I was going to post this in the LR thread but it got bigger so I felt it deserved a full thread. Unlike most (but not all) Savior fans I've been realistic about MJY 2009 edition from the start. But of course I still hoped against hope for a better result. I know a lot of people are tired of Savior threads and Savior fans. But I think this deserves to be said.
Now that Savior's latest MSL run is over, I think it's fairly safe to say that he'll never win another Starleague. He'll still be a really good player (he's both overrated and underrated much more often than properly rated, but realistically, most days he's a top 5 or borderline top 5 Zerg who has a chance to win against almost anyone). He'll be seeded in the next MSL and can definitely still make another RO8 or two - maaaaybe even more.
The shame in this latest loss is that it's official. People who started watching SC in March 2007 or later will never, never truly understand why Savior is, or was, a truly unique player. People understand why the other bonjwas are special:
Boxer is the Emperor, the original and forever king of SC. Every great micro play and brilliant build has a little Boxer in it, and we remember him each time it happens, even if we don't get to see him play that much anymore. And of course, once in awhile we're still lucky enough to see it happen.
Nada is the phenom before the phenom, the first iteration of the child wonder a la Flash, winningest and most consistent player ever. Every upcoming Terran phenom will forever remind us of what Nada was once, and his incredibly consistency means we get to see a decent amount of him even today. If Flash goes on to become the greatest player ever (if BW doesn't die because of SC2, I think he'll get there eventually), Nada's legacy will live on all the more. But that's not at all necessary - Nada will forever be defined by winning. As long as winning is a part of SC, Nada will be remembered, and remembered well.
Oov is the true greatest revolutionist. He changed the way the entire game was played - every single matchup (except ZvZ). The entire game is now a continuous tribute to Oov. Every macro monster is forever linked to him. Every monster winning streak will forever remind us of the great Cheater Terran. Boxer made SC, and Oov remade it into a "final" form in some sense. The game will keep evolving but monster macro, even if it becomes 10 times more refined than what Oov first introduced, will always be a part of the game. And, due to the commentator controlled view of matches, there will always be that element of "surprise, giant army!", and we'll always remember Oov when that happens.
You guys gotta understand - the game may have been different back in 2006, but it wasn't THAT different. Savior's macro might merely be average now relative to the field, but the things he did to win games back then would STILL WIN GAMES NOW. The Bisu game was a passable example of this - a little scrappier than the dominant Maestro of 2006, but still acceptable. Savior controlled that game and it's the tension from it being Bisu versus Savior in 2009 instead of some Protoss versus Savior in 2006 that made the difference between us seeing it as a dominant performance by the Maestro who always wins all his coin flips and created his own luck 5 times a game, and a scrappy, close match eeked out by an underdog. I mean, come on, I know the game was reasonably close but Bisu was ELIMINATED. The greatest Protoss player to ever play the game was straight up eliminated in a non-fluke situation (such as base trade)!
This brings me to my main point. The loss to SC isn't that Savior doesn't win leagues anymore. The loss to SC is that Savior's sixth sense, the intangible force that defined his reign of terror will never be back. You can try to explain Savior's bonjwa reign, but it never feels completely satisfying. Sometimes you just can't explain things with words.
I casually ran into SC VODs all the time starting in 2002, but didn't really start watching consistently until 2006. I hadn't played the game for five years at the time and had no idea what was going on in the games. But, when I watched Savior play, I knew he was winning. Even before I had any idea who he was, and had any knowledge whatsoever of the SC proscene, I saw this guy whose aka was Savior play, and I could tell he was the best. I'll never quite understand it, and it is impossible to explain. It's not like I only watched his wins, and it's not like I watched them hand him a giant trophy or check after games. I just saw the games and it registered with me, somehow, some way. It was a long time before I recognized any other players and started looking to places like TL to learn more about the proscene. But I knew Savior was the best player at the time, even before I knew what a Starleague was.
And, more importantly, I knew Savior had some sort of remarkable game sense, something that couldn't be explained. Indeed I wasn't even surprised when I started reading about him on places like TL and discovered that other people, even those who followed progaming much more closely than me, couldn't quite explain it either.
We might get perfect players one day but we'll never see another player with that kind of sense. It can't be taught. It's like winning the lottery - it's astounding enough that it even happened once!
Just look at SC's evolution. It's inconceivable that the game would never have a micro revolutionist (the first obvious thing to become amazing at), or a macro revolutionist (the next level), or these micro/macro hybrid monsters that also know timings and builds and all-ins by heart. If people kept playing long enough, it was bound to happen. And indeed that's what happened. Even creative builds are just that - creative. Certainly they are extremely impressive, but play the game long enough and every creative build will show up, eventually. Of course we're a long way from exhausting them all, but that's not the point. If you had infinite time to build a program on a computer with virtually unlimited processing power to play SC, you could build yourself each player in history. Except Savior.
And that's why people love him even now, and that's why it's truly truly sad that while he may still reach another RO8 or two, the 'Maestro' will never be back. Because unlike other players, it doesn't feel like Savior "had to happen". Boxer had to happen - somebody had to be the father of the game for it to survive the beginning, and he happened to take on that role. Nada had to happen - someone has to be the winningest player ever. Maybe not as early as Nada, but it was bound to happen. Oov had to happen - macro is such a fundamental part of SC the game as a science that the emergence of an Oov was as inevitable as someone eventually discovering gravity. I say these things without meaning to take away one ounce of what Boxer, Nada, and Oov did. What they did was truly unique, and they deserve all the credit in the world for being the people to do it. They will always be legends, and deservedly so.
Michael Jordan didn't win the most championships in NBA history or score the most points (though he is #1 in average), but still he stands out above Russell, Wilt, Baylor, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and even now LeBron, Kobe, Wade, and more. It's because while great players and winning players had to happen, Michael Jordan didn't have to happen. He just happened, and people were all the luckier to have gotten to see it. It seems inconceivable that anyone will ever supplant Jordan in the public mind, even if man-machines like LeBron come along and shatter all preconceptions of what is possible for a human being. Yes, this is partly a byproduct of being in the right place at the right time, but that's how everything works in the world.
Same goes for Savior. Savior didn't have to happen. He was an anomaly, a tangent, a detour, taken by the game on the way to it becoming more science than art, on the way to the skill level of the playing field becoming so high that bonjwa-level dominance seems unlikely to ever happen again. Watching Savior in his prime was like watching a meteor shower without understanding what it is. You can't quite explain it so you just sit back and enjoy the show. Like every other bonjwa, the playing field caught up to Savior. But, unlike the other bonjwas, it also feels like Savior lost his throne just as much as it was taken from him. The spark that made him special, the spark that started to fade after Bisu 3-0'd him - it never ever came back. Still, Savior was in the right place at the right time, and he made the most of it.
Interesting point to make although I disagree that Savior didn't have to happen. Savior specialized in the art of timing - a fundamental part of the game today. Savior was a unique player who lived his entire bonjwa career on a knife edge. He was able to conjure up the exact right combination of units at the exact right time to win his games. Perfect examples of this lie in Savior vs Daezang on Peaks and Savior vs Nada on Longinus.
Savior's ability to wait right up until the last possible moment to engage with the bare minimum units to stave off the attack - and then ride his advantage from winning the battle to victory - made for some of the most breathtaking moments in all of Starcraft. Obviously, once he started to lose his immaculate grip on timing (and hence his sense) his games started to look like complete rapes (as he was caught with too few units and what not). Of course no one expects Savior to return to this truly amazing state, but him winning another league is not inconceivable - once a champion, always a champion.
The timing Savior had in his day, is now commonplace amongst all the top players - perhaps to a lesser extent than it was in Savior, but its still there. Look at Jaedong's play for instance, during his golden run last year around this time, he was able to stall terran long enough with his mutalisk harass to build up an impressive army and win. His ability to maximize damage with very few units requires precision timing in when to engage, and then when to power drones and what not. This, in my opinion, is the direct result of Savior. Every top gamer now possesses this art of timing and thus is able to keep winning games like Savior did. Another example i just thought of is Flash vs Stork in the Bacchus group stage on Blue Storm.
Savior had to happen, his immaculate timing is one of the fundamental aspects of top tier gaming in today environment - just as much as macro or micro.
Every Bonjwa has a sense about them which allows them to excel in a particular area. For Boxer is was Micro, for Nada it was Management, for Oov it was Macro, for Savior is was Timing (and for Bisu it is harass in my opinion). This sense later disappears as it is permeated about the progaming scene and becomes common place amongst other gamers and hence they lose their star quality. Nevertheless, they will remain champions and will always be a threat no matter what age they live in.
On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote: WTF are u talking about ? Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC.
Great post. I remember watching Savior play and thought it was so perfect, so flawless, that I couldn't conceive of a way he could be beaten. It was the way he always incorporated these little nuances I had thought uncontrollable and insignificant into a larger, cohesive game plan, and how he seemed to have a plan for everything. From the way he consistently owned a prime oov, absorbing and deflecting every big terran blob with defiler control to his calm handling of every trick Nal_Ra could throw at him, I thought he was the final incarnation of the evolution of BW. I completely despaired of finding an opponent that could restore balance to the BW world.
evolution of sc is like a never stopping train, once you get off its really hard to catch it up again. But this is just another version of the truth. I think the main reason for savior fading away is that he lost the aura of immortality around him. This happens all the time in other sports as well, for example the tennis. Its not like Federer is playing bad, just his opponents dont have the "oh, god I'm playing vs Federer, I will lose fore sure" mind set anymore. Sometimes your reputation is just enough to win you games... Thou beating bisu, really warmed the hearts of his fans
ouch spoiler... yea i remember watching a few of saviors old vods and it seems to be as though he has maphack on or something, abit like the elite few players today who can catch sneakdrops/proxies etc. magically at exactly the right timing.
On February 26 2009 21:33 Plexa wrote: Savior's ability to wait right up until the last possible moment to engage with the bare minimum units to stave off the attack - and then ride his advantage from winning the battle to victory - made for some of the most breathtaking moments in all of Starcraft. Obviously, once he started to lose his immaculate grip on timing (and hence his sense) his games started to look like complete rapes (as he was caught with too few units and what not). Of course no one expects Savior to return to this truly amazing state, but him winning another league is not inconceivable - once a champion, always a champion.
The timing Savior had in his day, is now commonplace amongst all the top players - perhaps to a lesser extent than it was in Savior, but its still there. Look at Jaedong's play for instance, during his golden run last year around this time, he was able to stall terran long enough with his mutalisk harass to build up an impressive army and win. His ability to maximize damage with very few units requires precision timing in when to engage, and then when to power drones and what not. This, in my opinion, is the direct result of Savior. Every top gamer now possesses this art of timing and thus is able to keep winning games like Savior did. Another example i just thought of is Flash vs Stork in the Bacchus group stage on Blue Storm.
I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? Maybe the reason Savior reigned when he did is because it was such an era of standard play. Not the same standard play we see nowadays, but the older less refined standard play. The one that doesn't have years and years of feedback to make it easily "tweakable" based on the situation. In an age when timing pushes are so much more common at all levels, the standard builds have got to adapt and players no longer crumble when their opponents know exactly how far ahead they are in their tech.
Of course Saviors genius wasn't about just beating brainless standard play. It was much more complex, but I totally agree when you say that great timing is seen much more frequently nowadays. However I think it's been taken to a whole new level. Now players time their moves more precisely because they can assimilate more information. I'll use you're example of stalling a terran with mutalisk harass. The amount of damage done with those mutas will enable the player to know exactly how much the terran was delayed in his tech, thus telling him when he has to make his next move and how urgent it is for him to reach hive tech. I think this used to be more about feeling, but nowadays it just seems so much more precise and rigorous. It feels like it's been made into a science, not just instinct.
Feel free to tell me if i'm mistaken, although i've been following the scene for about 5/6 years now i've had some pretty long breaks so I must have missed some important stuff going on.
On February 26 2009 21:33 Plexa wrote: Savior's ability to wait right up until the last possible moment to engage with the bare minimum units to stave off the attack - and then ride his advantage from winning the battle to victory - made for some of the most breathtaking moments in all of Starcraft. Obviously, once he started to lose his immaculate grip on timing (and hence his sense) his games started to look like complete rapes (as he was caught with too few units and what not). Of course no one expects Savior to return to this truly amazing state, but him winning another league is not inconceivable - once a champion, always a champion.
The timing Savior had in his day, is now commonplace amongst all the top players - perhaps to a lesser extent than it was in Savior, but its still there. Look at Jaedong's play for instance, during his golden run last year around this time, he was able to stall terran long enough with his mutalisk harass to build up an impressive army and win. His ability to maximize damage with very few units requires precision timing in when to engage, and then when to power drones and what not. This, in my opinion, is the direct result of Savior. Every top gamer now possesses this art of timing and thus is able to keep winning games like Savior did. Another example i just thought of is Flash vs Stork in the Bacchus group stage on Blue Storm.
I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? Maybe the reason Savior reigned when he did is because it was such an era of standard play. Not the same standard play we see nowadays, but the older less refined standard play. The one that doesn't have years and years of feedback to make it easily "tweakable" based on the situation. In an age when timing pushes are so much more common at all levels, the standard builds have got to adapt and players no longer crumble when their opponents know exactly how far ahead they are in their tech.
Of course Saviors genius wasn't about just beating brainless standard play. It was much more complex, but I totally agree when you say that great timing is seen much more frequently nowadays. However I think it's been taken to a whole new level. Now players time their moves more precisely because they can assimilate more information. I'll use you're example of stalling a terran with mutalisk harass. The amount of damage done with those mutas will enable the player to know exactly how much the terran was delayed in his tech, thus telling him when he has to make his next move and how urgent it is for him to reach hive tech. I think this used to be more about feeling, but nowadays it just seems so much more precise and rigorous. It feels like it's been made into a science, not just instinct.
Feel free to tell me if i'm mistaken, although i've been following the scene for about 5/6 years now i've had some pretty long breaks so I must have missed some important stuff going on.
It was timing int he conventional sense, it was reading the game and knowing precisely what to expect and when to expect it and what he needed to defend it. I mean Jaedong's mutalisk harass was a very poor example to use, it was just the first one that popped into my head haha. Stork vs Flash on Blue Storm from Bacchus group stage is a much better example of what Savior imparted on the scene.
Where you say this game is all about science you are completely and utterly wrong. Micro/Macro is such an important facet of this game, I'll agree, but it is no where near a science. Two examples come to mind; Best vs Flash from the OSL recent - all logic tells us Best would lose after canceling the Nexus but no, he won. And another is a game that i saw on Protoss Season 4
Explain to me how Best managed to win that game - because I have nooo idea. (Best vs Much on Hwarangdo btw)
Reading the game is so important these days, more so than plain old micro/macro and despite the perception the game is all about micro/macro we still have some players constantly performing better than others. Jaedong/Bisu/Flash/Stork have performed almost unwaveringly over the past year and its not because they have the best micro/macro. They have the ability to read the game, understand the game, and know when and where things are going to happen just like Savior could do in his prime. This allows them to be on another level to other gamers. Other players come and go with this sense - it's the nature of being in-form and out of form, but those four have it instinctively and is a fundamental part of their play style. And even between them there is such contrast is style between Bisu and Stork, and indeed between all four. It's just how rich this game has become once you move beyond the notion that the game is a science - it is without question an art form; each game a canvas ready to be painted with the brilliance of the gamers playing.
Except Backho, Backho is raw mechanics, zero game sense.
"I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations? Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long.
The words he spoke that day will forever bring a smile to my face not because he was beaten today but because he announced to every SC player that he regained his self-belief. Don't see this loss as THE END OF MAESTRO, just....... THE maestro losing,
Things are CONSTANTLY evolving in SC/BW and it will continue to evolve until we come full circle. Macro>Micro. Timings>Macro. Etc....
Btw I am a Bisu fan-boy but like everyone that enjoys this game, I WANT change, I WANT new player to come fort and beat my fanboy heroes. I WANT evolution and new things to try and to learn.
Thats why were still playin'....... Right?
Edit: Besides he lost a ZvZ big fucking deal, his last game was his own fault WHY O' WHY he made hactery first with a 2/1 deficet, I will never understand...
On February 26 2009 22:40 Cpt.beefy wrote: "I always read that Savior has "lost his grip on timing" but isn't it just Starcraft that has evolved again? "
Exactly, Savior timings were build over a year or so of standard play, couple that with immaculate micro and good macro and u have a Bonjwa.(of the time)
Saviors domination (especially over Toss) had nothing to do with anything, he was just reading the game over years of experience on standard play / timings.
Then efficient new builds were created with new timings and situations? Which destroyed (a) his timings (b) his aura of invicibility/self-belief (something he said in a recent interview) In the end he only lost because he was winning for SOOO long.
Eh? I disagree. TvZ didn't change one bit over the next 6~ months after GOM S1 so that can't account for Savior starting to lose to Terrans. And Protoss timings, well rather the Bisu Build, was designed to be completely anti-Saviors stlye - but it's not like FE was uncommon during Saviors reign - it was common throughout all of 2006. It was a mild adjustment to his standard play that would have solved all of his problems.
It was much more the fact that he lost his confidence and hence grip on the game. Losing to Bisu and then FBH really really hurt and took a visible toll on Savior (and his game). With doubt now factored into the equation it isn't surprising that he couldn't get his timing precisely spot on like he needed it to be for his style to work.
On February 26 2009 21:37 monstar123 wrote: WTF are u talking about ? Savior is bonjwa. How can he lose his throne ? Boxer - is nott deserves to be bonjwa. He is father of SC.
I think he lost his throne quite some time ago.
ok he lost his throne, but Boxer, Nada , OOv did not lose ?
I always felt the fall of Savior was primarly due to what happened outside of the game, rather than in but unfortunately we would never know... until Rekrul made that nightlife post, while many laughed at it as a joke I really think there was a deep hard cold truth to it.
EPT
