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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 23 2012 05:41 Trusty wrote:
Sorry in Advance! I hate theorycraft, but I sat down last night to attempt some in yabot.
Basically, my idea was to swap +1 zealot voidray for +1 zealot Immortal/WP.
As I'm sure all of you would be able to guess, you will be hitting around 30~ seconds later, due to waiting for either the WP or the Immortal. So around 8 Zealots, 1 Immo, 1 WP @ his 3rd @ 8:45.
It FELT flimsy, really flimsy. Not to mention, microing immortal + wp, is much more demanding than a single VR.
I did ONE game only with my Z practice partner. It didn't go as bad as I thought it would.
We talked about it, and we discussed that even though it's his natural reaction to make less roaches (due to immortal), he should probably actually just keep making roaches.
The nice thing is you have obs tech right out, to confirm exact lair timing & tech. Also it's hard, but I also managed to deal some nice damage to his scout by drop micro'ing wp/immortal(s) as the small army walked across map (He thought no SG, so he said he feels safe to walk out with small amount of roach 10:00~ ish).
Sorry for such flimsy post with no replay!! Will Test heavily tonight!!
I know this is really ambigious post, but I wanted to share in-case some wants to build on the idea.
Sounds like a fun idea. Work is crushing me this week, but I'll put that on my list of ideas to try.
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On March 23 2012 06:00 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:41 Trusty wrote:
Sorry in Advance! I hate theorycraft, but I sat down last night to attempt some in yabot.
Basically, my idea was to swap +1 zealot voidray for +1 zealot Immortal/WP.
As I'm sure all of you would be able to guess, you will be hitting around 30~ seconds later, due to waiting for either the WP or the Immortal. So around 8 Zealots, 1 Immo, 1 WP @ his 3rd @ 8:45.
It FELT flimsy, really flimsy. Not to mention, microing immortal + wp, is much more demanding than a single VR.
I did ONE game only with my Z practice partner. It didn't go as bad as I thought it would.
We talked about it, and we discussed that even though it's his natural reaction to make less roaches (due to immortal), he should probably actually just keep making roaches.
The nice thing is you have obs tech right out, to confirm exact lair timing & tech. Also it's hard, but I also managed to deal some nice damage to his scout by drop micro'ing wp/immortal(s) as the small army walked across map (He thought no SG, so he said he feels safe to walk out with small amount of roach 10:00~ ish).
Sorry for such flimsy post with no replay!! Will Test heavily tonight!!
I know this is really ambigious post, but I wanted to share in-case some wants to build on the idea. Sounds like a fun idea. Work is crushing me this week, but I'll put that on my list of ideas to try.
I hear you man! Luckily it's friday in my time-zone, so I can try more tonight :D.
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Alright guys, here comes a big post. Sorry if I repeat part of my previous posts, I just want to make a point.
I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking.
You can:
A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg
B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number.
Of course that's just a general statement but you get my point. So basically since i'm more of a macro player, i've been experimenting with some builds that will allow me to get out a faster 3rd base, and I wanted to share and maybe get some feedback.
Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it.
I feel like in order to stop the 12-13 minute roach max-out timing, the faster you have your 3rd base the better off you will be because you will have mined more minerals and therefore you can have more units. The reason that I think that this is viable is because the zerg takes 3 hatch so fast that they delay their gas for so long that they won't have speedlings for a very long time.
In the replay you will see me build my extra gateways on the outside of my base, forming a simcity. The idea behind this is that the less holes in my defense there are, the less I need forcefields, and that means less sentries. Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals. It allows me to take my 3rd base off of just 3 gas, which is a very important part of the build because those extra minerals that I am saving are allowing me to get my 3rd nexus and extra gateways up much much faster.
Since I'm playing defensively you will see that I skip a robo until i've started blink and +2 weapons. My +2 is so fast that I can easily deal with his roaches without immortals by the time he maxes out.
The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay
http://drop.sc/140231
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Thanks for posting, Ranged. Can't watch the replay, but it sounds like the build I was theorycrafting last night when I wrote:
On March 22 2012 12:43 kcdc wrote:
Fast third -> +2 blink by 12:00 is a good idea. I don't love the blink timing into 3rd that MC does--everyone except MC seems unable to defend their third with the build. But if instead of going for the timing, you go for a fast third off of a couple gates with maybe 4 early sentries and then pump pure stalkers cutting everything but weapons upgrades and blink tech, you might be able to hit a pretty solid supply count by 12:00.
WG units aren't the most efficient, but the WG mechanic eventually gives you a 30 second advance on your investment compared to robo or SG units. Blink stalkers also have a property where as long as they're strong enough to win a fight, they take almost no losses.
If you hit ~160 food with blink stalkers on 3 bases, Z needs infestors or hive tech to beat you, so you've more or less printed yourself a ticket to lategame. I'll bet it's possible to somewhat safely hit 120 or 130 food with +2 weapons and blink by 12:00. With positioning, sim-citying, and forcefields, I'll bet that you can delay and/or force favorable engagements long enough to hit the critical mass of stalkers (on most maps).
The key would be focusing on maxing out supply and hitting that critical mass that can't be beaten by maxed roach+ling. Trading early, even favorable trading, might hurt your cause since Z will be able to max regardless, and trading early will slow your reaching critical mass.
Sounds like we're on the same page, but I've been stuck working and haven't gotten to try it yet. I'll check out your replay and work on optimizing my own version of the build when I get a chance to play again. This idea appeals to me more than the immortal/sentry defense because relying on great forcefields is a very difficult, volatile way to play. When your whole build depends on a hitting forcefields every time, you put yourself in a position where in theory, you should win, but in practice, you lose half the time.
Of course, you need forcefields either way, but I'd rather have a resilient army behind 6 sentries of forcefields rather than Titan's army of 2 immortals and 12 sentries.
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On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:Alright guys, here comes a big post. Sorry if I repeat part of my previous posts, I just want to make a point. I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking. You can: A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number. Of course that's just a general statement but you get my point. So basically since i'm more of a macro player, i've been experimenting with some builds that will allow me to get out a faster 3rd base, and I wanted to share and maybe get some feedback. Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it. I feel like in order to stop the 12-13 minute roach max-out timing, the faster you have your 3rd base the better off you will be because you will have mined more minerals and therefore you can have more units. The reason that I think that this is viable is because the zerg takes 3 hatch so fast that they delay their gas for so long that they won't have speedlings for a very long time. In the replay you will see me build my extra gateways on the outside of my base, forming a simcity. The idea behind this is that the less holes in my defense there are, the less I need forcefields, and that means less sentries. Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals. It allows me to take my 3rd base off of just 3 gas, which is a very important part of the build because those extra minerals that I am saving are allowing me to get my 3rd nexus and extra gateways up much much faster. Since I'm playing defensively you will see that I skip a robo until i've started blink and +2 weapons. My +2 is so fast that I can easily deal with his roaches without immortals by the time he maxes out. The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231
Thanks for your input in this thread!
So this build is pretty baller, but I'm guessing that it will only really work on Antiga and Entombed.
What do we do on Korhal?
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On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231
This looks really promising, thanks for sharing. The early simcity on third/choke felt perfect for Antiga; on other maps, there will be the need to plan the buildings more creatively than what everyone is currently doing.
On March 23 2012 07:11 Chemist391 wrote:
Thanks for your input in this thread!
So this build is pretty baller, but I'm guessing that it will only really work on Antiga and Entombed.
What do we do on Korhal?
I don`t thing its possible to take an early third in all maps (Korhal being the best example). On those maps, you have to do the other solution Ranged pointed, and that is to harass/delay the zerg. This is why it is important to keep talking about harass/ all-in builds in this thread.
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:11 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:Alright guys, here comes a big post. Sorry if I repeat part of my previous posts, I just want to make a point. I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking. You can: A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number. Of course that's just a general statement but you get my point. So basically since i'm more of a macro player, i've been experimenting with some builds that will allow me to get out a faster 3rd base, and I wanted to share and maybe get some feedback. Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it. I feel like in order to stop the 12-13 minute roach max-out timing, the faster you have your 3rd base the better off you will be because you will have mined more minerals and therefore you can have more units. The reason that I think that this is viable is because the zerg takes 3 hatch so fast that they delay their gas for so long that they won't have speedlings for a very long time. In the replay you will see me build my extra gateways on the outside of my base, forming a simcity. The idea behind this is that the less holes in my defense there are, the less I need forcefields, and that means less sentries. Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals. It allows me to take my 3rd base off of just 3 gas, which is a very important part of the build because those extra minerals that I am saving are allowing me to get my 3rd nexus and extra gateways up much much faster. Since I'm playing defensively you will see that I skip a robo until i've started blink and +2 weapons. My +2 is so fast that I can easily deal with his roaches without immortals by the time he maxes out. The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231 Thanks for your input in this thread! So this build is pretty baller, but I'm guessing that it will only really work on Antiga and Entombed. What do we do on Korhal?
2base allin every game is the best way to play that i'm aware of on it. Korhal is the Dual Sight of our ladder pool.
I have thought about walling with gates at the 4th location (which seems easier than at the 3rd), but it's so freakin far away they will probably be extremely hard to defend.
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On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:Alright guys, here comes a big post. Sorry if I repeat part of my previous posts, I just want to make a point. I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking. You can: A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number. Of course that's just a general statement but you get my point. So basically since i'm more of a macro player, i've been experimenting with some builds that will allow me to get out a faster 3rd base, and I wanted to share and maybe get some feedback. Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it. I feel like in order to stop the 12-13 minute roach max-out timing, the faster you have your 3rd base the better off you will be because you will have mined more minerals and therefore you can have more units. The reason that I think that this is viable is because the zerg takes 3 hatch so fast that they delay their gas for so long that they won't have speedlings for a very long time. In the replay you will see me build my extra gateways on the outside of my base, forming a simcity. The idea behind this is that the less holes in my defense there are, the less I need forcefields, and that means less sentries. Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals. It allows me to take my 3rd base off of just 3 gas, which is a very important part of the build because those extra minerals that I am saving are allowing me to get my 3rd nexus and extra gateways up much much faster. Since I'm playing defensively you will see that I skip a robo until i've started blink and +2 weapons. My +2 is so fast that I can easily deal with his roaches without immortals by the time he maxes out. The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231
To be fair, that guy didn't execute the build as well as he could have. He had 124 supply at 10:30 vs your 93. If he would have executed the "stephano roach push" better he could have 150 or even 160 supply at 10:30 which does a world of difference, he was about 30 seconds behind on everything. He didn't roach drone saturation until 8:20 and didn't start producing his roaches until 8:50.
I've tried to deconstruct the exact timings in stephanos build In this thread.
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On March 23 2012 07:24 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:Alright guys, here comes a big post. Sorry if I repeat part of my previous posts, I just want to make a point. I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking. You can: A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number. Of course that's just a general statement but you get my point. So basically since i'm more of a macro player, i've been experimenting with some builds that will allow me to get out a faster 3rd base, and I wanted to share and maybe get some feedback. Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it. I feel like in order to stop the 12-13 minute roach max-out timing, the faster you have your 3rd base the better off you will be because you will have mined more minerals and therefore you can have more units. The reason that I think that this is viable is because the zerg takes 3 hatch so fast that they delay their gas for so long that they won't have speedlings for a very long time. In the replay you will see me build my extra gateways on the outside of my base, forming a simcity. The idea behind this is that the less holes in my defense there are, the less I need forcefields, and that means less sentries. Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals. It allows me to take my 3rd base off of just 3 gas, which is a very important part of the build because those extra minerals that I am saving are allowing me to get my 3rd nexus and extra gateways up much much faster. Since I'm playing defensively you will see that I skip a robo until i've started blink and +2 weapons. My +2 is so fast that I can easily deal with his roaches without immortals by the time he maxes out. The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231 To be fair, that guy didn't execute the build as well as he could have. He had 124 supply at 10:30 vs your 93. If he would have executed the "stephano roach push" better he could have 150 or even 160 supply at 10:30 which does a world of difference, he was about 30 seconds behind on everything. He didn't roach drone saturation until 8:20 and didn't start producing his roaches until 8:50. I've tried to deconstruct the exact timings in stephanos build In this thread.
Yeah he definitely missed some injects and didn't play as perfectly as Stephano can 
I'll try to find a high level zerg that will maybe play 10 games or so with me, just to work out the flaws and give a zerg a chance to decide the best way to react to it. Then I can make a decision whether or not I want to sack the build and move on to experimenting with other builds. If any GM zerg thinks they can play perfect up until the 13~14 minute mark and wouldn't mind playing some games with me, shoot me a pm.
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On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231
Very nice. This is exactly what I was thinking would work well. Suggestions for refining:
Less gas early, 3 gates before third, slightly slower twilight and blink.
Reasoning:
I've had Z's hatch cancel their third and roach all-in me. Z can also get metabolic boost earlier. They don't because it's not quite optimal against what P's do right now, but they will if P's start taking fast thirds. You're definitely exposed to taking big damage if you don't beef up the opening a bit.
You don't really need blink or +2 until 11:30 at the earliest. That means you can start +2 weapons at 9:00 and blink at 9:30. Slow down the twilight until 8:10 so that you can slow down the gas mining even more for extra minerals. Slowing down gas mining will allow you to get some of the economy boost back from the safer 3 gate -> third.
5 sentries is a good number. Even teching a little faster than I think is optimal, you started banking gas. Start with 1 assimilator at 20 supply and take the 2nd and 3rd later.
Also, you probably could cut probes at 60 or 65 if you had to for safety. That'll require a lot more testing.
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what about carriers?
if you push right before, the zerg has put all of their tech and time into roaches which actually just can't touch carriers . then you use carriers to rip up and destroy their base. take out the roach warren? then push with voids too, they kill roaches when charged really fast.
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My apologies, yes the user below maybe have been right . Sorry for derailing ><
User was warned for derrailing
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On March 23 2012 09:23 TheNessman wrote:
LOL This thread is so funny
it's like looking for the ultimate answer to PvZ when there really just is none. i want to high light some of this other dudes post:
" I just want to make a point.
I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking.
You can:
A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg
B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number."
this is just the definition of defending or attacking.
"Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it."
this is just a strategy idea, that has not been fully formed yet, do not take it to at it's final form.
"Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals" ok this is explaining the difference mining vespene and minerals.
I'm not trying hate or anything here, i really like your clear, well thought out and well said post, but it is really funny that the sc2 forums communicate in tihs way.
Dont see anything funny. You must be high or drunk
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On March 23 2012 09:23 TheNessman wrote:
LOL This thread is so funny
it's like looking for the ultimate answer to PvZ when there really just is none. i want to high light some of this other dudes post:
" I just want to make a point.
I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking.
You can:
A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg
B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number."
this is just the definition of defending or attacking.
"Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it."
this is just a strategy idea, that has not been fully formed yet, do not take it to at it's final form.
"Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals" ok this is explaining the difference mining vespene and minerals.
I'm not trying hate or anything here, i really like your clear, well thought out and well said post, but it is really funny that the sc2 forums communicate in tihs way.
yeah it's pretty funny comparing stuff between a 13 year old game, and a 3 year old game.
Why would you want bring 'sc2 is lololol' type discussions in here?
If you can't explain something simply, then you don't understand it well enough. These guys are trying to explain stuff in a simple manner, so that everyone can understand.
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On March 23 2012 09:23 TheNessman wrote:
LOL This thread is so funny
it's like looking for the ultimate answer to PvZ when there really just is none. i want to high light some of this other dudes post:
" I just want to make a point.
I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking.
You can:
A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg
B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number."
this is just the definition of defending or attacking.
"Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it."
this is just a strategy idea, that has not been fully formed yet, do not take it to at it's final form.
"Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals" ok this is explaining the difference mining vespene and minerals.
I'm not trying hate or anything here, i really like your clear, well thought out and well said post, but it is really funny that the sc2 forums communicate in tihs way.
User was warned for derrailing
says the dude who suggests going carriers vs 12 minute mass roach timings
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On March 23 2012 07:31 RaNgeD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 07:24 VoirDire wrote:On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:Alright guys, here comes a big post. Sorry if I repeat part of my previous posts, I just want to make a point. I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking. You can: A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number. Of course that's just a general statement but you get my point. So basically since i'm more of a macro player, i've been experimenting with some builds that will allow me to get out a faster 3rd base, and I wanted to share and maybe get some feedback. Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it. I feel like in order to stop the 12-13 minute roach max-out timing, the faster you have your 3rd base the better off you will be because you will have mined more minerals and therefore you can have more units. The reason that I think that this is viable is because the zerg takes 3 hatch so fast that they delay their gas for so long that they won't have speedlings for a very long time. In the replay you will see me build my extra gateways on the outside of my base, forming a simcity. The idea behind this is that the less holes in my defense there are, the less I need forcefields, and that means less sentries. Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals. It allows me to take my 3rd base off of just 3 gas, which is a very important part of the build because those extra minerals that I am saving are allowing me to get my 3rd nexus and extra gateways up much much faster. Since I'm playing defensively you will see that I skip a robo until i've started blink and +2 weapons. My +2 is so fast that I can easily deal with his roaches without immortals by the time he maxes out. The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231 To be fair, that guy didn't execute the build as well as he could have. He had 124 supply at 10:30 vs your 93. If he would have executed the "stephano roach push" better he could have 150 or even 160 supply at 10:30 which does a world of difference, he was about 30 seconds behind on everything. He didn't roach drone saturation until 8:20 and didn't start producing his roaches until 8:50. I've tried to deconstruct the exact timings in stephanos build In this thread. Yeah he definitely missed some injects and didn't play as perfectly as Stephano can I'll try to find a high level zerg that will maybe play 10 games or so with me, just to work out the flaws and give a zerg a chance to decide the best way to react to it. Then I can make a decision whether or not I want to sack the build and move on to experimenting with other builds. If any GM zerg thinks they can play perfect up until the 13~14 minute mark and wouldn't mind playing some games with me, shoot me a pm.
I'm loving your input in this thread. As a lowly diamond who likes to take fast thirds, I have been waiting for you pros to demonstrate the viability of such strats at the GM level (I realize we've already discussed this quite a bit in the thread on Brown's VR into fast 3rd). I'm looking forward to the replay.
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On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:Alright guys, here comes a big post. Sorry if I repeat part of my previous posts, I just want to make a point. I am of the opinion that you have only several options when playing against zerg, stylistically speaking. You can: A) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with the zerg B) Do timing attacks or harass to damage, slow down, or straight up kill the zerg before he hits hive tech and or reaches that money drone number. Of course that's just a general statement but you get my point. So basically since i'm more of a macro player, i've been experimenting with some builds that will allow me to get out a faster 3rd base, and I wanted to share and maybe get some feedback. Before you watch, I just want to outline the build and explain why I do what I do, and the ideaology behind it. I feel like in order to stop the 12-13 minute roach max-out timing, the faster you have your 3rd base the better off you will be because you will have mined more minerals and therefore you can have more units. The reason that I think that this is viable is because the zerg takes 3 hatch so fast that they delay their gas for so long that they won't have speedlings for a very long time. In the replay you will see me build my extra gateways on the outside of my base, forming a simcity. The idea behind this is that the less holes in my defense there are, the less I need forcefields, and that means less sentries. Therefore I don't need as much gas, and can mine more minerals. It allows me to take my 3rd base off of just 3 gas, which is a very important part of the build because those extra minerals that I am saving are allowing me to get my 3rd nexus and extra gateways up much much faster. Since I'm playing defensively you will see that I skip a robo until i've started blink and +2 weapons. My +2 is so fast that I can easily deal with his roaches without immortals by the time he maxes out. The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231
Love the development of this style. My two cents on this build, comparing it to the titan build: A three hatch zerg with about 65 drones and 3 queens can make about 65 roaches, which come in three waves of 21 each every 40 seconds assuming perfect injects (3+4 larvae per hatch). This doesn't count the larvae spent on ovys, of which he will need about 14-15. So this is roughly 20 roaches per wave (3-5 ovys per cycle). Assuming the first roaches will start trickling through by about 9 minutes, there is a 2 minute window before the zerg maxes. Roach speed should be done by this time. +1 attack is the only upgrade.
In the Titan replay, Titan first engages up near the middle of the map, through the choke where each wave comes through. He decimates the first wave of 20 slow roaches with an immortal, stalker, sentry and zealot force. Stephano reinforces with lings in the second wave, but it too is shut down. Eventually he picks off the sentries and titan doesnt replace them, forcing him back in front of his natural. By this time he is reinforcing off 3 bases with stalkers and immortals. The trades are less favourable though, since without sentries, the speed roaches run wild. However, Titan has enough to push stephano back and win with double robo colossus.
The fact that the roaches come in 3 waves, especially if rallied seems to be useful. If you have enough to consistently defeat 20 speed roaches, and don't lose much in each engagement, while incrementally bolstering your numbers (you can reinforce from 7 gates every 32 seconds with perfect warp ins), simply rallying units should not work i.e. the zerg has to gather up his roaches and try a multi pronged attack or bumrush you. Either way, your sentries should still be alive when this happens, and with a favourable position, ffs can hold off any number of roaches.
The build above includes elements more favourable to getting together a 20 roach kill hit squad. Blink with sentries will punish any over eagerness on the part of the first couple of rallies and +2 later will exploit the lack of upgrades on the roaches. While titan goes for earlier immortals imo this build with the faster blink and later robo is safer against a tech switch. Sentries are key.
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On March 23 2012 02:57 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:43 Greenknight wrote:On March 23 2012 02:20 Treehead wrote:
People who are citing zerg's inject mechanic as a reason you can't FFE should remember that zerg also loses drones any time they make a building, so for a pool, 2 hatches, 3 gas and a roach warren - that's nearly 2 injects gone entirely to buildings. Now recall that they also must make overlords for their supply heavy army, that they only get a larva every 15 seconds apart from inject, and you can start to see why CBing workers keeps you close if not equal to zerg's economy until all his infrastructure is up, but only if you build your Nexus around they same time they throw down a hatch. This is the reason people FFE, and the reason a lot of zerg's used to think that you couldn't let protoss get away with FFE and keep up economically unless your build was very unsafe. Yes, he loses drones when he makes buildings, but that´s mostly important if those buildings come early when his worker count is low. The 3 gases you mention dont come early when you FFE. And having to make lings for defense is far more important in the early minutes of the game than it is later because the larvae cost is less significant later on. Please stop guys. If you want to talk FFE vs gateway expand, open your own thread. Otherwise, stop derailing this one. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:15 mooseman1710 wrote:
what do you guys think of this new shift in not even maxing on roaches if toss gets a third. instead stephano gets his 4th and 5th and makes 150 drones and 50 spines and spams 8 infestors + corruptors. does that not scare you more than this roach spam?
Depends a on the map, but in general, no. If Z goes straight for lategame, I can play greedy and go straight for lategame as well. Given the choice between fighting maxed roaches with 120 supply of stalker/sentry/immortal or fighting maxed infestor broodlord with maxed mothership/carrier/archon, I'll take the latter every time.
I do not think you can outtech a Zerg if he goes for Broodlord Infestor in a greedy manner. Basically you would need a mother ship and archons at 15 minutes where the Zerg would already have Broodlord Infestor and attacking your base.
There was one ladder game on Shakuras where Stephano was commentating and he basically laughed at the Protoss trying to play greedily into late game how you described. If you do not attack then you will die as the Zerg late game will hit you faster than you can get the Toss one.
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hihi :D im high masters zerg and been fooling around with this mass roach style i thought id chip in on the protoss dicussion. Some maps just dont allow for protoss to take a third just to be clear about it, on those maps either do pressure builds or all in builds but this has been said before but just confirming it from the zerg side of the story :p.
This style relies on getting rid of the heavy hitters from protoss (immortals / sentries) if protoss manages to keep his immortals alive and continues to have acces to forcefields he can beat this but the moment you run out, the roach will roll over you. I feel like it's more interesting to look at a way to conserve those critical units during the roach timing rather than messing with build orders. I feel like you can delay blink by a bit because in the first few engagement some extra immortals / sentries are actually gamewinning. I feel like having 5 more or less stalkers wont cut it (sligthly earlyer or later third). I would like to have a protoss try getting his robo out really early so he can build up 4/5 immortals quite quickly. or something in this trend like engineer a way to have alot of sentry energy and a high immortal count when you expand. This is in my opinion the best way to approach beating it by build order.
Also army movement mid game can be really rewarding denying scouting information and sharking your army around for a while. If you know the timings well you can pull back before it gets scary and maybe make zerg stop droning at 50 instead of 60 all the little bits help.
If i was protoss id hotkey my entire army on 3 then equally divide all their units between the other two control groups so when multipronged you dont mess up your army split and end up getting overrun because you lack forcefields or immortals on one side.
You just need to survive long enough; at some point protoss army snowballs and becomes unstopable.
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Ranged and kcdc, what do you think about the greedy fast thirds that White-Ra took during his games vs. Stephano? He was overrun every game when he tried it in the beginning, but later on he learned to add more units, and took two games off of Stephano, both on Antiga Shipyards, by taking a fast third and pumping a lot of gateway units.
Stephano adapted to that build by going roach/hydra and hitting before colossi during the final match they played in Lone Star, which was on Antiga, but the game was close enough that it made me think that it was a viable build as long as you didn't make the mistake of moving out without colossi.
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EPT
