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I think the always-on maptesting channel idea is wonderful. Someone start that shyte. I should be up and playing SC2 again in a week or less, so hopefully I'm not coming across as a "you guys go do this, but I'm going to sit back" kind of guy. I would love to help playtest all these maps (or as many as I reasonably can) very very soon.
I think most of the people in -this thread- aren't selfish, but I totally agree with what you're saying Barrin, there are quite a few that seem that way. I always worry that sometimes I seem that way because I try to be very good about updating my maps when feedback is given.. but doing that also bumps the threads a ton which might make me look attention-whorish. double-edged sword i guess lol
I agree w/ moskonia, -someone- should cast your tourney RF. I've never done it so maybe I'm completely wrong, but it seems like the very basic entry-level casting (aka not apollo) is not too hard to do. Just be aware of the map and the production tab, say what's going on, and occasionally give your own opinion on what might happen / who has the edge / etc.
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I will now always be in the channel MeleeMapTesting while on Battle.net NA
I'll try to get some like-minded friends to do this as well!
Lefix keep posting here if you find a good scraper.
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Daemoniac, you should put that channel into the op and possibly make a thread and sticky it, that way you can link all the maps in progress and the channel to go, if people are interested in playing them, and im sure people will 
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I'll add that to my list of channels I always keep open... =]
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On September 25 2012 01:45 EatThePath wrote:
TL doesn't need to give us another sub forum. They need to put good new maps in the spotlight by having a custom melee map roster in the sidebar, at the top of SC2. This would increase map visibility, it would certainly get more plays to maps that need 'em, and it would let us keep a messy forum full of untested maps so we can keep working on them.
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This would help so much. 1. General showcase with maps published in the span of 1 month with possibility of poll/rating and 2. Featured map(s) that get a TL promotion + visibility on front page
Something like a "map of the week" even randomly picked would help so much creating many more plays and getting more people to comment on maps.
part of the problem (even within teams) is that everybody wants to make maps and people tend to have a small focus (naturally) from spending time looking at their own maps we have to motivate other people to comment that are not intersted to make maps and hence are not too much "in" and get to a meta level easily.
Most importantly: Have fun!
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Before reading into this post understand that I a) own WoL but almost never play it and b) do watch the vast majority of tournaments and have a very good understanding of the game.
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Overall I agree with what the OP has said in regards to needing to create a solid and 'market-able' (if you will) map poll for the ladder or tournaments. As other people have already touched on one of the biggest obstacles is getting Blizzard or tournaments to take note of these maps.
The easiest way to go about this would be to create a say tri-monthly tournament with a mix of pro's-Gm/Master players like the TLMC and obviously have a prize pool to help spark some interest. If we go down this road though it's extremely important that we do everything we can to make Blizz/Tournys take note of these maps and not just hope they look into it.
Blizzard definitely has some sort of 'standards' when it comes to considering maps. What those are - who knows. They've added Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom, and various others but it seems to be few and far between. The GSL on the other hand has introduced quiet a few new maps - ESV Muspelheim by Jacky - being one of those, yet we see this map almost never used. On the flip side of that Metropolis was used a ton but was retired because it was the most imbalanced map used by the GSL. So there's give and take when it comes to community made maps.
Another option we have for getting maps noticed would be to simply overwhelm their forums, albeit a stupid idea but it is an option.
Frankly what I'd like to see is someone on these vary forums come up with a selection of maps no bigger than 20 put into poll form as a "yes/no" for being added to the ladder similar to this or this.
But we also need to back up these maps with a vast amount of replays/statistics - absolute minimal 100 per map (up to 1000) so that we can without a doubt say what maps are and are not balanced.
I know the community can change the course of the game/map-pool we just aren't trying hard enough yet. We also need to realize that maps being stagnant isn't reason enough to get rid of it, there needs to be a clear and obvious flaw with it.
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This would be extremely sweet, we need.
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I have the skills but I'm not sure about the time. I'm looking at various scrapers like Scrapy.py and BeautifulSoup, since the one of the harder technical parts would probably be picking up new maps as they're posted.
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well, we are not in any rush :D
wilf has already offered his help and knows a little coding, but he is also more of a designer i believe (i can't really tell how hard to code this is).
i guess we would need some sort of cms to add new maps, etc.
and multiple people with access to it just in case people go inactive.
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well, we are not in any rush :D
I think it's important we get some sort of system up and running a little before HOTS, at least. Other than that (probably far-away) deadline I agree, I think whoever is doing it should take their time and get it right
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I'm using wordpress now as a cms and it's not terrible. I'm 100% down to play a supporting role in code, but can't commit to leading until after I finish some other projects, perhaps not until January.
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i was looking at some wp plugins as well. there's several ones like gd star rating (http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/gd-star-rating/screenshots/), that might do the trick with some adjustments (again, i don't actually know much about that stuff)
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I think the forum could be a bit more strict, in how a map should follow the [M] map guidelines, but probably even more in how replies should be constructed, for example, any broad comment such as that the map is too small or the third too open should have a specific example. I understand that figuring such things out on your own might be better, but specifics allow for discussions in a better way, which I think are essential for an open and balanced mind.
I have a line of thought about map design and scouting and getting used to new maps and what is a new map, but need to define it before posting.
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On September 28 2012 17:54 Duvon wrote:
I think the forum could be a bit more strict, in how a map should follow the [M] map guidelines, but probably even more in how replies should be constructed, for example, any broad comment such as that the map is too small or the third too open should have a specific example. I understand that figuring such things out on your own might be better, but specifics allow for discussions in a better way, which I think are essential for an open and balanced mind.
I have a line of thought about map design and scouting and getting used to new maps and what is a new map, but need to define it before posting.
I agree with this. For example the strategy forums have a rather strict system which works, maybe the same could be applied on these forums if there were to be more mods for this section.
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On September 29 2012 12:37 eTcetRa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 17:54 Duvon wrote:
I think the forum could be a bit more strict, in how a map should follow the [M] map guidelines, but probably even more in how replies should be constructed, for example, any broad comment such as that the map is too small or the third too open should have a specific example. I understand that figuring such things out on your own might be better, but specifics allow for discussions in a better way, which I think are essential for an open and balanced mind.
I have a line of thought about map design and scouting and getting used to new maps and what is a new map, but need to define it before posting. I agree with this. For example the strategy forums have a rather strict system which works, maybe the same could be applied on these forums if there were to be more mods for this section.
Though, there also needs to be an incentive to post. How to get that I'm clueless on.
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The problem is that maps aren't able to get enough validation in this forum, all they can get is a large number of replies, which is somewhat of a validation but doesn't tell tournaments or the majority of SC2 gamers whether the map is actually good or not, only that it has led to a lot of conversation (maybe it leads to divided opinions rather than lots of support).
The solution is simple: We need a review system with ratings for each of the aspects of the map and an overall rating, and these reviews need to be divided into demographic categories that make it easy to see whether a map is good or not. The categories would be: Experienced Map makers, Pro gamers or High masters/GM players, and the Public (anyone and everyone). If a map is well-regarded across all three demographics, then it becomes much clearer to see that it is a good map. Right now you would have to read every response, inspect the names of each person, and create some very vague aggregated opinion in your head about what people think, it's too difficult and too open to interpretation.
This is why the TL Map Contest was such a success, because professionals (TL Staff, pro map makers) approved of all the finalist maps, and then the public approved of the winning maps, so tournament organizer could be confident that the maps were of good enough quality to at least try for a season within their tournament.
This is also why review aggregate websites like Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes so popular, despite their flaws they are able to give you a fairly good, professional opinion as well as a public opinion on how the product - be it a game or movie or whatever - has been received. If we can get a map equivalent of Metacritic, then tournaments would almost look silly for not trying maps that are very highly regarded. A tournament ignoring such well regarded maps across all demographics would be like a movie aficionado never watching Citizen Kane or Casablanca, or a music aficionado never listening to Bob Dylan or Pink Floyd (obviously a bit different with music becausetaste is subjective but you get the idea). So once maps have enough validation from the various demographics I am confident that tournaments will take notice.
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On September 24 2012 23:51 Barrin wrote:
But don't just talk about other people's maps. PLAY THEM. In fact, start a "map night" club (one for NA, one for EU,) where once a week you all get together on a saturday night (or whatever works) and play the shit out of just one or two [motm finalist] maps. Get this maps on the front page of the melee list. *ahem*
This is acutally one of my favorite parts of sc2 right now, trying out new maps. everytime i end up playing with someone i go for a map ive found on tl that hasnt really had any exposure, i enjoy finding the new things and we usually end up playing 5-15 games a night on that particular map ( assuming its not god awful )
as of late i dont really have anyone to play like this with but if theres anyone else up for it be sure to pm me. (EU)
also @ ArcticRaven, I loved absolution:D
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We could also have something similar to the practice partner thread but for testing new maps. I would definitely be up for playing these maps but I don't have any friends who play SC2 and as of now it's not too easy finding partners at my level to play (gold EU if anyone wants to play with me just PM).
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EPT
