EPT- Dual Sight
- Bel'Shir Beach
- Daybreak
- Korhal Compound
All look the same. Kind of.
Why such limited creativity when making maps - Page 8
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usethis2
2164 Posts
- Dual Sight - Bel'Shir Beach - Daybreak - Korhal Compound All look the same. Kind of. | ||
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Champloo
Germany1850 Posts
I remember in Warcraft 3 every map had something different from the other that changed playstyle. But there were neutral buildings, creeps, healing fountains, mana fountains etc. Starcraft 2 kinda doesn't have anything to change from map to map except for Xelnaga towers. | ||
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ScaSully
United States488 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
We narrow down the formula to what works and what doesn't. There are some clearly silly ideas that many people think are great ideas. Coming up with cool concepts is much more subtle than what you'd think. Cloud Kingdom is so unique, but many people don't think it's much different than other maps. That's because the general public as a whole doesn't have the understanding of how gameplay actually works. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Unfortunately the kind of skills that you need on those kind of maps are so different than the kind of skills you see on the Korean-dominated pro scene that it has pretty much deteriorated. Reverse Lost Temple might have been a bad map, but Lost Temple itself was awful, imbalanced and boring to begin with. I refused to play LT back in SC1 because people had made such ridiculous builds that depended on perfect placement of every building and the time it takes to get from base to base that it made creative play less efficient and thus pointless. And as the creative player abandoned SC for newer games when Battle.Net became a ghost town, all the SC community we have left is the people who played rote strategies with no original thinking or variation, and these are by a vast majority the people that make up teamliquid and have dominated the pro scene for SC2. | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
As for island maps... I didn't even like them in BW to be honest, lol. I Just want ladder to have some BW maps in it like Destination and Fighting Spirit.. oh man that would be awesome. Wouldn't it be nice to play on a map where the land goes to the edge of the screen so you don't have 30 miles of drop space on the perimeter of your base? That's the one thing I hate about some SC2 maps is that they have a ton of air space around the mains and don't go to the edge of the screen. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On February 27 2012 05:00 neobowman wrote: You know why islands were removed in BW? Because they were imbalanced. We narrow down the formula to what works and what doesn't. There are some clearly silly ideas that many people think are great ideas. Coming up with cool concepts is much more subtle than what you'd think. Cloud Kingdom is so unique, but many people don't think it's much different than other maps. That's because the general public as a whole doesn't have the understanding of how gameplay actually works. But, doing this is bad because it entrenches bad design decisions. If island maps are imbalanced, that shows the game is badly designed and that design needs to be fixed, now we can have island maps! If non-mirrored maps are imbalanced, fix it! If maps with gold spots everywhere are imbalanced, fix it! Then we'll have even more exciting games, and pros won't have time to compete on all maps, they'll have to choose some maps to specialize in, or just be generally good, and then we'll reward the most creative and fastest learning players instead of those best able to practice by rote, And we'll have player 1 that's best on island maps, and player 2 that's best on BGH2, and player 3 that is best on completely new maps, and then we'll have a triathlon and see whose the best of the best of the best and that will be a sight to see! | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On February 27 2012 05:51 GoldenH wrote: But, doing this is bad because it entrenches bad design decisions. If island maps are imbalanced, that shows the game is badly designed and that design needs to be fixed, now we can have island maps! If non-mirrored maps are imbalanced, fix it! If maps with gold spots everywhere are imbalanced, fix it! Then we'll have even more exciting games, and pros won't have time to compete on all maps, they'll have to choose some maps to specialize in, or just be generally good, and then we'll reward the most creative and fastest learning players instead of those best able to practice by rote, And we'll have player 1 that's best on island maps, and player 2 that's best on BGH2, and player 3 that is best on completely new maps, and then we'll have a triathlon and see whose the best of the best of the best and that will be a sight to see! How do you propose we fix it? What pro is going to play on an all-gold map? Not only would it be near impossible to get high level people playing on it, the amount of time it'd take to work out balance on a completely new set of principles would be enormous if even possible. | ||
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coolcor
520 Posts
On February 27 2012 03:01 Ghost.573 wrote: Kespa won't switch. 1. because they make plenty of money on BW. 2. Blizzard won't give them the right for tournaments. Did you already forget the war between Kespa and Blizzard when SC2 started.....? Why does everyone act like Blizzard and Kespa never settled blizzard already sold them a tournament license for BW. Do you have a source for them making plenty of money on BW? Especially now with team 8 not having a sponsor and OSL missing it seems like they are in big trouble. If you believe Milkies they never had a lot of money. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305648¤tpage=12#235 It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult. Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations. Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story. Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =( | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
I mean, come on, how long did it take non-ladder maps to get into tourneys, just because pro's couldn't practice on them? We've got to get custom ladders for custom maps and custom tournaments, or the game can't be balanced or have map diversity. | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On February 27 2012 05:51 GoldenH wrote: But, doing this is bad because it entrenches bad design decisions. If island maps are imbalanced, that shows the game is badly designed and that design needs to be fixed, now we can have island maps! If non-mirrored maps are imbalanced, fix it! If maps with gold spots everywhere are imbalanced, fix it! Then we'll have even more exciting games, and pros won't have time to compete on all maps, they'll have to choose some maps to specialize in, or just be generally good, and then we'll reward the most creative and fastest learning players instead of those best able to practice by rote, And we'll have player 1 that's best on island maps, and player 2 that's best on BGH2, and player 3 that is best on completely new maps, and then we'll have a triathlon and see whose the best of the best of the best and that will be a sight to see! So you're saying BW was a bad game because the balance is map dependant? If you make balance map independant you get the most boring design you could ever imagine or no balance at all. Also I'd like to hear Nony what he thinks about your point of players specialising on one kind of map, I think he would be incredibly cheerful if Island maps return to the proscene. The only thing that could top that are extended series in every tournament. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
To sum up this whole thread and answer it. Players don't play maps not in tournaments. Tournaments don't use non standard maps. Thus there is no point to making non standard maps. /End | ||
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Treva
United States533 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5774 Posts
On February 26 2012 06:52 Wroshe wrote: Because maps primarily have to be good (read: balanced). Being funny is not an objective in any way, shape or form. In fact, most maps that have gone overboard were also shit. Do you remember the following maps? * Slag Pits (no 3rd bases) * Jungle Basin (very hard to take 3rd bases) * Lost Temple or Kulas Ravine (very hard to defend natural with the cliff) * Blistering Sands (backdoor in the main) * Shakuras Plateau (earliest version had the backdoor rocks) The reason you don't see these ideas being worked with is because even Blizzard realizes that it's shit. As to all gold: it would be incredibly terran favored. Marines are already cost effective against pretty much every unit in the game and they don't cost gas. As you are referring to Brood War I'll also make a BW reference. Do you remember Reverse Temple? It was creative as hell, it was also shit. Blistering Sands wasn't a bad map  . I'd agree with the other ones, though, | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On February 27 2012 06:14 Bommes wrote: So you're saying BW was a bad game because the balance is map dependant? If you make balance map independant you get the most boring design you could ever imagine or no balance at all. Also I'd like to hear Nony what he thinks about your point of players specialising on one kind of map, I think he would be incredibly cheerful if Island maps return to the proscene. The only thing that could top that are extended series in every tournament. BW was a great game because you could have such a wild variety of maps and still have a diversity of exciting strategies to watch and play. The balance on island maps isn't perfect in BW, but that could have been improved. However the balance on island maps is ABSOLUTELY AWFUL in starcraft 2, the various ATG/ATA/GTA forces aren't event remotely balanced. This is a big reason why terrain is meaningless in SC2, ever time you try and put interesting terrain in the way, it's going to cause imbalance and the map will have to be scrapped. But if the air was balanced, more terrain would be more exciting instead! As to what Nony says, well of course, pro's have admitted time and time again they don't want changes, they don't want new maps, they don't want balance changes, they don't want new strategies, because they play for money and they already are committed to their playstyle and knowledge base that will take time to update with any change. But if he's being honest he'd admit that it'd be awesome if the game was balanced to allow for island maps. He just won't know how to do it. | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
It would be fun to play on weird maps, but I don't think many people out there are willing to do them, yet. | ||
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DemonDeacon
United States158 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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xxgeffxx
United States119 Posts
Want to know what the most "popular maps"(most played) on NA server are? Monobattles, 2v2 Discord IV, Shattered Temple, Korhal Compound, 2v2 Shattered Temple, MacroMicro Shattered Temple, Xel'naga Caverns, Fastest Map Possible, and Cloud Kingdom. With Mods such as monobattles and Fastest in there, I think it's safe to say that these types of maps are just as popular amongst battle.net players and the only real "problem" is 1)getting more maps in there and 2) overcoming the UI to get these maps to the front page. If anyone is interested and has time: I've created an All Gold/All Rich Gas version of one the most balanced maps there is: Tal'darim Altar LE, named "Rich Tal'darim Altar LE", play it more than 1 time and I'm pretty sure it will still promote macro play as well as be balanced against in all matchups | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On February 27 2012 10:12 DemonDeacon wrote: maybe you should lobby one of the leagues to open a gimmicky league like the harlem globe trotters for sc2 where you can see stuff like that being done. Otherwise it won't happen for all the reasons stated above Its pointless without also balance changes to the map. Really SC2 is a sport ruled by its advertisers. If I want to change the face of SC2 I would have to sell it to their advertisers. | ||
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