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Currently the US has a large technical lead on China, however, with decreased military spending in the US and increased spending in China, plus their ability to reverse engineer our innovations, they are catching up.
The US has gained the lead they have now by pursuing large military advancements meant to give the US a leg up so large that another army could not approach a valid way to counter it, such as the B-2 bomber, or the modern F-22 program.
The next generation of USA military strategy will revolve around smaller, incredibly fast innovations, keeping us always an advantage on our competition, regardless on the differences of resources invester. We are currently building our infrastructure to support this kind of strategy.
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On August 10 2012 19:10 Skilledblob wrote: pointless post when both countries have lots of a-bombs
A-bombs don't mean anything. In this case at least I trust Baudrillard.
You mean pointless post when the destruction of either country by the other would not only sink the aggressor's economy, but also drive the world into a fatal depression that would probably make the one right now look like a tea party.
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I don't understand this whole concept of worldwide depression. That seems like a really retarded concept to me. It's not like the world would suddenly just becomes a whole lot poorer because two countries went to war and stopped trading. It's more like the powers that be would shit around and just be like yeah, instead of giving people stuff for free, we'll let them starve and suffer because that's the rules of our system.
When in reality every economic system is a contrived artifice developed to give a thin veneer of equality and arbitration to the distribution of resources. If the human race really wanted to not be fucking hungry and poor, we could easily make it happen. But no, we'll just sit around following a stupid economic system that tells us because X and Y number have gone down, now we will suffer Z amount. Market system so stupid when it's driven by confidence and fear.
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Zurich15306 Posts
On August 11 2012 07:24 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 03:42 zatic wrote:On August 11 2012 03:22 zalz wrote: 1) Central-Africa 2) Central-Asia 3) Eastern Russia 4) Western China 5) Heartland-America Rural Australia, Oceania, South America, Central America? I would argue anything Asia, Europe, or NA would be a bad idea for chances of fallout and billions of people seeking refuge from fallout. To enforce the point that major cities would be leveled: Receiving multiple hits doesn't mean several single nukes on Manhatten. Major cities would be targeted by MRVs / MIRVs, meaning that the entire area would be leveled by a dozen or more nukes. It would not look like Nagasaki. There would be literally nothing left but nuclear desert for miles and miles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targetable_reentry_vehicle Carpet nuking, as you state, is the correct way to perform a counter-value strike. But most (about 90%) of global nuclear arsenals, are, comfortingly, aimed at each other as counter-force options. For example, worst hit area in America would probably be Cheyenne Mountain, followed by the Vandenburg, Whiteman, Malmstrom, Minot, Warren, Offut, and Barksdale Air Force Bases. For example, the standard assumption is that Russia has between two hundred to five hundred nuclear warheads aimed at Cheyenne Mountain alone. Each warhead is between 220kt to 3MT of yield, for a total tonnage of 40MT to 1.5GT in yield, delivered within what is likely a two hour window. That means that, on average, in those 2 hours, Cheyenne Mountain will be hit with about one nuke every thirty seconds, with each nuke being at least 10 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb. A glassing of NYC would not even come close to the absolute moonscaping that will occur to most of Wyoming. I was always wondering about that. Given a time frame of about 8 minutes before MAD, how many nukes can potentially hit a single target in continuous succession? I mean the fireball of the first nuke would be still there for minutes - I would imagine it is very uncertain if a second (or third, etc) missile fired into the raging plasma already there would even detonate. Igniting nuclear weapons is a rather complicated business after all. I find it hard to believe that an terminal entry vehicle would even work properly when it enters an ongoing nuclear explosion.
But I guess that's one of the things you just can't test properly. On the other hand I wouldn't have put it past the soviets to chain-nuke some strip in the arctic just for the heck of it.
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On August 11 2012 07:17 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 03:00 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 11 2012 02:09 zalz wrote:On August 11 2012 01:16 rei wrote:dude, rights are not real, rights are made up by a group of owners so that they can own the rest of the people in their country. Take USA for example, somehow slavery is left out? oh wait that's not a surprise since the founding fathers of the USA are slave owners, they just wanted to keep on owning after they fought for freedom against the British oppressor. If you think your country will uphold it's rights when it matters to most look no further than The japanese Americans during WW2USA calling anyone else in the world lacking of human rights is the biggest hypocrisy of all time in a global magnitude. Might it be a small difference that the US regrets the internment whilst other nations, like North-Korea just to name one, continues to this day to imprison, torture, and murder its own citizens for crimes such as: Being the child of someone that owns a radio able to receive South-Korean transmissions? The US has has the moral authority to demand that other nations step up their human rights record. There are people rotting away in prisons for no crime other than expressing an opinion. You make light of human right violations across the world when you attempt to portray their plight as similar to the US. It's easy to claim the US regrets the internment half a century after the fact when Japan is a staunch US ally. They obviously don't regret the torture and internment of many Middle Eastern and African jihadists considering they are still actively torturing, imprisoning, and shipping them to other countries to be tortured. A country that's assassinated democratically elected leaders, propped up dictatorships, and supplied weapons to genocidal regimes does not have any moral authority. One thing I consistently don't understand is how people can give moral authority to any state or government at all. People have morals, because they are capable of making moral decisions. States, like corporations, are not programmed to have morals at all. States pursue interests for the welfare of their citizens; corporations pursue profits for the benefit of their shareholders. From a moral standpoint, they are no different from computers programmed to do certain tasks. Furthermore, given how the world, viewed from the standpoint of these large institutions, is an anarchy, then nations/corps that stray from the programmed objectives are quickly eliminated. Over time, only the nations that can best play this game survive. Sad, but true. Hence, it is incorrect, as citizens, to expect our governments to behave in a moral fashion. The most we can hope for is that our governments uphold our interests, in whatever manner is most efficient. If that means adopting a veneer of morality to engender soft power, then so be it; however, we must not mistake that pursuit of morality as anything more than a means to the ends the greater national interest.
But the people who run governments and corporations are people too, surely they have morals? I understand that they may be heavily influenced by those who vote them into power, and many may change their stances on various issues in an effort to appeal to the most people, or find ways to make concessions. But fundamentally they have their own beliefs, and many are entrenched in them enough that they do not change just because the people disapprove of some of their policies (Ron Paul Revolution!!!! :D). I would think that they would also have to prove it well by giving examples from their past history working with other people or organizations, or showing what motions he/she has supported as a lawmaker.
Also you can't program a leader with the information needed to respond to every potential event in a president's term (it would probably be impossible to predict). That's why it makes a lot more sense that people simply try to ensure that their leader is the embodiment of moral values that they approve of, so that when he/she is forced to react to unexpected circumstances in his/her term, they can trust that such independent decisions will be made on a sound basis.
But even if they our leaders were like computers, and they didn't have any moral standards or values (or perhaps the influence of the people is so strong that it overrides their personal convictions) - I don't see how it follows that people shouldn't expect their governments to behave morally. Like if that's one of the main interests of the people - that the impoverished are helped, that disaster victims are given relief, that countries being bombed by crazed dictators are being given support (that is, supporting the rebels ), then its just like any other election issue that they expect to be fulfilled. Why can't having certain moral values be part of "government upholding our interests"?
Unless you're talking about a very abstract notion of state or government, as a concept. But your usage implies that you are talking about how its generally perceived in reality, i.e. complete with leaders and other representatives and officials.
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On August 11 2012 08:46 RoyGBiv_13 wrote: Currently the US has a large technical lead on China, however, with decreased military spending in the US and increased spending in China, plus their ability to reverse engineer our innovations, they are catching up.
The US has gained the lead they have now by pursuing large military advancements meant to give the US a leg up so large that another army could not approach a valid way to counter it, such as the B-2 bomber, or the modern F-22 program.
The next generation of USA military strategy will revolve around smaller, incredibly fast innovations, keeping us always an advantage on our competition, regardless on the differences of resources invester. We are currently building our infrastructure to support this kind of strategy.
Do you have any articles to support the idea that the next generation of US military strategy revolves around these smaller, incredibly fast innovations?
Last I've heard the US has been building up into a massive military-industrial complex that is only getting larger, not smaller. During the early Bush administration Rumsfeld (IIRC, not completely certain) wanted to push for a reduction in spending and a focus on R&D, to skip the mass manufacture of the current generation of weapons and focus on developing the next generation before going into manufacture. But the military lobbyists were too strong and forced the US government to mass produce the current generation of weapons such as the F-22 (now no longer being produced) and the F-35, thus maintaining the current (and massive) level of military spending.
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I don't know the technical term for it, but there's a phenomenon where people who are divorced from the ground-level details of something can have a great deal of emotional and moral detachment when making decisions, which leads to really inhumane policies/actions. Sort of like pilots who carpet bomb cities then go home to get a good night's sleep. Doesn't bother them too badly if they don't think about it because they didn't actually see the people dying. They just flipped a switch and pressed a button.
There are also people who just flat out have a high capacity for evil.
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On August 11 2012 09:27 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 07:24 Shady Sands wrote:On August 11 2012 03:42 zatic wrote:On August 11 2012 03:22 zalz wrote: 1) Central-Africa 2) Central-Asia 3) Eastern Russia 4) Western China 5) Heartland-America Rural Australia, Oceania, South America, Central America? I would argue anything Asia, Europe, or NA would be a bad idea for chances of fallout and billions of people seeking refuge from fallout. To enforce the point that major cities would be leveled: Receiving multiple hits doesn't mean several single nukes on Manhatten. Major cities would be targeted by MRVs / MIRVs, meaning that the entire area would be leveled by a dozen or more nukes. It would not look like Nagasaki. There would be literally nothing left but nuclear desert for miles and miles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_independently_targetable_reentry_vehicle Carpet nuking, as you state, is the correct way to perform a counter-value strike. But most (about 90%) of global nuclear arsenals, are, comfortingly, aimed at each other as counter-force options. For example, worst hit area in America would probably be Cheyenne Mountain, followed by the Vandenburg, Whiteman, Malmstrom, Minot, Warren, Offut, and Barksdale Air Force Bases. For example, the standard assumption is that Russia has between two hundred to five hundred nuclear warheads aimed at Cheyenne Mountain alone. Each warhead is between 220kt to 3MT of yield, for a total tonnage of 40MT to 1.5GT in yield, delivered within what is likely a two hour window. That means that, on average, in those 2 hours, Cheyenne Mountain will be hit with about one nuke every thirty seconds, with each nuke being at least 10 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb. A glassing of NYC would not even come close to the absolute moonscaping that will occur to most of Wyoming. I was always wondering about that. Given a time frame of about 8 minutes before MAD, how many nukes can potentially hit a single target in continuous succession? I mean the fireball of the first nuke would be still there for minutes - I would imagine it is very uncertain if a second (or third, etc) missile fired into the raging plasma already there would even detonate. Igniting nuclear weapons is a rather complicated business after all. I find it hard to believe that an terminal entry vehicle would even work properly when it enters an ongoing nuclear explosion. But I guess that's one of the things you just can't test properly. On the other hand I wouldn't have put it past the soviets to chain-nuke some strip in the arctic just for the heck of it.
Actually, both the US and Russia tested this out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_Pack
+ Show Spoiler [Wiki article] +According to the Dense Pack strategy, a series of ten to twelve hardened silos would be grouped closely together in a line. This line of silos would generally run north-to-south, as the primary flight path for Soviet inbound nuclear missiles would be expected to come from the north over the North Pole. The rationale for this thinking went like this: As the first inbound warhead detonates over its target silo, it would throw a large cloud of debris over the entire missile field. Every other warhead targeted on that missile field would have to travel through that debris cloud to reach its target, and it was theorized that the act of traveling through that debris cloud would "trash" the warhead before it could detonate. Every successful explosion over the missile field would throw more debris up into the air, increasing the chances that each successive warhead would be destroyed before it could trigger. Due to the hardened nature of the missile silos, the military believed that the silos could be destroyed only by a direct hit from a nuclear warhead; warhead air bursts were believed to be ineffective to the task of penetrating the armored silos, as were any "near-miss" ground bursts that might occur from an inaccurate ballistic trajectory.
The proposed Dense Pack initiative met with strong criticism in the media and in the government, and the idea was never implemented. Detractors of the Dense Pack strategy pointed out a number of flaws. First, the advent of Multiple Independently-targetable Reentry Vehicles, or MIRV, negated the concept due to their ability to conduct a time-on-target barrage. Simply put, a single missile could deliver a volley of three to twelve warheads to the target where they could each detonate at approximately the same time, thus dispensing with the disruptive debris cloud that Dense Pack relies upon for protection. Secondly, there were widespread doubts at the time that the hardened nature of the armored missile silos were as robust as the military claimed, leading to worries that a single warhead could in fact destroy an entire Dense Pack missile field. Finally, Dense Pack was perceived by some to be a provocative, if not overtly hostile measure at a time when nuclear warfare seemed to be a distinct possibility.
Relevant part bolded for emphasis.
What is far more likely would be clusters of warheads arriving in waves. So, in the Cheyenne Mountain example, the first wave might be 100 warheads, spaced out in 30km/30km grid, all detonating high in the atmosphere, to blanket the sky with EM radiation and degrade any wireless comms. Second wave, 100 warheads, spaced out in a 5km/5km grid, all detonating within 3-5 seconds of each other to scrub the surface of the mountain with overpressure and heat. The third wave might come about 10 minutes later, and be 100 warheads programmed for ground detonation in a slightly rolling pattern, using the principle of acoustic resonance to generate the seismic waves necessary to collapse the underground bunkers. The fourth and fifth waves are purely optional, but if I was doing the targetting, they would include bunker-busting munitions aimed at the underground water reservoir, and cobalt munitions to induce long-term surface radioactivity and trap the survivors within the mountain for years.
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By detonating 100 nuclear warheads in a resonance frequency pattern, a localized earthquake can be induced.
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Overall, what will happen is that the surface of the mountain will be glassed, the interior of the mountain will have collapsed inward, and then the whole area will be given a light dusting of cobalt-60, which produces lethal amounts of surface radiation for 8-10 years after the strike. Everything up to six or seven hundred miles downwind of Cheyenne Mountain, and within a 50 mile radius, will likely die. This would include significant chunks of Colorado and Kansas.
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Zurich15306 Posts
Well what I get from this is that they actually didn't test it out and that it's all theorycrafting.
So nobody really knows how reliable an additional nuke would be on an already nuked area. But yeah, in almost all cases MRVs deliver such ridiculous destruction that there is just nothing left at all. Just a second strike on the same area wouldn't necessarily detonate - but in almost all cases it wouldn't be needed.
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On August 11 2012 07:17 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 03:00 StorkHwaiting wrote:On August 11 2012 02:09 zalz wrote:On August 11 2012 01:16 rei wrote:dude, rights are not real, rights are made up by a group of owners so that they can own the rest of the people in their country. Take USA for example, somehow slavery is left out? oh wait that's not a surprise since the founding fathers of the USA are slave owners, they just wanted to keep on owning after they fought for freedom against the British oppressor. If you think your country will uphold it's rights when it matters to most look no further than The japanese Americans during WW2USA calling anyone else in the world lacking of human rights is the biggest hypocrisy of all time in a global magnitude. Might it be a small difference that the US regrets the internment whilst other nations, like North-Korea just to name one, continues to this day to imprison, torture, and murder its own citizens for crimes such as: Being the child of someone that owns a radio able to receive South-Korean transmissions? The US has has the moral authority to demand that other nations step up their human rights record. There are people rotting away in prisons for no crime other than expressing an opinion. You make light of human right violations across the world when you attempt to portray their plight as similar to the US. It's easy to claim the US regrets the internment half a century after the fact when Japan is a staunch US ally. They obviously don't regret the torture and internment of many Middle Eastern and African jihadists considering they are still actively torturing, imprisoning, and shipping them to other countries to be tortured. A country that's assassinated democratically elected leaders, propped up dictatorships, and supplied weapons to genocidal regimes does not have any moral authority. One thing I consistently don't understand is how people can give moral authority to any state or government at all. People have morals, because they are capable of making moral decisions. States, like corporations, are not programmed to have morals at all. States pursue interests for the welfare of their citizens; corporations pursue profits for the benefit of their shareholders. From a moral standpoint, they are no different from computers programmed to do certain tasks. Furthermore, given how the world, viewed from the standpoint of these large institutions, is an anarchy, then nations/corps that stray from the programmed objectives are quickly eliminated. Over time, only the nations that can best play this game survive. Sad, but true. Hence, it is incorrect, as citizens, to expect our governments to behave in a moral fashion. The most we can hope for is that our governments uphold our interests, in whatever manner is most efficient. If that means adopting a veneer of morality to engender soft power, then so be it; however, we must not mistake that pursuit of morality as anything more than a means to the ends the greater national interest.
While your analysis is already good, it lacks one major point: Large organisations of any type of unit that work together (e.g. an ant- or beehive, corporations, gouvernments, religious institutions) do NOT care about their individual units (e.g. citizens or shareholders) in the first place.
Once a certain structure between units becomes complex enough its entirety shows signs of "life" that surpass that of the individual by far. (Think of the movement of bird swarms for example.)
What this means in practice is that the first and foremost goal of any corporation or state is not the well-being of its members but self-preservation. Nothing stands above that. That's also why it's completely viable to anaylze a states actions due to their moral character. However, that endeavour is as promising as looking for moral value in the decisions of a bee- or anthive: Morally "correct" actions of a state or corperation are either cooincidental or beneficial for their self-preservation in the long run (this CAN mean that they showcase the morality of the majority of their individual units). They aren't performed because of their moral alignement in the first place.
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On August 11 2012 03:22 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:31 Rice wrote: Im a bit uneducated on military happenings... but, hypothetically, what is the process behind actually nuking a country? Like does Obama just order some high ranking general to press a big red button? Would it be voted on by a military council? Congress? What would be the process? + Show Spoiler +It isn't exactly clear how each country has its own chain of command, but the US president has acces to the nuclear launch codes at all time, reffered to as the nuclear football.
In theory, the US president could call a nuclear strike, though in practice it is highly unlikely that a US president would order a first-strike.
There is actually a school of thought that revolves around nuclear warfare and how a large scale nuclear exchange would work in practice. Most people agree that MAD is the only outcome, but some people argue that there are first-strike scenarios where the counter-attack can be limited.
The problem is mostly in escalation.
Some nuclear exchange scenarios can be expected to remain regional, like North/South-Korea, India/Pakistan, Israel/middle-east, whilst others are global nuclear exchanges like Russia/America.
Whilst it is true that there are enough nuclear weapons to destroy the entire earth, a realistic scenario would most likely spare regions that are of little strategical or economical value. This is pretty much limited to areas with a low people/square mile.
It is possible to target every part of the world, but in practice, it would not be an effective way to use nuclear weapons.
For example, a nuclear weapon at the heart of NY city would not only kill millions of people, it would also inflict infrastructural damage, kill an extreme amount of important people, and break moral. The loss of New York alone would send America in an economical crisis that it would not recover from for decades.
Now, to cover every part of the earth, you need to spread the nukes out evenly, but that isn't a smart move to do, because you don't know:
1) Which nukes will fail 2) Which nukes are taken out before they can be deployed
Adding onto this uncertainty is the fact that not all nuclear strikes are of equal value.
A nuclear strike on the Trinity nuclear testing grounds would not inflict any damage on the US, nor would many heartland strikes.
Regions have numerical values based on various factors like economical, strategical or number of citizens. Taking out major cities or infrastructures can make relief impossible, thus contributing to more deaths and destruction.
As such, it is unlikely that the entire would would ever be destroyed in a nuclear war. High-value targets like New York would most likely receive multiple strikes, whereas areas of low value might not be targetted at all, simply because they would not survive the aftermath anyway.
Regional values are different depending on first strike, reactionary strike, or simultanious strike.
For example, high value first-strike targets are enemy nuclear bases, crippling the possibility of a counter-attack, whilst reactionairy strikes are aimed at destroying the enemies country altogether, because your own loss is already unavoidable, thus prioritising governmental and economic hubs, like Washington.
Further down the list of priorities are capitals of nations that are thoroughly aligned with the target nation, so for example in a Russia/America exchange, Tokyo would undoubtedly be attacked.
The largest threat in a full nuclear exchange is the escalation. During the period in which the nuclear missiles are in the air, the realization will occur to either parties that once the strikes are finished, neither side will be a super, or even regional power.
Long-term planning, of the machivallian kind, shows that firing on unrelated super powers is a smart move. After all, if America and Russia exchanged nuclear strikes, but avoided China, the winner of that war would undoubtedly be China.
Thus, the biggest fear is the involvement of other super and regional powers, which will trigger even more nuclear strikes on more or less all major nations, purely in the hope of assuring a strong post-nuclear world position.
If you want to avoid the nuclear holocaust, you would be best off living in the following regions, going from best to worst: 1) Central-Africa 2) Central-Asia 3) Eastern Russia 4) Western China 5) Heartland-America Europe would most likely suffer the highest number of casualties %-wise, largely due to most of the population living in urban regions, the total living space being very small, and the close proximity to Russia, which not only makes the impact-time short, but also makes it a crucial target for destruction for the post-nuclear world. Which government has the best chance of survival, that remains to be seen. The question mostly comes down to whether any nation will be able to rally the forces in time to keep people from "seceding" from their respective nations.
LOL what about every part of Canada outside of capital cities and southern Ontario? I don't see them wasting the 1000's of nukes it would take to destroy everything up here. Unless they're going to spread out nukes evenly across the globe, but that has already been mentioned as unlikely.
This is an interesting topic though.
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On August 11 2012 09:18 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 19:10 Skilledblob wrote: pointless post when both countries have lots of a-bombs A-bombs don't mean anything. In this case at least I trust Baudrillard. You mean pointless post when the destruction of either country by the other would not only sink the aggressor's economy, but also drive the world into a fatal depression that would probably make the one right now look like a tea party.
no this discussion is pointless. the defence shields are not gonna work end of story.
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On August 10 2012 19:10 Skilledblob wrote: pointless post when both countries have lots of a-bombs Interesting blog to read, but I myself did a similar report for my American foreign policy ass almost a year ago, so I can't help but chime in on this one.
America has a HUGE nuke arsenal that could be used to decimate 90% of china's population while conversely losing at most 50% of its own. Why do I say this?
Because china only has 20 ICBMs (and only 18 that are capable of striking the USA), conversely, America has about 475 nuclear warheads that simply need to be redirected from Russia to china all without a single foot on Chinese soil.
Also, there is dissent among those whom speak English and are well educated in china. It's not like they will willingly be drafted into the Chinese military, and while the Chinese army, navy, and air force is larger than ours, it is only by a mere 400,000 and most soldiers are poorly trained. Mass mobilizations and drafts would FAIL epically (just as they did during the Maoist era). Most of their technology is dated, their army has no experience with foreign wars, their marine corps is only 10,000 compared to our bolstering 242,000.
And how do I know all of this? My major is Chinese and my minor is International Security Studies.
My stand is that this will not escalate beyond a form of cold war. This is after all, TvT were talking about. Being the first to attack is always a bad idea... Unless you can win the engagement.
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On August 11 2012 23:13 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 19:10 Skilledblob wrote: pointless post when both countries have lots of a-bombs Because china only has 20 ICBMs (and only 18 that are capable of striking the USA), conversely, America has about 475 nuclear warheads that simply need to be redirected from Russia to china all without a single foot on Chinese soil. Also, there is dissent among those whom speak English and are well educated in china. It's not like they will willingly be drafted into the Chinese military, and while the Chinese army, navy, and air force is larger than ours, it is only by a mere 400,000 and most soldiers are poorly trained. Mass mobilizations and drafts would FAIL epically (just as they did during the Maoist era). Most of their technology is dated, their army has no experience with foreign wars, their marine corps is only 10,000 compared to our bolstering 242,000.
even if China would be invaded the US would be unable to conquer it. And after the Vietnam war everybody should know that these number games dont mean anything.
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On August 11 2012 23:13 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 19:10 Skilledblob wrote: pointless post when both countries have lots of a-bombs Interesting blog to read, but I myself did a similar report for my American foreign policy ass almost a year ago, so I can't help but chime in on this one. America has a HUGE nuke arsenal that could be used to decimate 90% of china's population while conversely losing at most 50% of its own. Why do I say this? Because china only has 20 ICBMs (and only 18 that are capable of striking the USA), conversely, America has about 475 nuclear warheads that simply need to be redirected from Russia to china all without a single foot on Chinese soil. Also, there is dissent among those whom speak English and are well educated in china. It's not like they will willingly be drafted into the Chinese military, and while the Chinese army, navy, and air force is larger than ours, it is only by a mere 400,000 and most soldiers are poorly trained. Mass mobilizations and drafts would FAIL epically (just as they did during the Maoist era). Most of their technology is dated, their army has no experience with foreign wars, their marine corps is only 10,000 compared to our bolstering 242,000. And how do I know all of this? My major is Chinese and my minor is International Security Studies. My stand is that this will not escalate beyond a form of cold war. This is after all, TvT were talking about. Being the first to attack is always a bad idea... Unless you can win the engagement.
I dont understand how "being the first to attack" could ever be a bad thing in a nuclear war. (I'm talking if both countries were guaranteed to use nukes anyways) Could you perhaps enlighten us?(not trying to be pretentious or anything, im genuinely curious as to how it could be disadvantageous to strike first in a nuclear scenario)
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On August 12 2012 02:07 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 23:13 Enders116 wrote:On August 10 2012 19:10 Skilledblob wrote: pointless post when both countries have lots of a-bombs Because china only has 20 ICBMs (and only 18 that are capable of striking the USA), conversely, America has about 475 nuclear warheads that simply need to be redirected from Russia to china all without a single foot on Chinese soil. Also, there is dissent among those whom speak English and are well educated in china. It's not like they will willingly be drafted into the Chinese military, and while the Chinese army, navy, and air force is larger than ours, it is only by a mere 400,000 and most soldiers are poorly trained. Mass mobilizations and drafts would FAIL epically (just as they did during the Maoist era). Most of their technology is dated, their army has no experience with foreign wars, their marine corps is only 10,000 compared to our bolstering 242,000. even if China would be invaded the US would be unable to conquer it. And after the Vietnam war everybody should know that these number games dont mean anything. Vietnam was different. The commies were safely behind their own lines for more than half of its duration, and smuggled in insurgents through thick jungles.
Something else to keep in mind: just because china is communist doesn't mean that it's like a police state, so as it is now, there will be people happily ready to give up their so called leaders in exchange for real change. Currently, less than .1% of china's population is willing to actually serve their country. America's military population is somewhere between .5-.9% (guestimation), based on a population of 300 million citizens and 2.4 million active/reserve duty servicemen and women.
As stated before, neither side of the pacific would be stupid or maniacal enough to start the war.
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On August 12 2012 09:26 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:07 Skilledblob wrote:On August 11 2012 23:13 Enders116 wrote:On August 10 2012 19:10 Skilledblob wrote: pointless post when both countries have lots of a-bombs Because china only has 20 ICBMs (and only 18 that are capable of striking the USA), conversely, America has about 475 nuclear warheads that simply need to be redirected from Russia to china all without a single foot on Chinese soil. Also, there is dissent among those whom speak English and are well educated in china. It's not like they will willingly be drafted into the Chinese military, and while the Chinese army, navy, and air force is larger than ours, it is only by a mere 400,000 and most soldiers are poorly trained. Mass mobilizations and drafts would FAIL epically (just as they did during the Maoist era). Most of their technology is dated, their army has no experience with foreign wars, their marine corps is only 10,000 compared to our bolstering 242,000. even if China would be invaded the US would be unable to conquer it. And after the Vietnam war everybody should know that these number games dont mean anything. Vietnam was different. The commies were safely behind their own lines for more than half of its duration, and smuggled in insurgents through thick jungles. Something else to keep in mind: just because china is communist doesn't mean that it's like a police state, so as it is now, there will be people happily ready to give up their so called leaders in exchange for real change. Currently, less than .1% of china's population is willing to actually serve their country. America's military population is somewhere between .5-.9% (guestimation), based on a population of 300 million citizens and 2.4 million active/reserve duty servicemen and women. As stated before, neither side of the pacific would be stupid or maniacal enough to start the war.
Why do you assume war between China and the US have to go on until one government or the other is gone?
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I dont understand all this debate about A-bombs, there are other ways to win 'wars' without starting a 'war':
eg China sends swarms of hot asian chicks to seduce all American men generation after generation, and dilute the gene pool until all American men literally become Chinese etc etc.
rofl
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