EPTMad Men Mafia - Page 43
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
That list came at a time where your main hope was to change our focus from you. Though you were fortunate enough to not be in the main spotlight due to other peoples fuck ups. Take this as a slight compliment. Because listing without much basis at such an early time in the game as it was, would be plain stupid as a townie. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On August 06 2012 15:17 s0Lstice wrote: xsebt, what is your read on Toad right now? I feel like I need more to conclude things about him. It seems like he is really trying to catch scum. Voting patterns will be essential for calling him out I feel. But again, quite indifferent atm. And you're not gonna mislead me more than this. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
On August 05 2012 08:06 XsebT wrote: Sorry for being quite inactive this first day (party friday gone wild). Now finally back with a laptop.  I've been reading through the thread, and I'm stuck on a vote on either prplhz or wgb, though a day one lynch is always based on very fluffy arguments. Initially wgb was overreacting to the accusations against him (wtf self vote), plus his now very defensive posture - scummy behaviour in my book. Prplhz has since been fucking up quite badly... lol. Not sure how to take it. No matter if he is scum or not, he is not playing to his team's advantage. I can go on board with this idea, though I'm veeery tempted to vote wbg coz of that self vote. Toadesstern will of course also be very high on my list, should prplhz flip town - considering how hard he is pressing for this lynch. I'm asking because of this. His scum hunting since then has negated what you saw as an egregiously hard push to get a townie lynched? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
In addition his argument against prplhz seemed very forced. It was basically "prplhz is fucking up" which is not a reason to call someone scum. The bandwagon was strong (and granted my own read was wrong) but the fact that xsebt's only thoughts on d1 had to do with the two bandwagons makes it seem as if he had no actual opinions of his own, particularly when the comments he actually did make are incredibly weak. Unless something changes drastically my vote is on Xsebt today. ##vote Xsebt | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
Im gonna sleep a few more hours now.. Heavy hangover. :-\ | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 06 2012 15:27 XsebT wrote: Yes, in calling you out as mafia I also suggest that you lie. Jeez lol. That list came at a time where your main hope was to change our focus from you. Though you were fortunate enough to not be in the main spotlight due to other peoples fuck ups. Take this as a slight compliment. Because listing without much basis at such an early time in the game as it was, would be plain stupid as a townie. Ok cool this makes you town I think as a scum player should know the correct argument for why I would still be scum. A scum player should try to link me to the night kill of sloosh in some way, but xsebt completely ignores this. Basically scum knew that by roleblocking me, they would have a roleblock claim from me in public. Therefore they have come into today prepared to make the following arguments: 1) That my repeated calls for medics to protect sloosh were a gambit to distance myself from the NK, which was double-stack and 2) That by having the scum roleblocker roleblocking within the scum team I could claim RB'd without fear of couterclaim (they could also argue that sloosh was RB'd or something too) and that I did this to further get towncred, which they would argue I needed after D1. Xsebt hasn't thought this through at all, unless he's being cleverly dumb. I suppose it's still possible that scum were completely unaware about RB notifications but I find that unlikely. In any event, I'm going to chalk xsebt up as misguided town. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
Why would mafia roleblock you? The first thing you suggest is them wanting to disable your medic abilities. Yet why would the mafia roleblock you, thinking that you are a medic, if you called out for medic protection on Sloosh yourself? You are also confident it was a double stack on Sloosh. Nobody claimed VG yet. There may have been no VG shots last night. Also, On August 06 2012 16:24 talismania wrote: 2) That by having the scum roleblocker roleblocking within the scum team I could claim RB'd without fear of couterclaim I don't get this point. The mafia roleblocks one of their own... because they knew you would claim roleblock? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Yes I still think it was a doublestack and I think grush was vig'd. We'll see when other people post if it gets claimed or not. On the last point I'm talking from the perspective of the mafia team trying to call me mafia so I'm talking as if I'm mafia. It's convoluted sounding but really pretty simple: mafia can RB a member of their own team, say a goon or mason or whatever. Then that person can claim RB'd, for some weak towncred. Mafia in RBing me knew I would be notified, but weren't worried about it making me look townie because they knew they would be able to argue that there was just an intra-mafia RB on me because I would want towncred. They pair that argument with all my stuff about protecting sloosh as further evidence that I want towncred. etc etc. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 06 2012 10:00 VisceraEyes wrote: My take on talismania is that he's spent entirely too much time trying to figure out who the blue roles are and entirely too little time talking about what he finds suspicious or who he finds suspicious. Posts like this: lead me to believe that he's trying to justify his lack of having an opinion of....like anyone. He just goes after whomever is the flavor of the page asking inane questions and then does not give his opinion or any conclusions he's drawn. What I find to be the most suspicious however is his unrepentant attempt at rolefishing. Like...come on guy. COME ON!!! It doesn't get any more anti-town than trying to fish for information about everyone's roles. Yet talismania has repeatedly asked for nameclaims from the town, or asked if people are breadcrumbing X, or referring to people by their claimed character name. It's all BS and I want it out of my town. One of the hallmarks of scum play is that they tend to be lazy when making their cases. Townies go through the thread sometimes multiple times. Townies read filters. Scum latch onto one or two things, usually things that just happened recently in the thread, and make a case out of it. The end result is that they make cases for the wrong reasons. This what just happened with VE, in my opinion. VE states "...lead me to believe that he's trying to justify his lack of having an opinion of....like anyone." How can this be possible? Even xesbt, who isn't paying that much attention to the thread near as I can tell is calling me scum BECAUSE of the accusations and opinions I've had. VE ignores posts like these... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=20#386 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=20#399 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=27#538 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=29#563 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=35#696 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=37#726 ...in which I very clearly am stating plenty of opinions on many different players in the game. Yet VE says I don't have any? This is strong evidence number one that VE did not even bother to take the time to check my filter before writing his post. VE also writes "He just goes after whomever is the flavor of the page asking inane questions and then does not give his opinion or any conclusions he's drawn." Yet this is entirely inaccurate. In fact, sloosh, from whom he borrows the phrase "inane questions" initially thought I was scum because I was asking questions that were IRRELEVANT to the thread, certainly not pertaining to the "flavor of the page". VE got it backwards! And if he had checked my filter and re-read the thread, wouldn't he see all those questions I asked last night? Yeah no one was in the thread but me. That was me methodically going through the entire thread, picking out little nuggets of interest to pursue further. It clearly was not just asking questions about the "flavor of the page". This is strong evidence number two that VE did not really even think that hard about what he was accusing me of. He just rehashed it from memory, combining the phrase "inane questions" from sloosh along with the idea toad already posted that I just ask questions and don't necessarily follow through with conclusions. Finally, VE writes "What I find to be the most suspicious however is his unrepentant attempt at rolefishing. Like...come on guy. COME ON!!! It doesn't get any more anti-town than trying to fish for information about everyone's roles. Yet talismania has repeatedly asked for nameclaims from the town, or asked if people are breadcrumbing X, or referring to people by their claimed character name." There are several interesting observations here. First, I never really rolefished. I character-fished. True at one point I sort of wondered whether BC had made the characters true to the show. I mainly pursued it for my own amusement, to see if I was right. If a lot of things started lining up, I would feel like a genius. Also, it's interesting that he can't really bring himself to say why I would do this is as scum. He dances around the issue, calling it anti-town and saying later that he wants me "out of his town". This is very different from saying that something is scummy. And this is the thing that makes him "most suspicious" of me! Truth is - and he should realize this - what the hell would my motivation be for blatantly asking for people's character names as scum? I guess I'm capable of it but even I can't imagine myself doing something that puts me in the spotlight like that as scum. Second, this statement reveals in fact that he HAS been paying attention to my posting, at least early on. He remembered this obscure post I made about Hier: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#455 He also apparently references this post, which is the only one I can find in my filter where I refer to someone as their character name: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=29#569 So what gives? I think he clearly was paying attention early in the game, otherwise he doesn't remember those posts. My guess is he's continued to pay attention as the game goes on (he responds to my questions from last night, for instance). Yet when it comes to building a case on me, it's as though he's entirely ignorant of my filter except for little portions relevant to the character thing. The reason? He's not a townie seriously considering me as scum. He never would make the statements he does in this post if he were. He was simply rehashing what he thought were things other people had said, but ended up getting them a bit wrong. The case is lazy and unresearched, typical of scum play. I think VE is scum, and I think his case on me exemplifies why. There are some other reasons too. 1) His meta is off. Even comparing to bureaucracy he seemed to be his normal loose self. (he also makes much better cases there). 2) I think he was telling the truth about masoning WBG to some extent. I think he did want to prove his innocence with WBG. But I think it's because he's scum, not a townie looking to establish their innocence with a vet so they can focus on scumhunting or whatever reason he gave. 3) If he were scum he would definitely want the mason role, so that at least fits. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On August 05 2012 03:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay, everyone STOP. This lynch on WBG is not happening. Having PMed with him, I'm NOT of the opinion that he's scum and I think we should focus on other, actually scummy candidates. You guys are WIFOMing this lynch to shit. I fully support a talis lynch upon rereading. He literally asked for a NAMECLAIM from everyone guys. LITERALLY. ##Vote: talismania I think Bugs is town. I don't want to lynch him. slOosh, you in particular I want to hear more reasoning from. Your only gripe with him seems to be his read on prplhz - so...because you disagree with his read he's scum? Really? I don't like a grush lynch today either - it feels like a copout. But I totally can see a town Bugs wanting to lynch grush today. Grush was a key factor in the scum victory in LVI, for the same shit he's exhibiting now. However, I agree that we should give our vigs a chance to take care of him. We should be aiming for people we specifically think are scum, and for me that's not wherebugsgo. So I read the pm logs. (Two small corrections for wbg - 1. I claimed vanilla with trudy campbell, not talismania. 2. If you really can't see why I find your play scummy up to the point where you and erandorr started pissing on each other, and if you still think it has anything at all to do with whether or not outing the masons was a good idea, then you must have even bigger irl problems than I thought because I know you're not that stupid.) Anyway, I read the pm logs, and I can't figure out what in there made you think wbg is town. Care to enlighten me? @Talismania, yeahhh... I think there are good reasons to be suspicious of you but I don't think VE picked them. I might be willing to lynch him today. Talismania why didn't you post your terrible plan this game? Also On August 06 2012 15:58 wherebugsgo wrote: I forgot to mention that the most suspicious part is that he indicated a willingness to push suspicion onto Toad in the case that the guy he himself was voting(prplhz) flipped town. That's essentially skirting responsibility for the lynch in the case it goes bad bugs what about when toad says if prplh flipped town we should be killing you or talismania because of it? How is that different? | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
 but yea, I think VE would be a decent lynch today. we approached it differently but our conclusions were close enough. what does everyone else think about a VE lynch? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On August 06 2012 18:53 strongandbig wrote: So I read the pm logs. (Two small corrections for wbg - 1. I claimed vanilla with trudy campbell, not talismania. 2. If you really can't see why I find your play scummy up to the point where you and erandorr started pissing on each other, and if you still think it has anything at all to do with whether or not outing the masons was a good idea, then you must have even bigger irl problems than I thought because I know you're not that stupid.) Anyway, I read the pm logs, and I can't figure out what in there made you think wbg is town. Care to enlighten me? @Talismania, yeahhh... I think there are good reasons to be suspicious of you but I don't think VE picked them. I might be willing to lynch him today. Talismania why didn't you post your terrible plan this game? Also bugs what about when toad says if prplh flipped town we should be killing you or talismania because of it? How is that different? The difference is that I said "Either WBG or Prplhz has to be mafia, maybe even both [given my other assumptions are correct]". The thing is that I'm not trusting my other assumptions as much anymore after seeing prplhz flip green and I would have loved to get confirmation on those. I had both sloOsh and grush down as town (grush only slightly to be honest) but those two were not involved in anything that could give me information on someone else. That's why I said I wouldn't mind any of the vets being shot. I think both Eran and VE are town and I still think WBG is mafia. Seeing Eran or VE flip green however would have proven those basic assumptions to be true, making it way easier to push bugs. Sure we would have lost a green vet but I don't mind a 1v1 trade (technically a 1v2 because of prplhz I guess) and the certainty to know what's going on if that's what're getting. Again, I really don't like how bugs is going after some random dude today. Sure he has a point with what he's saying but the guy's called "Xsebt" and not Syllo, Bugs, foolishness or whoever you want. I'm just not into trusting a lynch based on a single quote that might as well just be a noob-sign if I don't know the guy. Sure let's keep on checking that guy and if multiple things like that happen I'm all up for lynching him but right now? No way. I'd like to see some more focus from Bugs today. And I especially want him to tell us something about people he consideres to be stable / or readable. The thing about noobs is that when they flip there's always a chance that the host suddenly decides to spin a wheel to decide which alignment the noob has instead of showing the real alignment. At least that's what it feels like to me. People make the most stupid kinds of mistakes, especially new guys and it's incredible easy to just go after new guys and point out "well that's bad" or "what he says is bullshit" because new guys do A LOT of mistakes, no matter of alignment. Because next thing to say after seeing them flip is: "well shit, dude was a noob and he fucked up big time. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW HE'S SO BAD?" And I hopefilly nailed LA, see you later :3 | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
I kinda agree with you on wbg. I have a twisted hunch that wbg is just trying to see how much stuff he can get away with as scum. The case on xsebt was far too facile and seemed subpar. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On August 06 2012 19:33 talismania wrote: Toad whatcha make of my case on VE? And why do you think he's town? I kinda agree with you on wbg. I have a twisted hunch that wbg is just trying to see how much stuff he can get away with as scum. The case on xsebt was far too facile and seemed subpar. haven't read it yet, or at least not carefully enough to talk about it. I got back to my place like an hour ago and I'm relaxing after my exam. Just got in here quickly checking things out and posted something I considered somewhat important. I don't really mind the case itself on Xsebt because the point he makes is true. It's just that it's a new guy again and like the last time he posted something that's based on one post that has something bad in it or is somehow supposed to definitly show what's going on in this guys head. You usually can do that kind of thing with vets, if they screw up like that I'm all up for lynching them. That's what I'm referring to when I said "people you consider to be stable". You can't do that with new guys because judging WHY someone did something (specific) is almost impossible if you have to include people making mistakes A LOT as well. When talking about new guys you usually want to get A LOT of data. You try to point out what is good or wrong with each point of data, put it all in a box, shake it a little and in the end you look at what kind of stuff in there is more often in there than it should be on average. That's why I pressed so much on that case about grush and glasse because you can't do a thing like that. He's doing the same thing again and bugs should know better than this. That's why I want him to talk about people he consideres to be "stable" because we want to find mafia, not people who are doing mistakes. If that were the goal I'd be posting nonstop. Just look at the very bottom of the log with Eran. Eran rightfully points out that jinglehell is kinda weird, that some of his posts have some issues and I end up saying that I had him down as dopey townie so far. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
The obvious one, CountDropula: 1. Uses terrible arguments to jump into my bandwagon: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=22#436 He is using my random votings from 3-5minutes into the day as reasoning to vote me. He is using my change of instances based on someone's else opinion as reasoning to vote me. Neither of these are scum traits, nor do they push scum agendas. It's entirely reasonable that a town player would change opinions within two posts, given that someone gives the proper arguments. Random voting someone for the sake of random voting, 5 minutes into the day, is pretty much a bait for scum. A real town would look at that and realize it's not a reason to push someone; It means NOTHING action-wise. Yet, he uses it to make my wagon gain strength. Granted, he never voted me; which is even worse: if you have a suspicion on someone, why would you not vote him? 2. Appeal to emotion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#459 (From Ace's thread on how-to-play-scum: a good scum trait is provoking emotion out of town) I don't know where did he pull that I had a burst of emotion. Besides, why bring it up at all? Again, it's one of these traits that don't determine someone's alignment - in fact, I'd argue it's much more likely that a town player show a burst of emotion than a scum player. Then he pulls some bullshit "You never answered XXX" when I answered everything. And I even said more a few posts later. He never counter-argued. Then he calls for some "concrete defense" when he nevers says what about my defense is not concrete. Simply put, he is throwing loaded(and VERY loaded) sentences to try and break me down. How the f* does someone give a "concrete defense" on this game? Fucking no one can do that without being an Innocent Child or confirmed-town-dayvig. There is also these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=40#800 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=41#802 These posts have no purpose except bringing emotion into the table and - hopefully for him - numbing people's judgement. This is pretty much a scum move. 3. Hypocrisy, blending in: On August 05 2012 03:16 CountDropula wrote: I really think the most important issue for us right now is getting people active. Were giving mafia too much space to hide. Nevertheless, I'm voting wbg right now though that can change. For sure watching zeph though, but I need a better case. This makes him look good right, he is calling for people to post... He has two freakingly terrible posts that only talk about one subject and is calling for people to be active That's trying to blend in without putting effort into the game. He is a lurker himself and is calling lurkers out. The more he post, the scummier he looks to me. Well, his first post is red as fuck already, but he is just being worse over time. So yeah, I'll keep reading stuff but my vote is on him already. ##Vote CountDropula Please don't ignore this guy. | ||
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