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In a couple days me and a zerg have to play two Ts for a really big chinese tournament. It will be two 1v1s on tau and peaks, two team melees on gaia and python, and one 2v2 on Hunters. Normally we'd have no chance against them because one of the Ts is chinatttt/iloveyoukh who's really good. But my partner suggested a build I thought might give us an edge in the team melees and maybe pull out a fluke win in one of the 1v1s.
There are several ways to do this build and I'm debating which one would be the best vs a normal up terran which is 2 ebay 1 port 1 fact. The general build is: 3 hatch mutalisk, upgrade early, mass muta ling, expo, skip lurker, fast hive, then ultra den early with +4 ultras and cracklings vs +2 marines.
Some of the important points to this build is, you need a lot of drones for zerglings, ability to mass expo when ultras are out, and economy if one of your expos get killed. You need to stop terran's 3rd base, 2nd expo no matter what or else it will get a lot harder. And you need to upgrade very early.
My zerg partner suggests that we get a queen and upgrade ensnare before going to hive so it is easier to kill terran's first force with muta/ling. However that delays hive by a lot and also ultras and ultra upgrade but could potentially pay off in the long run. Another thing we're unsure about is when the best time to upgrade is, and wether to only upgrade caraspace or melee and caraspace. In replays I've seen zergs usually start upgrading caraspace when spire is still morphing and then add another evo after hive is done. I guess that makes the most sense since getting hive at the earliest time possible should be the priority, and 4-0 ultras compared to 4-1 ultras are virtually the same (i think?).
If everything goes as planned, this is what the game should be like:
Z: 3 hatch muta, T: fast cc
Z: harass with muta, expos to 3rd gas, T: prepares against harass, builds factory
Z: builds lings and drones, queens nest, upgrade, maybe lay down a hydra den for deception, T: comes out with 2 and a half to 3 groups of marines in attempt to kill expo.
This is the most important period of the game imo, zerg's muta/ling has to hold or else late game becomes very very hard.
Z: hive done, upgrade crackling, ultra, T: more marines, vessels, tanks.
At this point zerg should be able to kill terran's army and maintain map control, and if zerg does, expo to 4th gas and potentially more depending on advantage.
Z: more ultra/ling/scourge, stop terran's expo attempt, defiler, if terran moves everything out, backstab, etc.
So this should be the general outline of the game if everything goes as planned. For the muta/ling vs mm battle it is important to attack from a good position and flank well. Same goes for ultras later on. I would like to hear thoughts on queen/no queen, upgrade timing, ultra caraspace first/speed first, and muta upgrade/no upgrade.
Here are two games where this general build is used:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8054_Casy_vs_GGPlay/vod
http://www.ygosu.com/?m=replay&idx=31089
In both games zerg's first 3rd gas expo was killed but both ended up winning, such is the awesomeness of this build.
also don't post stupid comments please.
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I'm not a gosu, but by giving up lurkers and trying fast hive, aren't you opening yourself a lot to a timing attack after T has enough infantry/turrets to defend his base against harass/backstab? Also, he will most likely skip tank and go quick vessels in response to no lurk/++muta, which will make it really hard to take him in the field with muta ling, meaning you will almost certainly lose an expo even if you can hold natural.
I know you mention it,
Z: builds lings and drones, queens nest, upgrade, maybe lay down a hydra den for deception, T: comes out with 2 and a half to 3 groups of marines in attempt to kill expo.
This is the most important period of the game imo, zerg's muta/ling has to hold or else late game becomes very very hard.
but T wont just have infantry by this time, but probably also irrad if he knows what hes doing, and muta-ling just wont be able to stop him unless you hit a super flank or something. Timed attacks are already a problem for fast hive builds, let alone a fast hive build no lurker.
For upgrade timings, if you are planning what is basically an ultra rush I would dual evo @ lair, and definitely, definitely get ultra carapace first. 4-0 ultras are not the same as 4-1, because not only does + 1 melee hugely upgrade your cracklings, thanks to their attack speed, it means ultras take marines down in 2 hits regardless of armor upgrades (unless he's at 3, but he won't be). Its just 100 gas and easily worth it.
IMO don't bother with queens. You might as well spend an extra 200 gas on 2 lurkers for much better effect at that point, the whole point of this build is fast hive tech, why would you slow yourself down by at least 200 gas just to get one ensnare off? Its not going to help you that much with mutaling anyway.
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your timing is wrong, i don't want to be mean but don't post if you don't know exactly what i'm talking about
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Are you saying you're intending to try this build for both the team melee AND the 1v1s?
If you're thinking that the Terran will be moving out before irradiate at the time when you'd have just gotten maybe 12 mutas and 24 lings or whatever, then I can see ensnare being of use; however any later even by 30 seconds and I would say it's not worth it and the fast hive is better; you need the ultras with their damage soaking abilities asap before the +3 weapon.
My personal experience would suggest that +1 weapon and hive faster is better than queen, and the 1/1 ought to be done when the T moves out to take down your hatch @ expo.
Could be wrong. I'd wait for some of the high level Z players to answer or try PMing them like Inc, MIdian, what have you.
I'm gonna watch that replay you posted so I can see a better idea of the exact timings.
Also how well do you know the Terran you're playing? Because this style also depends on how well you know what he does/how he plays.
After watching the Caruso replay (same as Caruso[shield]?) I think that it would be better to lay down double evo after lair while spire is morphing and get melee and carapace at once. You said the priority is hive ASAP but if you see what the zerg did in the replay he had more than enough gas to get hive at that timing (which was fastest possible) and have melee + carapace upping, he had ~350 gas left after mutas made, like 450 when hive was started; +1 weapon on time would be more valuable than "half" (100 gas) an ultralisk when you've got cracklings. Also, assuming you follow this zerg's timings as a guideline, there was actually no point after like 5 minutes at which his gas fell under 100 or his minerals much under 175, so theoretically fitting the extra evo and +1 weapon in would not be particularly difficult. Oh, and definitely ultralisk carapace first, you already move faster than a non stimmed marine and once you're fighting the speed isn't that important.
Also in that replay something that made somewhat of a difference is that for whatever reason Caruso decided to float his vessel on top of an egg that turned into scourges..so his first vessel died for no reason.
I also think this build would not work very well on peaks, as it requires you have a really nice flank against the first terran ball that moves before your ultras are out, and that would be very difficult on peaks.
p.s. fierybalrog I think what zulu meant in response to you is that 200 gas is not 2 lurkers - 2 lurkers is 50 + 200 + 200 = 450 for the den, upgrade, and 2 lurkers. It makes a huge difference in this kind of hive ultra timing build. Plus it takes time.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Zulu I need clarification on if this is the team melee build or your 1v1 build.
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I would love to see queens used, but I'm not sure if muta/ling/ensnare will be able to kill a huge ball of m&m. Have you tried this before with success? If so, then yes it's viable to use.
Are you skipping lurkers entirely? This could be a bad idea. Try getting lurker tech immediately after you make your queens. Lurkers are critical for expo defense. If you get surprise dropped, you may not be able to react fast enough with just muta/ling and lose your expo.
Other than that, the only thing you should change in your game plan is, you should get defilers before ultra. First thing after hive is done should be defiler mound, then adrenal glands, then research consume, then get 2-3 defilers. After that, lay down an ultra cavern. As for ultra upgrades, order doesn't really matter, as you need both before you engage with ultra. I would get armor first, then speed. That way, if you are forced to defend with ultra, they won't die in 2 seconds. Defilers can live without crax/ultra for a few minutes because dark swarm will stop a push, but ultra/crax CANNOT live without defilers, you will get devastated by the m&m/tank/vessel push if you get ultra before defilers.
2-3 queens for ensnare is at least 450 gas (150 for nest, 100 for ensnare upgrade, 100 for each queen), so you should wait on upgrading melee attk/carapace until after you get queens/lurkers (after you get 3rd gas). That said, 550 gas for 3 queens to constantly ensnare doesn't seem terribly expensive (nest is needed for hive anyway, so you can think of it as spending an extra 400 gas), and the queens should, with proper micro, last until vessels come out.
Queens mean you delay hive tech, so you need to be able to properly defend yourself midgame. I haven't tried queens in ZvT against good players so I'm not sure of their viability. However, I must say the thought of ensnaring m&m then running in with muta/ling/lurk excites me.
You better do plenty of massgaming with queens if you want to use them correctly.
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On December 04 2007 05:37 AlabasterFilth wrote:
I would love to see queens used, but I'm not sure if muta/ling/ensnare will be able to kill a huge ball of m&m. Have you tried this before with success? If so, then yes it's viable to use.
Are you skipping lurkers entirely? This could be a bad idea. Try getting lurker tech immediately after you make your queens. Lurkers are critical for expo defense. If you get surprise dropped, you may not be able to react fast enough with just muta/ling and lose your expo.
Other than that, the only thing you should change in your game plan is, you should get defilers before ultra. First thing after hive is done should be defiler mound, then adrenal glands, then research consume, then get 2-3 defilers. After that, lay down an ultra cavern. As for ultra upgrades, order doesn't really matter, as you need both before you engage with ultra. I would get armor first, then speed. That way, if you are forced to defend with ultra, they won't die in 2 seconds. Defilers can live without crax/ultra for a few minutes because dark swarm will stop a push, but ultra/crax CANNOT live without defilers, you will get devastated by the m&m/tank/vessel push if you get ultra before defilers.
2-3 queens for ensnare is at least 450 gas (150 for nest, 100 for ensnare upgrade, 100 for each queen), so you should wait on upgrading melee attk/carapace until after you get queens/lurkers (after you get 3rd gas). That said, 550 gas for 3 queens to constantly ensnare doesn't seem terribly expensive (nest is needed for hive anyway, so you can think of it as spending an extra 400 gas), and the queens should, with proper micro, last until vessels come out.
Queens mean you delay hive tech, so you need to be able to properly defend yourself midgame. I haven't tried queens in ZvT against good players so I'm not sure of their viability. However, I must say the thought of ensnaring m&m then running in with muta/ling/lurk excites me.
You better do plenty of massgaming with queens if you want to use them correctly.
He doesn't want defiler because it slows the ultra, he needs to beat the +3 terran weapon. If he's ultraing the defiler is less useful against a mobile SK terran force and too vulnerable, because they need to move to attack. Fast defiler is better with standard lurker because they can sit under the cloud and slow shit down. He won't be devastated without defilers because if done properly his units ups will beat the terran's ups. That's why it's a timing build. Watch the replays/VOD, it works well when done properly. There's a lot of other replay of this too that I've seen but I can't recall the specifics. Also ultra armor is more important than ultra speed because it makes an enormous difference against MM, especially if they aren't +3 yet. Also mutalisks are the counter to the drop you spoke of on an expo, because they can just catch the dropship, also there should be a couple scourges available as the zerg will make them against vessels. unless the T is really sneaky he shouldn't be able to get drops off assuming the Zerg didn't lose all his mutas already in which case he probably already lost with this build/will have to switch builds to lurker to make up for it.
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Oh and good luck beating IloveyouKH cause he is super gosu when he's in shape 
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On December 04 2007 05:39 HonkHonkBeep wrote:
He doesn't want defiler because it slows the ultra, he needs to beat the +3 terran weapon. If he's ultraing the defiler is less useful against a mobile SK terran force and too vulnerable, because they need to move to attack. Fast defiler is better with standard lurker because they can sit under the cloud and slow shit down. He won't be devastated without defilers because if done properly his units ups will beat the terran's ups. That's why it's a timing build. Watch the replays/VOD, it works well when done properly. There's a lot of other replay of this too that I've seen but I can't recall the specifics. Also ultra armor is more important than ultra speed because it makes an enormous difference against MM, especially if they aren't +3 yet. Also mutalisks are the counter to the drop you spoke of on an expo, because they can just catch the dropship, also there should be a couple scourges available as the zerg will make them against vessels. unless the T is really sneaky he shouldn't be able to get drops off assuming the Zerg didn't lose all his mutas already in which case he probably already lost with this build/will have to switch builds to lurker to make up for it.
Well most of us know that typical ultra rush timing builds work well against terran, but the question here is will it still work if you throw in queen tech before hive. Take away queens from the OP's game plan and you have a standard ultra timing build. Would 2 or 3 queens be worth it to slow down Terran while you get your 3rd expo up and get fast ups & fast hive? Dunno myself, I haven't used queens in ZvT well, ever. Anyone with any queen experience care to provide input?
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Except you talked about lurkers and defilers in your post.
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only because he said that he wanted to skip lurks entirely, so i addressed that.
My whole post is assuming that he uses queens. Whether he does or does not changes the structure and timing of the hive units, since queens will make hive will come later than it does on a usual fast-hive build.
Skipping lurkers if you go fast ultra is fine. Skipping lurkers if you go queens AND fast ultra is NOT fine. You will be short on either ultra or upgrades, even with fast upgrades, and you will die. Therefore, I suggest adding in lurkers after queens and making a strong mid-game with muta/ling/lurk/queen (probably only about 2-3 queen), and wait until after you have made some queen/lurk before starting lvl 2 upgrades & hive.
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On December 04 2007 05:30 Chill wrote:
Zulu I need clarification on if this is the team melee build or your 1v1 build.
both I believe, the format is
Game 1:1v1 BO1 | Tau_Cross
Game 2:Team Melee BO1 | Gaia
Game 3:2v2 BO1 | Hunters
Game 4:Team Melee BO1 | Python
Game 5:ACE 1v1 BO1 | Peaks of Baekdu
I got a good draw so my team get to pick our person last, but it really doesn't matter cuz both 1v1 players have to play and there's two 1v1s -_-. Right now my plan is to use a 2 hatch lurker drop build, or 2 hatch lurker straight up all in break natural build on Tau, if I play. For the first team melee we will break out the ultra rush build. 2v2 Hunters should be auto-win since it's zz vs tt. 2nd team melee break out the ultra build again, then pray for the best for game 5 if it get's to that.
btw for those who can read chinese here is the info http://bbs.plu.com.cn/read-htm-tid-286568.html
and http://bbs.plu.com.cn/read-htm-tid-286463.html for in team qualification matches. It's a big tourney in china hosted by SvS with about $6000 american dollars in prize money and every major clan in china invited. There will also be 20+ days of online stream broadcast. I will post more info when I find out.
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On December 04 2007 05:15 HonkHonkBeep wrote:
Are you saying you're intending to try this build for both the team melee AND the 1v1s?
If you're thinking that the Terran will be moving out before irradiate at the time when you'd have just gotten maybe 12 mutas and 24 lings or whatever, then I can see ensnare being of use; however any later even by 30 seconds and I would say it's not worth it and the fast hive is better; you need the ultras with their damage soaking abilities asap before the +3 weapon.
My personal experience would suggest that +1 weapon and hive faster is better than queen, and the 1/1 ought to be done when the T moves out to take down your hatch @ expo.
Could be wrong. I'd wait for some of the high level Z players to answer or try PMing them like Inc, MIdian, what have you.
I'm gonna watch that replay you posted so I can see a better idea of the exact timings.
Also how well do you know the Terran you're playing? Because this style also depends on how well you know what he does/how he plays.
After watching the Caruso replay (same as Caruso[shield]?) I think that it would be better to lay down double evo after lair while spire is morphing and get melee and carapace at once. You said the priority is hive ASAP but if you see what the zerg did in the replay he had more than enough gas to get hive at that timing (which was fastest possible) and have melee + carapace upping, he had ~350 gas left after mutas made, like 450 when hive was started; +1 weapon on time would be more valuable than "half" (100 gas) an ultralisk when you've got cracklings. Also, assuming you follow this zerg's timings as a guideline, there was actually no point after like 5 minutes at which his gas fell under 100 or his minerals much under 175, so theoretically fitting the extra evo and +1 weapon in would not be particularly difficult. Oh, and definitely ultralisk carapace first, you already move faster than a non stimmed marine and once you're fighting the speed isn't that important.
Also in that replay something that made somewhat of a difference is that for whatever reason Caruso decided to float his vessel on top of an egg that turned into scourges..so his first vessel died for no reason.
I also think this build would not work very well on peaks, as it requires you have a really nice flank against the first terran ball that moves before your ultras are out, and that would be very difficult on peaks.
p.s. fierybalrog I think what zulu meant in response to you is that 200 gas is not 2 lurkers - 2 lurkers is 50 + 200 + 200 = 450 for the den, upgrade, and 2 lurkers. It makes a huge difference in this kind of hive ultra timing build. Plus it takes time.
In the games I've used this so far, if terran goes 1 rax CC and 4 rax, he can come out with 2 1/2 groups of mm when I have about 12 mutas, 2 1/2 groups of zerglings with +1. I haven't tested this build vs a really good terran who I know will build firebats, but vs bad ones if I flank well I can take his army down without a queen. The thing is I don't even know if the queen will have enough energy by the time terran comes out. I will 99% be facing a standard 1 rax CC build and followed by 4 rax so if I don't harass well terran will come out pretty quickly.
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Can you guys just give me advice backed up by statistical evidence and not berate me for not getting lurkers pleeeease? ggplay uses this build so I'm sure it works like its intended to.
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On December 04 2007 05:47 HonkHonkBeep wrote:Oh and good luck beating IloveyouKH cause he is super gosu when he's in shape
thanks, I plan to show him the quality of foreign cheese
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Carapace Timing
Evolution chamber built simultaneously with Spire
Research carapace upon completion
Research carapace level two upon completion of carapace level one.
Will result in 2 less mutalisk (225 gas)
Will still provide *7* initial mutalisk for harassment
Control and conservatism relevant.
Importance of carapace to be completed to defend the later Terran push to destroy 2nd natural.
Mutalisk Upgrade
In most games I don't seem to recognize the benefit of a mutalisk +1 carapace. They either seem to dominate a small group of marines, or evaporate when there is a large group. The relevancy of this is in question because you clearly don't want it off the bat, further reducing your intial mutalisk. So I have a problem with when you should switch from making mutalisk to this upgrade. I am undecided pending further testing.
Queen Upgrade
Not practical
Cost of 100 gas, then must for research/energy
Potential irradiate target
Ultralisk Upgrade
Ultralisk are damage takers.
Zerglings are damage dealers.
Upgrade Ultralisk Carapace.
Potentially, since this build is gas conversative in the mid-game (depending on how many Mutalisk you make) you could make an argument for double ultralisk den into double upgrade. I have seen Ma Jae Yoon do this on occassion of crazy gas, this is just an idea, not a suggestion.
Further Recommendations
Usage of 'secret' expansion: Could buy valuable minutes to counter the Terran push
*Secret Expansion: A location closer to the Terran main base, less likely to be checked.
Placement of 3rd/4th hatchery: You definitely need an early 4th hatch to support ling production, placement?
Alternative 1: At choke/ramp to increase effectiveness of sunken wall. Third would slow down economy, fourth may be too late as dropship tech comes in; just a thought.
Alternative 2: Main base; more conversative traditional.
Alternative 3: Anticipate likely loss of an expansion, therefore take an extra for the gas.
Ling Speed Upgrade: Obviously a mutalisk/zergling army should have speed just to clarify.
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For caraspace, I agree that the only time to get it would be with spire since only at that timing will ultralisks come out with +4 right away when ultra caraspace upgrade is done, also +1 will definitely be done by the time terran decides to come out before tank/vessel to kill expo, if terran decides to come out. I have yet to try out a queen yet, I will do that right now, but my guess is ensnare and queen energy won't be ready for the first muta/ling flanking attack.
I like the idea of a secret expansion, since I'll have a lot of drones, I only need that expansion for the gas so even if it gets killed eventually, the gas I steal will still be very valuable. 4th hatchery I'm gonna place in main I think.
Another thing I'm deciding is when to place queen's nest, right after lair is done or after spire is done, I need to build the least amount of mutalisks possible for the first terran attack, conserving more gas for hive/ultra/upgrades. I'm gonna experiement with about 14-16 mutalisks total assuming I lose 2-4 during harass.
Nice outline tehAscender
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yep, that's exactly it, if a noob like by.haran can beat light with it then it must be good
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I think you should consider spending more gas on mutas if the harass proves to be succefull. However, if your micro isn't the best that most likely won't be the case.
Anyway, I ,too, am curious about the strat. I'll (try to) play around some with it and put a bo together, maybe there's some other important things to think about too. We'll see.
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EPT
