• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:04
CEST 09:04
KST 16:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror4[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)73Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4) StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup Back to SC2 after 14 years - Protoss CTRL groups?
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ]
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
20-year-old Valorant player starting StarCraft Sagi.gg Launcher Released Fantasy returning? BSL Season 23 Bot on ladder
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6568 users

High ground advantage

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-12 11:16:13
February 11 2009 23:30 GMT
#1

[image loading]


Units attacking from lower ground to higher ground only have a 70% chance to hit

Units that are in trees are considered to be "in cover". Any units that are in cover only have a 70% chance of being hit



Or so says Blizzards official strategy guide. But is it really true? It often feels impossible to attack units on high ground, and -30% doesn't seem like that big a deal right?

So since I recently had courses in statistics I thought it would be a fun idea to test the hypothesis about 70% hit-rate.

Gathering data
I made a map where 10 dragoons can attack a missile turret on high ground. Missile turret gets 1000 hp, no armor, and dragoons get to make 1 damage.

I then shot 10 volleys from the goons synchronized and noted the turrets hp.

This was repeated 30 times (restarting map when needed).


Analysis
The goons fired a total of 3000 shots. 1587 hit the target, giving a hit-ratio of 52.9%

What can we then say about the real value p (=probability to hit)?

+ Show Spoiler [Math] +

Well 1587 is an observation of a random variable X from Bin(3000,p).

Since n is 3000, an approximation with the normal distribution will be very accurate.

So X is~ N(3000p,sqrt(3000*p*(1-p)))

So p* = X/3000 is~ N(p,sqrt(p*(1-p)/3000))

and so on...


We can now contruct a ~99.9%-confidence interval for p:
(0.499, 0.559)

This means that the probability that p=(probability for an attack to hit from low to high ground) is somewhere between 0.499 and 0.559 is 99.9%.

Conclusion
It's definatly not a 70% hit rate, at least not on my computer.

It might also be something wrong with starcrafts randomizer in my computer or something

I also tried the same thing with a tank on high ground and a tank behind a tree. I didn't do 3000 shots, but both cases gave hit-rates around 50% just like with the turret.

I'll upload the map so you can try it yourselves.

>Map from rapidshare

Thanks for reading!

Update
Since many of you thought it might be different for other units I tried the same thing with marines and hydras but with smaller sample sizes, only 500 shots each.

Out of 1000 shots 522 hit giving a hit-ratio of 52.2%

So there's no significant difference between units which is what you'd expect from the programming point of view.
Enter a Uh
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
February 11 2009 23:31 GMT
#2
I always thought something wasn't quite right with the '70% hit' stat, thanks for confirming. :D
beefhamburger
Profile Joined December 2007
United States3962 Posts
February 11 2009 23:34 GMT
#3
I thought it was 70% chance you miss. I've seen some recent pro games where a goon is shooting a mine on a ramp and it takes roughly 8-12 shots just to hit it once (obviously just a few games).
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
February 11 2009 23:34 GMT
#4
Ditto, it always seemed to be much less then 70%. 70% would at least mean if you fire, you have a good chance to hit the unit; I've always seen it around 50% as well.
Itachii
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Poland12466 Posts
February 11 2009 23:34 GMT
#5
I always thought that the unit shooting from low ground has 33% chance of hitting the one higher o.O
and never knew about the trees thing, heh.
La parole nous a été donnée pour déguiser notre pensée
ZoW
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3983 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-12 00:09:25
February 11 2009 23:35 GMT
#6
The 70% is definitely not an accurate statistic. Sometimes units rarely miss high ground targets, sometimes they miss almost all their shots. Almost seems like Blizz left that to a random number generator or something to that extent.
the courage to be a lazy bum
Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
February 11 2009 23:39 GMT
#7
holyshit nice work!
A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
deathgod6
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States5064 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-11 23:50:48
February 11 2009 23:45 GMT
#8
Nice OP. It does feel like less than 70% when playing at times. Blizzard, fix the high ground advantage or change the statistic!

edit- I'm thinking maybe if vision plays some factor, too. Like when you lose vision of the high ground and you can't see your goon shot hit the tank because it disappeared. For example, when a nuke is being dropped, they scan the area so they have vision. Does vision play any role in getting an effective hit?
4.0 GPA = A rank 5.0 GPA = Olympic --------- Bisu, Best, Fantasy. i ♥ oov. They can get in my BoxeR anyday.
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11567 Posts
February 11 2009 23:47 GMT
#9
It probably would have worked better if you used mutas.
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
February 11 2009 23:49 GMT
#10
Highground factors in for everyone except Reach
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Tianx
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States1196 Posts
February 11 2009 23:49 GMT
#11
I've always felt like that number was a bit high, and it's nice to see someone prove just how ridiculously important high ground is. Chiming in to say great work, OP!
Intrigue: "as i've said to many others your troubles in life may be directly correlated to your dirty protoss icon"
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
February 11 2009 23:52 GMT
#12
On February 12 2009 08:49 arb wrote:
Highground factors in for everyone except Reach

Haha~~
+ Show Spoiler +
That game was the reason I did this
Enter a Uh
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
February 11 2009 23:52 GMT
#13
On February 12 2009 08:35 ZoW wrote:
The 70% is definitely not an accurate statistic. Sometimes units rarely miss high ground targets, sometimes the miss almost all their shots. Almost seems like Blizz left that to a random number generator or something to that extent.


uh. how else would you do this apart from using a form of RNG?

Interesting OP btw, the sample size and math seem to check out.. looks pretty good that it's not 70%. Maybe it was 70% at one time and changed in a later patch with the guides not updated? i find it hard to believe that blizzard either randomly pulled out a number or just decided to misinform people for fun.
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-11 23:58:29
February 11 2009 23:58 GMT
#14
Nimue would be proud to have you as a student :p
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-12 00:04:29
February 11 2009 23:59 GMT
#15
On February 12 2009 08:52 JeeJee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2009 08:35 ZoW wrote:
The 70% is definitely not an accurate statistic. Sometimes units rarely miss high ground targets, sometimes the miss almost all their shots. Almost seems like Blizz left that to a random number generator or something to that extent.


uh. how else would you do this apart from using a form of RNG?

Interesting OP btw, the sample size and math seem to check out.. looks pretty good that it's not 70%. Maybe it was 70% at one time and changed in a later patch with the guides not updated? i find it hard to believe that blizzard either randomly pulled out a number or just decided to misinform people for fun.

I'll check this in the original, non-updated starcraft.

Apparently the 1.00 exe runs at 1.15.3 for me =/ 1.09b has 50% hitrate as well, I don't have any older ones here.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
February 11 2009 23:59 GMT
#16
On February 12 2009 08:52 jtan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2009 08:49 arb wrote:
Highground factors in for everyone except Reach

Haha~~
+ Show Spoiler +
That game was the reason I did this


what game? Link please
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
jtan
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden5891 Posts
February 12 2009 00:01 GMT
#17
On February 12 2009 08:59 LemOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2009 08:52 jtan wrote:
On February 12 2009 08:49 arb wrote:
Highground factors in for everyone except Reach

Haha~~
+ Show Spoiler +
That game was the reason I did this


what game? Link please

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqSwXOdv2uE&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50875&currentpage=247

Reach vs Young from today, nothing special but at one point reach attacks uphill and kicks ass
Enter a Uh
DanceCommander
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1808 Posts
February 12 2009 00:06 GMT
#18
+ Show Spoiler +
I was amazed too but those storms really dealt a lot of damage.. Plus I think young sort of took the high ground safety for granted
Twisted
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands13554 Posts
February 12 2009 00:08 GMT
#19
I always thought it was 50%. Never knew about the 70% statistic but I know that can't be right.
Moderator
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
February 12 2009 00:22 GMT
#20
Nice post! Very cool.

Blizzard starcraft guides also mention wraith rushing in TvP is good because you can harass their probe lines. lul.
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 57m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyun 60
NotJumperer 57
sorry 53
Bale 33
Noble 13
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
Britney 0
Dota 2
febbydoto191
League of Legends
JimRising 549
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King106
Other Games
summit1g8052
Coldzera 728
ceh9414
WinterStarcraft401
C9.Mang0286
Sick125
NeuroSwarm93
ViBE21
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick564
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream37
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2279
League of Legends
• Rush1080
• Stunt401
• Jankos352
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
2h 57m
Soma vs Soulkey
INu's Battles
3h 57m
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
16h 57m
Patches Events
1d 8h
The PondCast
2 days
INu's Battles
2 days
Percival vs TBD
TBD vs herO
OSC
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
OSC
3 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Patches Events
5 days
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
HCC Season 3
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.