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EDIT: Join the Battle.net channel: MeleeMapTesting on NA/EU (and others?)
I'll be on it often 
END EDIT
Warning: rant/wall of text incoming.
I'm new to the mapping forums, my first post was less than a year ago and I didn't really start participating until April of this year. However in the past few weeks I've been finding old threads of maps, from past MotM, threads of ProdiG's maps, monitor's maps, superouman's maps, looking at mapping challenges that apparently used to be pretty frequent, and others. There have been a TON of maps made, a ton of very good maps! And pretty much none them have gone anywhere.
We keep posting new maps and that's cool and all, but I feel like we should be producing fewer, better maps, and spending much more effort trying to get people to play on different maps. We have mapping teams like Crux, ESV, TPW, and now DF (and apparently LoW used to be a team?), and some of their maps have broken out (Mainly Crux and ESV because of the GSL), but even for them not many.
I'm committing myself to getting everybody I can to play on new maps. This means practice partners, people I want to rematch on ladder, irl friends, etc. I recently got my University's in-house tournament to use the following map pool:
DF Absolution by ArcticRaven
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=368260
ESV Khaydaria by IronManSC
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339713
TPW Breaking Point by TerranLover aka Mereel
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=362093
Uncanny Valley by OxyGenesis
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361391
Ring Mount by RFDaemoniac
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16073764
(Only because they wanted a map by me, and I've since made changes to try and make it more competitive and less of a joke...)
ESV Muspelheim by Jacky
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332925
GSL Whirlwind by WinparkPrime
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327014
WCS Daybreak LE by WinparkPrime
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Daybreak
(The only ladder map!)
Scrap Station by Blizzard
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Scrap_Station
(They wanted nostalgic cheese)
I've also posted about the MotM tournament (having $ is awesome for the scene!).
So this is pretty cool, and people are starting their games this week. I'll try to post replays to the various threads if I can get them.
This is where I think we should spend our time. Aggregating a map pool of the best community maps, with options for more quirky maps, more strategy maps, standard maps, large maps, micro maps, etc. So that tournament organizers can have a place to look and see with some reliability maps that they could potentially use. And then host tournaments using the pool and ask for player reviews of maps, giving money for the most helpful reviews, for insightful and interesting plays using map terrain, as well as for the winner. This would help us as a community to refine the pool over time, increasing the confidence of tournament organizers ("Well if qxc and 1000s of viewers think this map is awesome, I could probably introduce it as an option in the open bracket").
And then when we decide that we should be making new maps from interesting new ideas or improving others because we think we can make them better, let anybody work on them! I'm publishing all of my maps as unlocked because if anybody makes a map that is awesome using one of my maps as a template, that's awesome! I don't even want credit as much as I want the community to be producing good, interesting maps, and I know that mine certainly aren't good maps, let alone the best. (Though credit is conceptually important  )
But I don't think that publishing unlocked is enough, because of the region zoning. Hopefully this changes with HotS but I'm also going to be hosting my map files as a public dropbox account. I want us to work together to create awesomeness, because I know that I can't create it alone even though I do feel that I'm getting better.
I've heard that there is a Mapper's Cave skype conversation, and that would be pretty cool to get in on, though I don't know how exclusive you are. If you don't want run-of-the-mill mappers such as myself dumbing down the conversation, that's completely reasonable.
TLMC was one of the greatest things to happen to the ladder map pool. Let's show people awesome games on awesome maps, that them that they really do want a rotating ladder pool (or at least an update to the maps).
TL;DR There have been a ton of maps made already, and many of them are awesome. I therefore don't feel that creating new maps is where I or anybody else can be most productive in this community. I am actively trying to promote maps that I think are good, but would like to see a resource for this other than having to rely on maps that I've seen on TL in the past few weeks and remember. We should work together to polish maps, make a solid pool with multiple options, and publicize the shit out of it.
Much love,
RFDaemoniac
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Daybreak was made my WinparkPrime
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Thanks for catching that! I'm not sure why I had it listed as Blizzard considering that I knew it came from the GSL and everything, ah well...
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I agree that new maps are not used enough, that is cause pro's don't want to practice on new maps for a small tourny and big tournies don't want to risk a new map being imbalanced, so they don't get new maps. And most people don't want to play on new maps unless they see them used in some big tourny.
I myself run a weekly cup and even introducing 1 community map was hard (lots of negative feedback and rant about being needed to learn new maps), so congraz on convincing your university to play on community maps .
I do think that if there was a good map pool that the community (mapping teams) polished together, consisting of something like 20-30 maps, there could be a much easier time getting a new map on ladder / big tournament, since you could publish it much easier and let the organizers many very good options to choose from. Having something like 20-30 very good maps would also allow the map pool to remain fresh, since you could always get maps replaced with other maps from the pool!
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personally, i have been thinking we need to start cataloguizing to keeptrack of all the maps created.
there have been quite a few great maps that have been quickly forgotten after they disappeared from page1, which i think is a bit sad. it would be nice to have a simple database with map names, overview pics, author, comments etc. and maybe even user ratings (careful with that one).
i'd avoid stuff like winrates, tho. because you'll never get any significant amount of data, and maps get updated/changed too often. maybe include replays instead.
now if only someone was willing to code that, i'd help doing the the design for it :D
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I think everything RF said is on-point. All these maps we make - getting them played a moderate amount (even if it's mostly within our community to start with) and then modified, played and then modified.. hammering out the rough parts so that they are super polished.. could really go a long way.
To expand on part of what RF was saying: Right now here is what happens.. a map (maybe even a really good one) is posted. Maybe if the person is well-established or if the map is just -stunning- they get a few people to play on it. But most of the time it just gets theorycraft feedback "well, it looks like that 3rd might be tough for Z" without anyone actually playing on it. The mapmaker has to make changes at this point based on people's guesses (so they might actually be bad changes, lol), and after the first batch of changes (if they even make changes.. some people are bad about this) the thread usually dies out. Bam, map dead, time to move on to the next one. No way for this map to get exposure, or to improve until it's a tournament-quality map.. etc. There's no positive outcome here other than the sheer fun of making the map.. which is nice but of course we want more!
The map pool idea + catalog idea lefix had would work really well together in fixing this. Maps will get more plays and hence more feedback, so the mapmakers will be more encouraged to keep updating a single map rather than make-it-and-leave-it. I try to be good about updating.. one of my maps Yog's Winter first had a thread at like 0.8 or something, and it was originally a larger map with a different name and different thread LOL.. and it's now 1.6. That's how much change has gone into that thing (and it still needs some work, I think). But it's hard when people don't really play community maps and only leave posts based on feelings or guesses (which I admit, I am guilty of too).
I've noticed that a lot of korean mapmakers have teams (either professional or friendly) that will playtest their maps. We should be no different (except maybe we won't officially be a "team").
Other thoughts:
- I agree that you should publish as unlocked, there's a few pros and no real cons.
- I somewhat agree that we should publish a few less maps and increase the quality, however this will only be possible once we get people to start playing them. i.e. you can't make changes based on nothing, since obviously the way you publish it will be perfect to you. Also, many changes only take a few minutes (literally) to make, so if you have more free time that you're willing to throw at mapmaking you might as well be working on a different map (or playtesting one of the community maps, I suppose ).
- Since so many good -standard- maps have been made already (and if we successfully compile that catalog, it will be easy to see how many there are) I think a much higher % of maps we as the TL mapmaking community make should be experimental. There's simply no reason to keep making more Daybreaks and Cloud Kingdoms, (unless it's your first map and you're trying to get your footing) yet we had plenty in motm (i'll admit i was sorta part of the problem, yog's is by far my tamest map)
- p.s. lefix you sorta got robbed in motm, people are so scared of mirror instead of rotational even though it works fine when done well, it's dumb.
Btw thanks RF for starting this initiative, it's awesome.
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define "become more strict"
and i have actually a new show (not tournament) planned, where for each episode i will give out a list of ~5 maps to play - people send in replays, then cast the best submissions + some kind of reward for the best submissions. preparations are going well so far, still need casters, tho ^^
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Is there a in game channel or youtube channel for the...
+ Show Spoiler +Get this map on the front page of the melee list.
Get This Map On The Front Page Of The Melee List.
Get. This. Map. On The. Front. Page. Of. The. Melee. List.
GET THIS MAP ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE MELEE LIST.
GET THIS MAP ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE MELEE LIST.
GET THIS MAP ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE MELEE LIST.
...effort?
Would be nice aren't it? :3
PS: Love this Forum, new melee maps are awesome for SC2
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not really, it has been attempted several times, but the channels always died within a couple days.
i guess that is mostly because mapmakers don't really spend as much time ingame as they spend in the editor.
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As far as increasing strict-ness goes, potentially having something like another sub-forum might help. One would be the free-for-all open subject forum, and also where those less developed maps get posted. The other would be where those more polished maps go, but then there's a problem: how would you go about fixing who's allowed to post what? If an answer to this could be found, and the whole system could actually be done, I think that would be a great way to add some validity to the mapping sub-forum. If there was a section where the best mapmakers put out their most polished works, then any old forum-goer could stray on over there and find something really worth looking at, especially those master/GM players.
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I think that if you want people to drop the every-man-for-himself mentality you have to change the rules. And by that, I mean that you have to create an environment in which said mentality is no longer beneficial to the individual. One way of doing this would be to host tournaments with community maps, and only allow maps made by people who promote the other community maps over their own. This would mean that an individual who wanted to promote his map would be better off presenting it to the community and having the whole community promote it than he would be promoting it himself.
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If you really want to have [M] mean finished, good, exciting new map, we need a different forum for shit maps and wip maps, and some kind of council to bestow [M] status. And some kind of objective metric like 100 replays or used in ESV weekly for a month or whatever. (ESV weekly should use other people's maps, but whatever.) But the important part of what I'm saying is that keeping wip maps in one thread will never work, there will be so much clutter and cross-posting that it'll be a huge chore to contribute. (See samro's thread, which I love but gets confusing during high traffic, and then dies periodically.)
OH WAIT A SOLUTION:
TL doesn't need to give us another sub forum. They need to put good new maps in the spotlight by having a custom melee map roster in the sidebar, at the top of SC2. This would increase map visibility, it would certainly get more plays to maps that need 'em, and it would let us keep a messy forum full of untested maps so we can keep working on them.
Plexa get on it?
And yeah, people need to post in more map threads way more often.
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Moskonia, I feel you that there is a lot of backlash. I got some from members at my university but thankfully had the support of the GM/Masters in the group! I think that once we can establish some level of credibility in the map pool people will be a whole lot more open to paying on them. For example from this MotM, the final series will probably be pretty epic. Husky would be a great place to send a few of these replays, since he does some more far out stuff in general, though he might be busy doing HotS replays... I'm also looking to cast a few games but I'm not great and don't have any exposure. If we had a place where all the maps were catalogued we could put replays from games played on them in one of the subsections.
Lefix this would definitely help! And while I don't think you should let just anybody rate, I think that you could have confirmed GM players rate maps and take those seriously, as well as members of the mapping community that have made maps that have been well rated in the past (i.e. if you've submitted 3+ maps that get rated at 8+/10 you can rate maps in various categories as well).
I had asked about this before, but I think that TL used to have an API for getting at posts, is that true? That would be incredibly useful rather than having to rely on writing a scraper.
Fatam, you get me! And Yog's winter has come a long way (from a theory perspective, I haven't played on it yet ) But I want to! And will! However I disagree that people think their maps are perfect when they post them. I know that when I post a map I'm asking for other people to point out conceptual and design holes, let alone balance and specifics. That is because I have only made 35 maps and only spent more than 16 hours on 3 of them. Pretty much everything that I've posted is because I didn't have places to share my map and get feedback that weren't here.
The WIP thread has been great and I really hope that it continues.
Playtesting is sooo important, and I now play ~5 non-ladder games a week on different maps. I'm only a platinum player so most of what I can talk about is army movement and how things feel, but I would love for even this type of feedback to become commonplace. I plan on starting threads far less frequently.
Barrin, you're completely the man. On a more related note, you're also completely on point about selfish. I think stickying the WIP thread would help clear up some of the early-phase posts, or enforcing maps to be marked as [WIP] at the very least, especially if they were accompanied by a change in the forum guidelines and a little notice post. You don't even have to be mean and tell people their maps are awful. I know that when I posted my first map if it had been removed from the forum for being awful (it really is awful) I would have been soo confused and upset.
There was a channel suggested for MeleeMapTesting (I think that was it?) But I don't remember (bad sign)! If we could include a more succinct description of this thread in the posting guidelines that could help as well.
EDIT: Lefix, as an interim solution to programming it, I know that I spend a fair amount of times on the forums and would be happy to help manually update a site with maps on it.
I don't think that the mapping forum is big enough to warent having two forums for it, but I agree that this would help a lot. I.E. Map development and Map publishing
I also completely agree that having some community maps on the frontpage or in the sidebar would go a long way towards getting exposure and getting them played.
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The best thing to do is to open a channel where you can play custom maps, I want to try new maps really bad (as long as they are decent) but I can not find anyone else to try with since all my buddies are lame, someone tries to make one "meleemaptesting" or something, but it did not work out. I am a master player with loads of experience and I just want play vs other masters on cool new maps (and give feedback afterwards).
A channel should be named something short, maybe something like "maps" or "MapTesting", but even that is a bit long, unless it is short it is annoying to enter.
EDIT: RFD what? you do not cast your tournament?!? how can you make a tournament without casting? you should go right ahead and start to cast it yourself or get someone to cast it for you. The biggest joy in being in a tournament is that people get to see you play. you get to feel like a pro when you watch the VOD's of your games. About being good, don;t worry, when I first started casting I was so bad it was horrifying, but quality comes with time, also it is a hell of a fun casting!
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We have a couple other people casting, and I'm definitely going to join them :D Just saying it would be great to get a known caster to do a couple replays on new maps, and Husky seems like he's open to new stuff.
"Melee" Could be a good map channel? Or is this no longer common vernacular?
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@RFD
I am a bit sceptical about manual updates, because at some point everyone will definitely be lazy - at least for a period of time :D
however i am going to look at some wp plugins. might be there is something close to what we would need to start a library, but it most likely won't have all the desired features.
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On September 25 2012 01:45 RFDaemoniac wrote:
There was a channel suggested for MeleeMapTesting (I think that was it?) But I don't remember (bad sign)! If we could include a more succinct description of this thread in the posting guidelines that could help as well.
I'm always hear when I play (eg. all weekend long, and no other time besides :D), Yonnua, Oxygenesis, and Ferisii too, as well as DF mappers on EU. I try to get my friends to come in there too.
EDit : Also thanks a lot for Absolution ! I don't think the map is good enough compared to other stuff here, but I'm glad it gets a bit of love anyway 
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EPT
