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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
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On June 21 2012 20:51 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:29 Tryagain4free wrote:On June 21 2012 18:16 -Archangel- wrote: Just yesterday on Ret stream he played Lucifron who managed to get into his main with 3-4 helions and roast some drones. Ret depended on 3 queens and not spines for defense. So I guess mass queens are not as good as some people think. Hey Archangel! Isn't it a bit misleading to talk about one game of Ret, who is known to be the greediest Zerg out there. And furthermore, how about giving some details? How many drones did he lose? Did Lucifron loose any of his hellions? What you did here does not proof anything. It's like saying something like: Yesterday I noticed a S class Mercedes with a flat tyre. So it seems S class Mercedes are not as good as people think... Well it is more then pure theorycrafting that a bunch of you whiners are doing in both threads. And all your arguments are "Zergs can now only defend with queens and no terran can do anything about it!1!" LOL. I didn't expect much from any of you anyways. If anyone is interested in details it was part of TSL4 qualifications yesterday so I am sure you can get replays from somewhere. Or look at Ret stream history. BTW, how do you expect me to give more effort when I am going to get completely worthless replies like this one: Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:58 scypio wrote:On June 21 2012 18:29 Tryagain4free wrote:On June 21 2012 18:16 -Archangel- wrote: Just yesterday on Ret stream he played Lucifron who managed to get into his main with 3-4 helions and roast some drones. Ret depended on 3 queens and not spines for defense. So I guess mass queens are not as good as some people think. Isn't it a bit misleading to talk about one game of Ret, who is known to be the greediest Zerg out there. And furthermore, how about giving some details? How many drones did he lose? Did Lucifron loose any of his hellions? This is so cool! Lucifron invests 150/100 into fact, 50/50 for a reactor and another 400 to get 4 hellions out. Boom! 600/200 spent to pressure the Zerg. In the meantime Ret spends 150 minerals to get an extra queen (or even 450, if he actually got 3 extra queens to go up to 5)... So Lucifron commits either 2x or 5x the resources on offense then Ret on defense and manages to roast some drones... how imbalanced!
Hello Archangel
I am not sure what you expected when you shared your initial comment about a random game without any details, but still trying to proof that queen "may not be as strong as people think". This kind of input may be ok by the standards of BattleNet forums or reddit. But this is TL. Here you will find a number of community members (terran, protoss and zerg), who are willing and capable of a legit Discussion about the latest patch in the game. And believe it or not, some people here actually care about the game beeing fun and balanced for all races. There is nothing wrong with some bias for your colours. As long as you are willing to take arguments from others in to account. At the same time you will find whiney and uninformed posts as well. Your comments belong in the second category.
I am well aware, that noone likes critisism in the first place. But if you read trough your comments, you may come to the conclusion, that your arguments were mediocre, to say the least. If you are able to step up the quality of your posts, your opinion will be appreciated. If not, go back to reddit.
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It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win.
100% agreed, and for casuals, it is the same with protoss, that is how terran got pushed down on ladder and has the lowest representation in all leagues except silver and bronze, because that is kinda where you end up...
i consider MVP the best player of sc2, when he says "mech does not work in TvP" artosis comments become a running joke. and now MKP and even DRG speak up against the current situation? seems this discussion is over apart from the few butthurt casual ladderjoes trying to justify their recent successes...
at least i was not bragging when i did only cloaked banshees 1 month after release <.< and now i should go back to bansheecheese? not to win no, to remove creep? with a raven? a BCrush costs the same you know? and is way cooler...
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On June 21 2012 21:42 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 20:57 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Terran now makes up 23.2% of GM Spots, lowest ever by any race. Source Can you stop spreading your stupid selectively chosen statistics please, you're not contributing to discussion, you're just trying to promote irrational complaints. The thread you created on the subject was already locked, give up already. Also it's 23.8% not 23.2%, I guess you're so happy to spread misinformation that you didn't even read that the fool on Reddit corrected his post from 23.2 to 23.8. I mean you might have thought to look at the actual page before posting it all over TL.net, but I guess not. Oh I'm sorry, I posted 0.6% off. I must be an idiot. Maybe I should stop posting facts that give some statistical facts that disagree with your opinion. /s off
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On June 21 2012 22:08 Naphal wrote: It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win.
100% agreed, and for casuals, it is the same with protoss, that is how terran got pushed down on ladder and has the lowest representation in all leagues except silver and bronze, because that is kinda where you end up...
i consider MVP the best player of sc2, when he says "mech does not work in TvP" artosis comments become a running joke. and now MKP and even DRG speak up against the current situation? seems this discussion is over apart from the few butthurt casual ladderjoes trying to justify their recent successes...
at least i was not bragging when i did only cloaked banshees 1 month after release <.< and now i should go back to bansheecheese? not to win no, to remove creep? with a raven? a BCrush costs the same you know? and is way cooler...
Don't think you end up in Bronze Alot of terrans in bronze/silver because players usually start multiplayer after the campaign and it's a terran campaign so easier to understand at first ( i think)
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On June 21 2012 22:00 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 21:50 Dodgin wrote:Marineking's GSL interview was just translated, and he's not happy with TvZ : Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873This is honestly getting really silly, all the top Terran players say It's broken, even DRG says It's broken. No ones opinion on this forum really matters in comparison. Was just reading DRG interview, and him saying like "I want 3 T in my Ro16 group, and other zergs i met just want the same" pretty showed it. MKP argument could've been thrown away by Terran haters just by saying "Lololol a good terran can't find a solution, he whines". Well, now one of the most talented zergs in the world confirms....
It doesn't mean anything honestly. It's only been 1 month. Their opinion is just as skewed as people on the forums.
The short term memories kill me. I remember at the at the first Blizzcon Tournament. David Kim said we take pro feedback into Consideration they don't just balance from it. It doesn't matter if the 1 current top player says its broken. Next season he might not be the top player.
TLDR it's too soon.
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On June 21 2012 22:06 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:04 MstrJinbo wrote:On June 21 2012 22:02 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 21:49 avc wrote:On June 21 2012 21:43 Crownlol wrote:On June 21 2012 06:05 geokilla wrote:Right now, Terran is all about the early to mid game. Win by proxies and pure aggression. Once you hit the late game, just GG out without even attempting to fight. And in another thread.... On June 21 2012 05:23 geokilla wrote: Wow... I make this thread months ago and it got locked because it was deemed "useless" or something. Same thread exists and now it's left open....
Anyways I've been macroing hard in all my games lately and I'm losing all of my games against Toss. All they gotta do is macro just as hard and then storm their way through to a win, along with having 3 Colossi in their army.
As for my games against Zerg, I gave up using Hellions today and going for 2 Rax expand like the good ol days. It actually works fairly well in the early game to mid game, as I get much more marines earlier, making it possible to pressure them into making zerglings instead drones and relying on just having 4 queens for defence. I got frustrated the other day and just proxyrax\bunker rushed 9 straight games. I actually went 8-1, so, I'll probably just start cheesing every game. *Edit* @ avc- does the 0.6% make that much of a difference? Or am I missing the troll here... The stat itself doesn't matter at all. My point was he's so busy trying to rile people up with some stupid misleading stats that he hasn't even bothered to check the accuracy of what he's posting, he just mindlessly reposted it to TL.net, had a thread locked and is now posting it in other threads. I'm completely sick of a minority of stupid players (mostly Terrans right now) posting selectively chosen or manipulated statistics purely because they suit their opinion and help promote their whine. It's almost impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject without people jumping in with nonsense statistics that don't show anything. I could just as easily post selective meaningless statistics that show things are balanced, anyone could, statistics don't show much at all, especially not selectively chosen small sample sizes. Wow your stupid. The Thread I created was for a lack of content and was directed here. I posted it, And I'm not a Terran player ffs. You should read the full post of what your replying to instead of being a blind Terran hater. And you should note that my Thread was created for the lack of terrans overall, Which makes the game less fun because of lack of diversity between races. I've taken the liberty of checking your previous posts. and It's either Zerg whine / Terran hating or being plane mad for something you can't control. Stop being a controlfreak and discuss with facts backing them up. Instead of going blind rage whenever someone disagree's with you. Clean up your posting "bro" Keep it civil please. No need to call people stupid. I agree, got mad because whenever I post real facts showing the decline of terrans overall he gets all supersayan on me and basicly sais FACTS DONT MATTER! But your right. No need to be a ass. Sorry about that
Facts do matter, but when you're repeatedly posting selectively chosen facts that suit your argument (or a specific argument) they should pretty much be ignored.
The distribution percentage of races in the highest recorded league is not relevant to balance. The sensationalist 23.8% banded around by the fool on reddit (and yourself on TL.net) is not helping anything, it's not showing anything and it's not promoting any kind of useful discussion.
The very same page those stats were taken from also shows that since records began on that site, every single season/patch recorded (aside from the most recent one) shows that Zerg were the least represented race in the top recorded league. Do I think this particular stat now matters because it says Zerg were least represented? No I don't, it doesn't really show balance at all. My point in saying such a thing is that the second there are stats there that support your opinion or the complaints you want to put forward, they are grabbed and thrust into the limelight as if they are the only stats which matter. I could just as easily grab the same stats on the same page and write a sensationalist post titled "for the first time in SC2 history, Zerg is not the least represented race in the top recorded league!". Does that show balance? Is it useful to throw a sensationalist headline like that around the community? No.
I'm sure that those who love selectively chosen stats will now deliberately avoid the TvZ win rate stats for Code S as it shows Terran won 60% of the series'. I wonder if the same people who love selectively chosen stats would have ignored it if it showed that Zerg won 60%? I bet they'd have posted it already in a brand new thread trying to promote their complaints even more.
Please stop using statistics selectively to suit your own opinions (this goes for all races) and start using your heads to have some intelligent, useful and productive discussion on the subject at hand. If people continue to post random small samples of selectively chosen statistics to fuel their own personal complaints on a certain subject then you'll never have a chance at a proper discussion on what should be an important subject.
Balance in a game like this is a gigantic puzzle that must be solved piece by piece. As that puzzle nudges towards the impossible to achieve completion, there will be moments where match ups change and balance is affected in good and bad ways. The best way to look at what has been changed lately is to think that now that some of the problems with the match up have been solved, other issues that couldn't be touched before are now open to changes. Such as Ghosts, Ravens, Battlecruisers, Reapers and the cost and duration of upgrades to make these units more viable. Instead of attaching yourselves hopelessly to knee jerk complaints and protesting the change in the hope that it will be reversed and you can go back to the old ways you should be looking for more substantial progress on the Terran late game higher tech units. Such a thing has been needed for a long time and now is the best opportunity for it to be looked at.
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On June 21 2012 22:16 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:00 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 21:50 Dodgin wrote:Marineking's GSL interview was just translated, and he's not happy with TvZ : Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873This is honestly getting really silly, all the top Terran players say It's broken, even DRG says It's broken. No ones opinion on this forum really matters in comparison. Was just reading DRG interview, and him saying like "I want 3 T in my Ro16 group, and other zergs i met just want the same" pretty showed it. MKP argument could've been thrown away by Terran haters just by saying "Lololol a good terran can't find a solution, he whines". Well, now one of the most talented zergs in the world confirms.... It doesn't mean anything honestly. It's only been 1 month. Their opinion is just as skewed as people on the forums. The short term memories kill me. I remember at the at the first Blizzcon Tournament. David Kim said we take pro feedback into Consideration they don't just balance from it. It doesn't matter if the 1 current top player says its broken. Next season he might not be the top player. TLDR it's too soon.
Yeah I'm sure DRG loves making up shit to try to get his own race nerfed, cause why not right? gives him a bigger challenge to win tournaments.
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On June 21 2012 22:14 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:08 Naphal wrote: It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win.
100% agreed, and for casuals, it is the same with protoss, that is how terran got pushed down on ladder and has the lowest representation in all leagues except silver and bronze, because that is kinda where you end up...
i consider MVP the best player of sc2, when he says "mech does not work in TvP" artosis comments become a running joke. and now MKP and even DRG speak up against the current situation? seems this discussion is over apart from the few butthurt casual ladderjoes trying to justify their recent successes...
at least i was not bragging when i did only cloaked banshees 1 month after release <.< and now i should go back to bansheecheese? not to win no, to remove creep? with a raven? a BCrush costs the same you know? and is way cooler...
Don't think you end up in Bronze Alot of terrans in bronze/silver because players usually start multiplayer after the campaign and it's a terran campaign so easier to understand at first ( i think)
na i get platinum at worst ^.^
On June 21 2012 22:16 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:00 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 21:50 Dodgin wrote:Marineking's GSL interview was just translated, and he's not happy with TvZ : Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873This is honestly getting really silly, all the top Terran players say It's broken, even DRG says It's broken. No ones opinion on this forum really matters in comparison. Was just reading DRG interview, and him saying like "I want 3 T in my Ro16 group, and other zergs i met just want the same" pretty showed it. MKP argument could've been thrown away by Terran haters just by saying "Lololol a good terran can't find a solution, he whines". Well, now one of the most talented zergs in the world confirms.... It doesn't mean anything honestly. It's only been 1 month. Their opinion is just as skewed as people on the forums. The short term memories kill me. I remember at the at the first Blizzcon Tournament. David Kim said we take pro feedback into Consideration they don't just balance from it. It doesn't matter if the 1 current top player says its broken. Next season he might not be the top player. TLDR it's too soon.
as long TSL4 has more terrans than the 2 seeds... or homestorycupV...
shame the qualifiers happen in this "too soon" timeframe QQ because these tournaments do not really happen that often, while MLGs / GSLs / Dreamhacks would replenish their terran count fast if there are patches or metagameshifts <.<
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I race switched to terran a long time ago before the infestor got buffed, I'm thinking about switching again just because it's fun being the race other people consider bad. Plus ZvZ 70% of the time on ladder can get old.
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On June 21 2012 22:08 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 21:42 avc wrote:On June 21 2012 20:57 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Terran now makes up 23.2% of GM Spots, lowest ever by any race. Source Can you stop spreading your stupid selectively chosen statistics please, you're not contributing to discussion, you're just trying to promote irrational complaints. The thread you created on the subject was already locked, give up already. Also it's 23.8% not 23.2%, I guess you're so happy to spread misinformation that you didn't even read that the fool on Reddit corrected his post from 23.2 to 23.8. I mean you might have thought to look at the actual page before posting it all over TL.net, but I guess not. Oh I'm sorry, I posted 0.6% off. I must be an idiot. Maybe I should stop posting facts that give some statistical facts that disagree with your opinion. /s off
Hey NeWeNiyaLord!
Calm down a bit, cause there ain't no reason to freak out. In his latest comment, avc may have appeared to go a bit over the top with his 0;6 percent issue. But besides some healthy bias, he is one of the zerg players that atleast admit terran problems post patch, and even came up with some ideas about buffing terran lategame units. If I am not mistaken, his main issue with the discussion atm is the point in time. In his eyes it's a bit too early to judge.
Anyways, I think you are doing a good job on keeping track of the latest numbers of ZvT. And as much as i like most of avc's comments, I am under the impression, that we are seeing a somewhat severe trend in favour of zerg. With every day it becomes a bit harder to negate this, at least in my eyes.
Never before did we hear such a huge amount of distinct top korean terran voices, speaking out against the current state of the MU. This is quite unique, and it is hard to ignore for much longer.
So keep up your work and your spirit and let's keep this civil.
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France9034 Posts
On June 21 2012 22:19 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:16 oZii wrote:On June 21 2012 22:00 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 21:50 Dodgin wrote:Marineking's GSL interview was just translated, and he's not happy with TvZ : Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873This is honestly getting really silly, all the top Terran players say It's broken, even DRG says It's broken. No ones opinion on this forum really matters in comparison. Was just reading DRG interview, and him saying like "I want 3 T in my Ro16 group, and other zergs i met just want the same" pretty showed it. MKP argument could've been thrown away by Terran haters just by saying "Lololol a good terran can't find a solution, he whines". Well, now one of the most talented zergs in the world confirms.... It doesn't mean anything honestly. It's only been 1 month. Their opinion is just as skewed as people on the forums. The short term memories kill me. I remember at the at the first Blizzcon Tournament. David Kim said we take pro feedback into Consideration they don't just balance from it. It doesn't matter if the 1 current top player says its broken. Next season he might not be the top player. TLDR it's too soon. Yeah I'm sure DRG loves making up shit to try to get his own race nerfed, cause why not right? gives him a bigger challenge to win tournaments.
^this.
Seriously, do you think that DRG won't be amongst top players next season ? (In top players I would include all the Code S players who get there quite often, excluding those who make an appearance and then fade away).
And hopefully Blizzard take pro feedback into consideration and not balance from it. Idra would've made protoss quite a horribly underpowered race then. Still, he isn't a top player. DRG is and isn't likely to fade...
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On June 21 2012 22:18 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:06 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 22:04 MstrJinbo wrote:On June 21 2012 22:02 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 21:49 avc wrote:On June 21 2012 21:43 Crownlol wrote:On June 21 2012 06:05 geokilla wrote:Right now, Terran is all about the early to mid game. Win by proxies and pure aggression. Once you hit the late game, just GG out without even attempting to fight. And in another thread.... On June 21 2012 05:23 geokilla wrote: Wow... I make this thread months ago and it got locked because it was deemed "useless" or something. Same thread exists and now it's left open....
Anyways I've been macroing hard in all my games lately and I'm losing all of my games against Toss. All they gotta do is macro just as hard and then storm their way through to a win, along with having 3 Colossi in their army.
As for my games against Zerg, I gave up using Hellions today and going for 2 Rax expand like the good ol days. It actually works fairly well in the early game to mid game, as I get much more marines earlier, making it possible to pressure them into making zerglings instead drones and relying on just having 4 queens for defence. I got frustrated the other day and just proxyrax\bunker rushed 9 straight games. I actually went 8-1, so, I'll probably just start cheesing every game. *Edit* @ avc- does the 0.6% make that much of a difference? Or am I missing the troll here... The stat itself doesn't matter at all. My point was he's so busy trying to rile people up with some stupid misleading stats that he hasn't even bothered to check the accuracy of what he's posting, he just mindlessly reposted it to TL.net, had a thread locked and is now posting it in other threads. I'm completely sick of a minority of stupid players (mostly Terrans right now) posting selectively chosen or manipulated statistics purely because they suit their opinion and help promote their whine. It's almost impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject without people jumping in with nonsense statistics that don't show anything. I could just as easily post selective meaningless statistics that show things are balanced, anyone could, statistics don't show much at all, especially not selectively chosen small sample sizes. Wow your stupid. The Thread I created was for a lack of content and was directed here. I posted it, And I'm not a Terran player ffs. You should read the full post of what your replying to instead of being a blind Terran hater. And you should note that my Thread was created for the lack of terrans overall, Which makes the game less fun because of lack of diversity between races. I've taken the liberty of checking your previous posts. and It's either Zerg whine / Terran hating or being plane mad for something you can't control. Stop being a controlfreak and discuss with facts backing them up. Instead of going blind rage whenever someone disagree's with you. Clean up your posting "bro" Keep it civil please. No need to call people stupid. I agree, got mad because whenever I post real facts showing the decline of terrans overall he gets all supersayan on me and basicly sais FACTS DONT MATTER! But your right. No need to be a ass. Sorry about that Facts do matter, but when you're repeatedly posting selectively chosen facts that suit your argument (or a specific argument) they should pretty much be ignored. The distribution percentage of races in the highest recorded league is not relevant to balance. The sensationalist 23.8% banded around by the fool on reddit (and yourself on TL.net) is not helping anything, it's not showing anything and it's not promoting any kind of useful discussion. The very same page those stats were taken from also shows that since records began on that site, every single season/patch recorded (aside from the most recent one) shows that Zerg were the least represented race in the top recorded league. Do I think this particular stat now matters because it says Zerg were least represented? No I don't, it doesn't really show balance at all. My point in saying such a thing is that the second there are stats there that support your opinion or the complaints you want to put forward, they are grabbed and thrust into the limelight as if they are the only stats which matter. I could just as easily grab the same stats on the same page and write a sensationalist post titled "for the first time in SC2 history, Zerg is not the least represented race in the top recorded league!". Does that show balance? Is it useful to throw a sensationalist headline like that around the community? No. I'm sure that those who love selectively chosen stats will now deliberately avoid the TvZ win rate stats for Code S as it shows Terran won 60% of the series'. I wonder if the same people who love selectively chosen stats would have ignored it if it showed that Zerg won 60%? I bet they'd have posted it already in a brand new thread trying to promote their complaints even more. Please stop using statistics selectively to suit your own opinions (this goes for all races) and start using your heads to have some intelligent, useful and productive discussion on the subject at hand. If people continue to post random small samples of selectively chosen statistics to fuel their own personal complaints on a certain subject then you'll never have a chance at a proper discussion on what should be an important subject. Balance in a game like this is a gigantic puzzle that must be solved piece by piece. As that puzzle nudges towards the impossible to achieve completion, there will be moments where match ups change and balance is affected in good and bad ways. The best way to look at what has been changed lately is to think that now that some of the problems with the match up have been solved, other issues that couldn't be touched before are now open to changes. Such as Ghosts, Ravens, Battlecruisers, Reapers and the cost and duration of upgrades to make these units more viable. Instead of attaching yourselves hopelessly to knee jerk complaints and protesting the change in the hope that it will be reversed and you can go back to the old ways you should be looking for more substantial progress on the Terran late game higher tech units. Such a thing has been needed for a long time and now is the best opportunity for it to be looked at. Long post you did, but you STILL didn't read either of my posts closely. I was not balance whining. I wasn't even saying that the reason there's few terrans in GM is because of the recent patch. Your just a control freak trying to form my post into something you can discuss without any backing up! So, for the record this is a summary of my thread/posts.
- The lack of terran in GM/Master league gives the game less diversity. - Therefore less fun for ALL races. (Third time i'm telling you this in a damn quote) - I'm not terran god damnit and I can still see the issue! (I'm Zerg - high master/Gm if that even matters!)
I sincerely hope you Read those 3 lines and stop accusing me of posting riddickoulus facts just so you have someone to have a "intelligent discussion with" as I'm not interesting in your opinion, discussion or "facts". I just wanted to post the Stats as their still there wether you like it or not
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On June 21 2012 22:18 avc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:06 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 22:04 MstrJinbo wrote:On June 21 2012 22:02 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 21:49 avc wrote:On June 21 2012 21:43 Crownlol wrote:On June 21 2012 06:05 geokilla wrote:Right now, Terran is all about the early to mid game. Win by proxies and pure aggression. Once you hit the late game, just GG out without even attempting to fight. And in another thread.... On June 21 2012 05:23 geokilla wrote: Wow... I make this thread months ago and it got locked because it was deemed "useless" or something. Same thread exists and now it's left open....
Anyways I've been macroing hard in all my games lately and I'm losing all of my games against Toss. All they gotta do is macro just as hard and then storm their way through to a win, along with having 3 Colossi in their army.
As for my games against Zerg, I gave up using Hellions today and going for 2 Rax expand like the good ol days. It actually works fairly well in the early game to mid game, as I get much more marines earlier, making it possible to pressure them into making zerglings instead drones and relying on just having 4 queens for defence. I got frustrated the other day and just proxyrax\bunker rushed 9 straight games. I actually went 8-1, so, I'll probably just start cheesing every game. *Edit* @ avc- does the 0.6% make that much of a difference? Or am I missing the troll here... The stat itself doesn't matter at all. My point was he's so busy trying to rile people up with some stupid misleading stats that he hasn't even bothered to check the accuracy of what he's posting, he just mindlessly reposted it to TL.net, had a thread locked and is now posting it in other threads. I'm completely sick of a minority of stupid players (mostly Terrans right now) posting selectively chosen or manipulated statistics purely because they suit their opinion and help promote their whine. It's almost impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject without people jumping in with nonsense statistics that don't show anything. I could just as easily post selective meaningless statistics that show things are balanced, anyone could, statistics don't show much at all, especially not selectively chosen small sample sizes. Wow your stupid. The Thread I created was for a lack of content and was directed here. I posted it, And I'm not a Terran player ffs. You should read the full post of what your replying to instead of being a blind Terran hater. And you should note that my Thread was created for the lack of terrans overall, Which makes the game less fun because of lack of diversity between races. I've taken the liberty of checking your previous posts. and It's either Zerg whine / Terran hating or being plane mad for something you can't control. Stop being a controlfreak and discuss with facts backing them up. Instead of going blind rage whenever someone disagree's with you. Clean up your posting "bro" Keep it civil please. No need to call people stupid. I agree, got mad because whenever I post real facts showing the decline of terrans overall he gets all supersayan on me and basicly sais FACTS DONT MATTER! But your right. No need to be a ass. Sorry about that Facts do matter, but when you're repeatedly posting selectively chosen facts that suit your argument (or a specific argument) they should pretty much be ignored. The distribution percentage of races in the highest recorded league is not relevant to balance. The sensationalist 23.8% banded around by the fool on reddit (and yourself on TL.net) is not helping anything, it's not showing anything and it's not promoting any kind of useful discussion. The very same page those stats were taken from also shows that since records began on that site, every single season/patch recorded (aside from the most recent one) shows that Zerg were the least represented race in the top recorded league. Do I think this particular stat now matters because it says Zerg were least represented? No I don't, it doesn't really show balance at all. My point in saying such a thing is that the second there are stats there that support your opinion or the complaints you want to put forward, they are grabbed and thrust into the limelight as if they are the only stats which matter. I could just as easily grab the same stats on the same page and write a sensationalist post titled "for the first time in SC2 history, Zerg is not the least represented race in the top recorded league!". Does that show balance? Is it useful to throw a sensationalist headline like that around the community? No.
While I agree that the sc2ranks stats don't show anything about top level zvt balance, zergs being the least represented race for all seasons except for the last one is wrong. As I already explained before, sc2ranks has screwed up their graphs somehow and merged S5-S8, but terrans have been the least represented race on the ladder for ages. This is common knowledge for anyone who has been on these forums for a while and who regularly checked sc2ranks between each season to see what changes there were between the seasons.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291886¤tpage=36#718 for instance has a post made december 2011 discussing this.
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On June 21 2012 22:24 Tryagain4free wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:08 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 21:42 avc wrote:On June 21 2012 20:57 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Terran now makes up 23.2% of GM Spots, lowest ever by any race. Source Can you stop spreading your stupid selectively chosen statistics please, you're not contributing to discussion, you're just trying to promote irrational complaints. The thread you created on the subject was already locked, give up already. Also it's 23.8% not 23.2%, I guess you're so happy to spread misinformation that you didn't even read that the fool on Reddit corrected his post from 23.2 to 23.8. I mean you might have thought to look at the actual page before posting it all over TL.net, but I guess not. Oh I'm sorry, I posted 0.6% off. I must be an idiot. Maybe I should stop posting facts that give some statistical facts that disagree with your opinion. /s off Hey NeWeNiyaLord! Calm down a bit, cause there ain't no reason to freak out. In his latest comment, avc may have appeared to go a bit over the top with his 0;6 percent issue. But besides some healthy bias, he is one of the zerg players that atleast admit terran problems post patch, and even came up with some ideas about buffing terran lategame units. If I am not mistaken, his main issue with the discussion atm is the point in time. In his eyes it's a bit too early to judge. Anyways, I think you are doing a good job on keeping track of the latest numbers of ZvT. And as much as i like most of avc's comments, I am under the impression, that we are seeing a somewhat severe trend in favour of zerg. With every day it becomes a bit harder to negate this, at least in my eyes. Never before did we hear such a huge amount of distinct top korean terran voices, speaking out against the current state of the MU. This is quite unique, and it is hard to ignore for much longer. So keep up your work and your spirit and let's keep this civil. Again sorry, /posted I'm sorry in a edit/ But this dude has been quoting me all day saying these facts dont matter. But I've adressed them in my post above. hopefully that clearifies abit.
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On June 21 2012 22:31 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:24 Tryagain4free wrote:On June 21 2012 22:08 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 21:42 avc wrote:On June 21 2012 20:57 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Terran now makes up 23.2% of GM Spots, lowest ever by any race. Source Can you stop spreading your stupid selectively chosen statistics please, you're not contributing to discussion, you're just trying to promote irrational complaints. The thread you created on the subject was already locked, give up already. Also it's 23.8% not 23.2%, I guess you're so happy to spread misinformation that you didn't even read that the fool on Reddit corrected his post from 23.2 to 23.8. I mean you might have thought to look at the actual page before posting it all over TL.net, but I guess not. Oh I'm sorry, I posted 0.6% off. I must be an idiot. Maybe I should stop posting facts that give some statistical facts that disagree with your opinion. /s off Hey NeWeNiyaLord! Calm down a bit, cause there ain't no reason to freak out. In his latest comment, avc may have appeared to go a bit over the top with his 0;6 percent issue. But besides some healthy bias, he is one of the zerg players that atleast admit terran problems post patch, and even came up with some ideas about buffing terran lategame units. If I am not mistaken, his main issue with the discussion atm is the point in time. In his eyes it's a bit too early to judge. Anyways, I think you are doing a good job on keeping track of the latest numbers of ZvT. And as much as i like most of avc's comments, I am under the impression, that we are seeing a somewhat severe trend in favour of zerg. With every day it becomes a bit harder to negate this, at least in my eyes. Never before did we hear such a huge amount of distinct top korean terran voices, speaking out against the current state of the MU. This is quite unique, and it is hard to ignore for much longer. So keep up your work and your spirit and let's keep this civil. Again sorry, /posted I'm sorry in a edit/ But this dude has been quoting me all day saying these facts dont matter. But I've adressed them in my post above. hopefully that clearifies abit.
No problem, happens to all of us sometimes.
I think you made your points quite clear, and any further discussion will be improved by your clarifications. Keep fighting the good fight!
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On June 21 2012 22:36 Tryagain4free wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:31 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 22:24 Tryagain4free wrote:On June 21 2012 22:08 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:On June 21 2012 21:42 avc wrote:On June 21 2012 20:57 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Terran now makes up 23.2% of GM Spots, lowest ever by any race. Source Can you stop spreading your stupid selectively chosen statistics please, you're not contributing to discussion, you're just trying to promote irrational complaints. The thread you created on the subject was already locked, give up already. Also it's 23.8% not 23.2%, I guess you're so happy to spread misinformation that you didn't even read that the fool on Reddit corrected his post from 23.2 to 23.8. I mean you might have thought to look at the actual page before posting it all over TL.net, but I guess not. Oh I'm sorry, I posted 0.6% off. I must be an idiot. Maybe I should stop posting facts that give some statistical facts that disagree with your opinion. /s off Hey NeWeNiyaLord! Calm down a bit, cause there ain't no reason to freak out. In his latest comment, avc may have appeared to go a bit over the top with his 0;6 percent issue. But besides some healthy bias, he is one of the zerg players that atleast admit terran problems post patch, and even came up with some ideas about buffing terran lategame units. If I am not mistaken, his main issue with the discussion atm is the point in time. In his eyes it's a bit too early to judge. Anyways, I think you are doing a good job on keeping track of the latest numbers of ZvT. And as much as i like most of avc's comments, I am under the impression, that we are seeing a somewhat severe trend in favour of zerg. With every day it becomes a bit harder to negate this, at least in my eyes. Never before did we hear such a huge amount of distinct top korean terran voices, speaking out against the current state of the MU. This is quite unique, and it is hard to ignore for much longer. So keep up your work and your spirit and let's keep this civil. Again sorry, /posted I'm sorry in a edit/ But this dude has been quoting me all day saying these facts dont matter. But I've adressed them in my post above. hopefully that clearifies abit. No problem, happens to all of us sometimes. I think you made your points quite clear, and any further discussion will be improved by your clarifications. Keep fighting the good fight! I got to say, Your one positive dude. Thumbs up
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On June 21 2012 22:19 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:16 oZii wrote:On June 21 2012 22:00 Ragnarork wrote:On June 21 2012 21:50 Dodgin wrote:Marineking's GSL interview was just translated, and he's not happy with TvZ : Q: How do you feel about the recent state of TvZ? A: It's the most unbalanced match-up in history, before the patch (my) TvZ win-rate was around 60%, now it's plummeted to 10%. I'm really lost, why did this happen, I've studied alot of counter zerg strategies, and I haven't found any solutions yet. In hindsight it's (strategies) all like that game on metropolis, playing to the late-game and setting up the prefect defense all around, it's kind of a solution with out a solution. I I've watched alot of zergs that do well on ladder's records, alot of people basically haven't lost to Terran in a whole week. It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win. Unless you all-in, or the opponent's psyche collapses, or your luck is just too good, it's hard to win. Even in practice I don't want to play TvZ, I always lose. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346873This is honestly getting really silly, all the top Terran players say It's broken, even DRG says It's broken. No ones opinion on this forum really matters in comparison. Was just reading DRG interview, and him saying like "I want 3 T in my Ro16 group, and other zergs i met just want the same" pretty showed it. MKP argument could've been thrown away by Terran haters just by saying "Lololol a good terran can't find a solution, he whines". Well, now one of the most talented zergs in the world confirms.... It doesn't mean anything honestly. It's only been 1 month. Their opinion is just as skewed as people on the forums. The short term memories kill me. I remember at the at the first Blizzcon Tournament. David Kim said we take pro feedback into Consideration they don't just balance from it. It doesn't matter if the 1 current top player says its broken. Next season he might not be the top player. TLDR it's too soon. Yeah I'm sure DRG loves making up shit to try to get his own race nerfed, cause why not right? gives him a bigger challenge to win tournaments.
Obviously you didn't read what I wrote. It doesn't matter what race they play. Blizzard doesn't balance based off only pro feedback they said this before DRG had a fan club. They stated this back in the fruit dealer and nexgenius era.
Again short term memories. Saying that X top player said Y about a matchup doesn't hold a ton of weight on terms of balancing by blizzard.
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On June 21 2012 22:08 Naphal wrote: It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win.
100% agreed, and for casuals, it is the same with protoss, that is how terran got pushed down on ladder and has the lowest representation in all leagues except silver and bronze, because that is kinda where you end up...
i consider MVP the best player of sc2, when he says "mech does not work in TvP" artosis comments become a running joke. and now MKP and even DRG speak up against the current situation? seems this discussion is over apart from the few butthurt casual ladderjoes trying to justify their recent successes...
at least i was not bragging when i did only cloaked banshees 1 month after release <.< and now i should go back to bansheecheese? not to win no, to remove creep? with a raven? a BCrush costs the same you know? and is way cooler...
lmao, be real. even assuming that terran is harder to play, the difference won't be that big. just go play another race and see how far you can get. most people just like to make excuse for their shortcomings, i understand that balance can affect your play, but the likelihood that a brozne terran is a master in another race is small.
being a terran player myself, i don't like so many nerfs, too, but many people just aren't that good.
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Terran player here. I realize that my Z opponent cannot harass my base early game. But I still think it is unfair to take away my ability to harass his base so I can get an early game advantage. Also I believe I should have a superior late game army. But here's the thing--I refuse to use my T3 and gas heavy units. I refuse to acknowledge their existence. I can only use bio. So please Blizzard, do a buff on my bio so that this game is fair.
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On June 21 2012 22:43 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 22:08 Naphal wrote: It's basically impossible for a terran with the same skill level as the zerg to win.
100% agreed, and for casuals, it is the same with protoss, that is how terran got pushed down on ladder and has the lowest representation in all leagues except silver and bronze, because that is kinda where you end up...
i consider MVP the best player of sc2, when he says "mech does not work in TvP" artosis comments become a running joke. and now MKP and even DRG speak up against the current situation? seems this discussion is over apart from the few butthurt casual ladderjoes trying to justify their recent successes...
at least i was not bragging when i did only cloaked banshees 1 month after release <.< and now i should go back to bansheecheese? not to win no, to remove creep? with a raven? a BCrush costs the same you know? and is way cooler...
lmao, be real. even assuming that terran is harder to play, the difference won't be that big. just go play another race and see how far you can get. most people just like to make excuse for their shortcomings, i understand that balance can affect your play, but the likelihood that a brozne terran is a master in another race is small. being a terran player myself, i don't like so many nerfs, too, but many people just aren't that good.
Umm...this is what MKP said not Naphal...jesus lmao be real kid. And if you've watching MKP play Z on ladder, you've seen he's won against top top players with no problems.
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