA) and iG, and we could not come up with a way to respond to his eve. He chose zilean because of his movement speed bonus and revive, I'm guessing, and it's really helpful to his team. But I think he's too reliant on that character. One of his best champs gragas was nerfed, so it wasn't as game-changing as before. Alex is probably one of the guys wiht the most experience and one of the guys who exerts the most pressure.
CLG.eu_Froggen - 很多採訪都有問到我那一位選手最難應付，我的回答是Froggen，為什麼？他是一個永遠都住在中路的玩家，個人操作技巧以及反應都是最頂尖的，隊伍給他的配合也是超過正常中路所得到的，試著想想看一級的Karthus會拿到四鬼、三狼、藍BUFF，導致Snoopeh的各種落後，當然我也很明白他們隊伍整個核心就是Froggen。而賽前我也跟隊友說CLG.eu在這次比賽幾乎不可能取得勝利，為什麼？因為這不是Froggen的年代，他曾經用過的角色一一被nerf，百份之百被ban的冰鳥，Orianna他也許不喜歡玩，幾乎就剩下Karthus了，這真的非常可惜。
Froggen:
A lot of people asked me who I think the toughest person to lane against is, and I always answer Froggen. Why? As he basically lives at mid, and has one of the best reactions and mechanics. His team also cooperates with him more than most other teams. Which team is willing to give a level 1 karthus wraiths, wolves, and blue buff? This is extremely taxing on snoopeh. Everyone knows Froggen is the centrepiece of team CLG.eu, and before the tourney I told my teammates that this time CLG.eu will not come first. Why? As Froggen's time has passed: His old favourite characters are being nerfed one by one, and bird is 100% ban, maybe he doesn't like orianna, and taht leaves karthus. It's truly unfortunate.
Azubu Frost_RapidStar - 決賽的對手，對線技巧不錯，但是在於中路視野控制跟四鬼的控制力不足，導致幾乎每一場都被我outfram，還有一點就是對上我們卻把Orianna放出兩場，不知道是隊伍的討論還是他自己的個人決定，這就好像對上Froggen不ban冰鳥卻又不選的情況是相同的，值得尊敬的對手，擁有最頂尖的Skill shot技巧。把Lux演化成另一隻角色，非常厲害的一位玩家。
Rapidstar:
My opponent for the finals. Pretty good mechanics, but is not really strong at controlling vision and wraiths, and letting me outfarm him almost every game. Don't know why his team didn't ban Orianna more, it's the same as letting froggen play anivia. A respectable opponent, and is very good as skillshots. Lux was like a diff champ in his hands, overall a great opponent.
TPA_Toyz - 至於我自己嘛....沒什麼好講了XD 只能說這次比賽的表現我很滿意。
Me: Not much to say, but I'm happy with my performance this tourney.
這幾天也許會發更多的文章讓大家了解更多你們不知道的事情，敬請期待 lol...
I'll prolly post more in the following days to let everyone know about more things, please look forward to them!
My english is probably not the best, but I think this is pretty accurate
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Are there any vods of the korean commentators for the finals?
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On October 16 2012 01:43 TheYango wrote:Does Lilballz actually have the Lilballz NA account again? I remember he sold his account when he first quit NA (ran into the guy who bought his account once in a normal game, was sad to see afterward that the guy had tanked Ballz' 2k Elo down to 1300), and so when he started playing on NA again with the TPA team he was using a smurf account (Lover Mundo I think?).
I'm not sure. It could just have been 1 of his friends playing on it. Their WoW group play on each other's accounts all the time, such as Richard Tracy and whatnot.
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As an aside: Does TPA and Lilballz jungle-farming style make us reconsider the SaintV occasionally tax the lane playstyle?
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the tax thing isn't about your gold situation. the only reason your gold situation would even be a consideration is if you were near a certain gold threshold to purchase a certain item (gp10s, aegis etc)
it's more about efficient collection of farm $. if you happened to be the right person to take the farm at that time, then you take it right there and then
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On October 16 2012 03:09 cLutZ wrote:
As an aside: Does TPA and Lilballz jungle-farming style make us reconsider the SaintV occasionally tax the lane playstyle?
It's just a different playstyle, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Curse in their own right was probably the best NA team that had a chance against Asian teams tbh.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2012 03:09 cLutZ wrote:
As an aside: Does TPA and Lilballz jungle-farming style make us reconsider the SaintV occasionally tax the lane playstyle?
Honestly speaking, Saintvicious has all the experience and ability Lilballz has when it comes to jungling. When it comes down to it, I think the difference between the two is their mindset.
The thing that stands out about Lilballz compared to Saint is how he trusts his teammates enough to sacrifice his own tempo in a situation where he knows they can follow through. As the jungler typically plays the role of a tanky frontline hero, Ballz plays with the realistic expectation that he will probably die in fights, and therefore is willing to use those situations where he has to die to make plays. An example of this was his suicide initiate at Najin's blue in game 1 of TPA vs Najin. It was more or less a given that he was going to die there with the engage, but at the same time, he knew that his team could follow through on the objective of keeping blue off Ssong's Ryze and turn the situation into an advantageous one, cleaning up 2 kills (that both happened to be on Toyz).
On the other hand, Saint's play is just inherently more selfish. He is very typically much more conscious of his own tempo, and is much less willing to make plays like that which will sacrifice his own development. He undoubtedly knows such plays will result in a good outcome, but on both CLG and on Curse he shows reluctance to make plays that will jeopardize his own tempo in exchange for creating a scenario that his teammates can clean up for an overall advantage.
Practically speaking, Saint's comparatively selfish playstyle is still reliable for solo queue. The lack of communication and trust that is inherent in solo queue matchmaking means that it is simply impossible to rely on your teammates to that degree--but in arranged play, you HAVE to be able to trust your teammates to that extent to play at the highest level. "Selfish" is something that has no place in arranged competitive play, while at the same time, it's the only possible attitude to have for solo queue.
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I don't know if you can say that though. St. V on CLG compensated for HSGG so hard on top lane, that he had to rely on the fact that doublelift and chau can completely hold their own on botlane.
Also, if you looked at the improved Curse players, gotta give time for St.V to adjust to the fact that Nyjacky, elementz, and cop are all getting good.
I'm also still in shock at the lack of Ahri being played. I felt that would've been the Ori killer in games.
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On October 16 2012 03:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 03:09 cLutZ wrote:
As an aside: Does TPA and Lilballz jungle-farming style make us reconsider the SaintV occasionally tax the lane playstyle? Honestly speaking, Saintvicious has all the experience and ability Lilballz has when it comes to jungling. When it comes down to it, I think the difference between the two is their mindset. The thing that stands out about Lilballz compared to Saint is how he trusts his teammates enough to sacrifice his own tempo in a situation where he knows they can follow through. As the jungler typically plays the role of a tanky frontline hero, Ballz plays with the realistic expectation that he will probably die in fights, and therefore is willing to use those situations where he has to die to make plays. An example of this was his suicide initiate at Najin's blue in game 1 of TPA vs Najin. It was more or less a given that he was going to die there with the engage, but at the same time, he knew that his team could follow through on the objective of keeping blue off Ssong's Ryze and turn the situation into an advantageous one, cleaning up 2 kills (that both happened to be on Toyz). On the other hand, Saint's play is just inherently more selfish. He is very typically much more conscious of his own tempo, and is much less willing to make plays like that which will sacrifice his own development. He undoubtedly knows such plays will result in a good outcome, but on both CLG and on Curse he shows reluctance to make plays that will jeopardize his own tempo in exchange for creating a scenario that his teammates can clean up for an overall advantage. Practically speaking, Saint's comparatively selfish playstyle is still reliable for solo queue. The lack of communication and trust that is inherent in solo queue matchmaking means that it is simply impossible to rely on your teammates to that degree--but in arranged play, you HAVE to be able to trust your teammates to that extent to play at the highest level. "Selfish" is something that has no place in arranged competitive play, while at the same time, it's the only possible attitude to have for solo queue.
If Curse replaced Westrice and Saint improved his team coordination, I think they'd be the best team in North America especially since Reginald isn't retiring. Nyjacky makes Reginald his bitch
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United States37500 Posts
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On October 16 2012 04:01 wei2coolman wrote:
I don't know if you can say that though. St. V on CLG compensated for HSGG so hard on top lane, that he had to rely on the fact that doublelift and chau can completely hold their own on botlane.
Also, if you looked at the improved Curse players, gotta give time for St.V to adjust to the fact that Nyjacky, elementz, and cop are all getting good.
I'm also still in shock at the lack of Ahri being played. I felt that would've been the Ori killer in games.
what do you mean compensated for? If hotshot was one thing toplane, he was stable - got farmed consistently, sometimes beating or losing to his lane opponent but assuring his own development via lane and picking up cs in sieges and objective control
If anything the difference between the pre and post double clg showed the biggest difference - double quite often splits apart from his team to farm another lane rather than his team simply allowing him to take more creeps in their soeges, especially since hsgg and stv were so active about taking those creeps in their sieges whereas chauster gave up that cs for more map pressure
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On October 16 2012 04:14 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 03:34 TheYango wrote:On October 16 2012 03:09 cLutZ wrote:
As an aside: Does TPA and Lilballz jungle-farming style make us reconsider the SaintV occasionally tax the lane playstyle? Honestly speaking, Saintvicious has all the experience and ability Lilballz has when it comes to jungling. When it comes down to it, I think the difference between the two is their mindset. The thing that stands out about Lilballz compared to Saint is how he trusts his teammates enough to sacrifice his own tempo in a situation where he knows they can follow through. As the jungler typically plays the role of a tanky frontline hero, Ballz plays with the realistic expectation that he will probably die in fights, and therefore is willing to use those situations where he has to die to make plays. An example of this was his suicide initiate at Najin's blue in game 1 of TPA vs Najin. It was more or less a given that he was going to die there with the engage, but at the same time, he knew that his team could follow through on the objective of keeping blue off Ssong's Ryze and turn the situation into an advantageous one, cleaning up 2 kills (that both happened to be on Toyz). On the other hand, Saint's play is just inherently more selfish. He is very typically much more conscious of his own tempo, and is much less willing to make plays like that which will sacrifice his own development. He undoubtedly knows such plays will result in a good outcome, but on both CLG and on Curse he shows reluctance to make plays that will jeopardize his own tempo in exchange for creating a scenario that his teammates can clean up for an overall advantage. Practically speaking, Saint's comparatively selfish playstyle is still reliable for solo queue. The lack of communication and trust that is inherent in solo queue matchmaking means that it is simply impossible to rely on your teammates to that degree--but in arranged play, you HAVE to be able to trust your teammates to that extent to play at the highest level. "Selfish" is something that has no place in arranged competitive play, while at the same time, it's the only possible attitude to have for solo queue. If Curse replaced Westrice and Saint improved his team coordination, I think they'd be the best team in North America especially since Reginald isn't retiring. Nyjacky makes Reginald his bitch
Curse certainly could not have contended in this tournament. Westrice is just so far behind most pro toplaners. I think a lot of people in these forums overstimate cop/elementz. They are the 4th best AD/Sup duo (maybe 3rd) in the NA scence, and probably are passed by Aphromoo+anyone right now.
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On October 16 2012 05:59 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 04:14 MattBarry wrote:On October 16 2012 03:34 TheYango wrote:On October 16 2012 03:09 cLutZ wrote:
As an aside: Does TPA and Lilballz jungle-farming style make us reconsider the SaintV occasionally tax the lane playstyle? Honestly speaking, Saintvicious has all the experience and ability Lilballz has when it comes to jungling. When it comes down to it, I think the difference between the two is their mindset. The thing that stands out about Lilballz compared to Saint is how he trusts his teammates enough to sacrifice his own tempo in a situation where he knows they can follow through. As the jungler typically plays the role of a tanky frontline hero, Ballz plays with the realistic expectation that he will probably die in fights, and therefore is willing to use those situations where he has to die to make plays. An example of this was his suicide initiate at Najin's blue in game 1 of TPA vs Najin. It was more or less a given that he was going to die there with the engage, but at the same time, he knew that his team could follow through on the objective of keeping blue off Ssong's Ryze and turn the situation into an advantageous one, cleaning up 2 kills (that both happened to be on Toyz). On the other hand, Saint's play is just inherently more selfish. He is very typically much more conscious of his own tempo, and is much less willing to make plays like that which will sacrifice his own development. He undoubtedly knows such plays will result in a good outcome, but on both CLG and on Curse he shows reluctance to make plays that will jeopardize his own tempo in exchange for creating a scenario that his teammates can clean up for an overall advantage. Practically speaking, Saint's comparatively selfish playstyle is still reliable for solo queue. The lack of communication and trust that is inherent in solo queue matchmaking means that it is simply impossible to rely on your teammates to that degree--but in arranged play, you HAVE to be able to trust your teammates to that extent to play at the highest level. "Selfish" is something that has no place in arranged competitive play, while at the same time, it's the only possible attitude to have for solo queue. If Curse replaced Westrice and Saint improved his team coordination, I think they'd be the best team in North America especially since Reginald isn't retiring. Nyjacky makes Reginald his bitch Curse certainly could not have contended in this tournament. Westrice is just so far behind most pro toplaners. I think a lot of people in these forums overstimate cop/elementz. They are the 4th best AD/Sup duo (maybe 3rd) in the NA scence, and probably are passed by Aphromoo+anyone right now.
Apparently no NA teams contended in the world finals. I think curse without Westrice would be easily the second best if not the best team in NA. Elementz is a beast, cop is pretty good. They're all improving pretty rapidly in relation to the rest of the NA teams
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towards the end of st.v's stay in clg.na, hsgg's toplane was failing. they were experimenting with some swapping within team like a month before st.v got booted. I think chau wanted clg.na to be more champion centric rather lane centric. I remember hsgg was playing support for a few scrims. Saint also camped the shit out of toplane for hsgg. usually saint rarely ganks, unless there was a high probability of success, but you could see towards the end that saint was spending more and more time in top lane for ganks just for HSGG. Even now you'll see Saint camp top to compensate for Westrice's lack of skill.
I dunno how i feel about cop, he's gotten a lot better, but I feel like he's out of his element when he's not playing Corki.
Elementz a lot better, but he's still got a lot of work to do before he's a contender for chau-tier support. One thing he does going for him is his ability to play non-standard supports really well. Nyjacky's in a very solid spot, I would like to see how he stacks up against the likes of Toyz/Froggen/Ich tier mids. Westrice is... yeah... everything about him is weak. He's the only curse player that hasn't improved significantly since the 3way trade.
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Ouch, Toyz' criticism of Scarra hits hard. I guess that the entirety of Dig hasn't really improved that much compared to the rest of the world, not unlike other NA teams. Crs and TSM both improved quite a bit I feel, and I'm excited to see the new upcoming teams in tournaments, mostly MME.Ferus/TD. I know they aren't up to the level of AZF/TPA/CLG.eu/M5 atm, but they have a lot of potential. Guys like Aphromoo can shake up the scene if they can take their team to the top or get into one that's already there.
But Toyz' analysis is very good (quite useful for a TL S2 WC review too maybe?). Quite impressive to see that the two mids he feared most were Froggen/Alex Ich, and not any of the other asian ones (Rapidstar/SSONG/ZZtai).
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Saint was probably the first jungler to tax lanes and push with the laner after a successful gank, these two things alone are pretty much groundbreaking to jungling. I have no doubt that the jungler's progress is being highly undervalued right now. What CLG.EU does is essentially turn the game into a 3v5. The role that has the most influence during laning phase is the jungler by far, it self evidently does not make sense to give the champion who has the most influence during the most important phase of the game the least gold, unless they value Froggen's inherent ability more than Snoopeh's. The advantage you gain by having mid hog all the farm on non-karthus champions is too limited to be of use until much later. This tournament was essentially a mid-centric tourney, which is really confusing considering it's one of the least important roles. The mid's growth should probably be valued below the AD and just above top's. But in reality the better player should always get the most farm. The only tax that can justify itself imo is double golems tax by top or bottom, since it is counterproductive to let its spawn timer dictate the jungler's path, because its location is so far away from the area of control on the map. Wraiths and wolves are really the main income for junglers and the more I play and the more I watch games it just bothers me how anyone can possibly think the laner gets priority over those camps even when the jungler is there to take them.
The difference in the support vs farm playstyle goes much further than simply mindset. Very generally speaking, saint's style should be more theoretically correct than support style. Of course lilballz's style is different than snoopeh's is different than cloudtemplar's. The meta right now is simply too highly specialized. The jungler pool is too limited to efficient, cc bot junglers who have barely any influence later in the game. I would love to see a team build their comp around a farmed hecarim who wrecks every lane and teamfight. Because with this meta right now, the jungler is probably guaranteed safer gold income than top, who trades constantly and is never safe and has to deal with lane swaps, etc. I think a lot of these problems would be solved easily if laners played more jungle, and can empathize more easily how hard it is to not be behind and how shitty it is when you are.
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On October 16 2012 02:38 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 01:43 TheYango wrote:On October 15 2012 13:24 HazMat wrote:
Lilballz = Lilballz
Does Lilballz actually have the Lilballz NA account again? I remember he sold his account when he first quit NA (ran into the guy who bought his account once in a normal game, was sad to see afterward that the guy had tanked Ballz' 2k Elo down to 1300), and so when he started playing on NA again with the TPA team he was using a smurf account (Lover Mundo I think?). I'm not sure. It could just have been 1 of his friends playing on it. Their WoW group play on each other's accounts all the time, such as Richard Tracy and whatnot.
that was him queue dodging in season 1 down to 1300, played vs him multiple times in normals and he crushed face in every one.
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cc bot junglers who have barely any influence later in the game.
I think this is inaccurate. They just have different type of influence. Sure they don't scale in the damage department, but the utility offered is relevant the entire game. Maokai's twisted advance is crucial in lategame, just like his ulti remains relevant in lategame as well. Sure it doesn't necessarily scale at the same level as farmed junglers, but considering cost effectiveness of how much utility you get out of it; you can't really be surprised when high utility-low gold junglers end up reigning supreme in this current meta.
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On October 16 2012 07:21 zulu_nation8 wrote:
unless they value Froggen's inherent ability more than Snoopeh's.
They do
The advantage you gain by having mid hog all the farm on non-karthus champions is too limited to be of use until much later. This tournament was essentially a mid-centric tourney, which is really confusing considering it's one of the least important roles. The mid's growth should probably be valued below the AD and just above top's.
Highly debatable, I would disagree on the whole. The AD obviously needs his items and farm but their capability to farm jungle and lanes with speed is on the whole much lower than most APs. Good CS in lane, proper amounts of CS when not being forced to waveclear / shove in quickly will allow a smooth distribution as with what we saw in TPA's bebe.
Wraiths and wolves are really the main income for junglers and the more I play and the more I watch games it just bothers me how anyone can possibly think the laner gets priority over those camps even when the jungler is there to take them. Then I believe you don't play enough AP. APs can clear these camps much more quickly than most junglers and indeed tend to hold more control over these camps with their burst than the junglers themselves (when they don't have smite, but using smite on wraiths tends to be a poor choice if any jungle objective is up anyhow).
Very generally speaking, saint's style should be more theoretically correct than support style. Farm on one person is farm less on another. That doesn't mean farm on jungler is bad, but you will have to find another source of income if you want additional itemization. I feel jungler farming mid when safe and having mid apply map pressure while clearing camps is a good option for this.
I would love to see a team build their comp around a farmed hecarim who wrecks every lane and teamfight. Play hecarim top.
Because with this meta right now, the jungler is probably guaranteed safer gold income than top, who trades constantly and is never safe and has to deal with lane swaps, etc. No. If the team wants their top to be farmed, they will find a way to do so, whether trading back into a more favorable lane (i.e. can win lane vs / will come out more farmed than enemy top, but midgame they end up picking much more farm and levels up than jungle anyhow) or forcing ganks with 2+ppl on the lane.
I think a lot of these problems would be solved easily if laners played more jungle, and can empathize more easily how hard it is to not be behind and how shitty it is when you are.
I'm sure plenty of laners do and have.
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EPT
