zulu, i hope you realize most terrans in team melee abuse their multitasking and go SKTerran. So you'll have less tanks to deal with, but more drops and either fast vessel or mass mnm midgame, so quickhive with skipped lurks is a bit hard. So when he scans a quickhive he'll pressure your sunkens (only protected by mutaling at that point) and will be easily able to get his third expansion.

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 05 2007 05:30 GMT

#22

that's true, but I'm hoping my opponents are dumb and will just play a normal tvz

Zanno

United States1484 Posts

December 05 2007 05:35 GMT

#23

why would you go double race in team melee? couldn't you benefit from having some probes chill out for a while and storm the hell out of them when they go SK? maybe open with muta harass into a goon->templar build?

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 05 2007 05:50 GMT

#24

the rules say it must be same race

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 05 2007 11:29 GMT

#25

ok the match is tommorow, I will use http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=1&topic_id=39255 <- this build vs iloveyoukh and the ultra build for team melee and another 1v1 if they can't figure it out

ZerG~LegenD

Sweden1179 Posts

December 05 2007 12:32 GMT

#26

There's a mutaless version of the utrarush too, choosen[light] uses it alot. You go directly to ults from 2 gas and then start the expading.
There's a thread on gg when he explains it and there's a few reps too. Can't find it though, they've got a silly search function. Anyway, the strat should be alot easier to pull off and it differs alot from the norm so it might catch him off-gaurd.

I use it occasionally, mostly when I'm bored with common zvt style. I'll do it approximately like this:
3 hatch opening
gas ~18
Second gas when lair starts or slightly after
Dual evo when lair is halfway done
qnest and hive asap, get a spire for the ability to make scourges and fake tech.
Get crack, 2/2 and ult den asap, carpace before speed.

You'll need a shitload of lings and possibly even sunkens during midgame.

Anyway, the build is much better described in that thread I was talking about, maybe someone else know which one I'm talking about?

RaGe

Belgium9947 Posts

December 05 2007 13:01 GMT

#27

On December 05 2007 20:29 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ok the match is tommorow, I will use http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=1&topic_id=39255 <- this build vs iloveyoukh and the ultra build for team melee and another 1v1 if they can't figure it out

whatever you do, dont use the ultra build for Tau Cross. the map landscape may seem fit for it, but he'll get his third gas so easily and fighting vs a superior player with 2fact 2port isnt.. nice.
for team melee, definately use Skype, or some other voice over IP program. communication is so crucial. Since your ultra build relies really heavily on the muta harass, i suggest you let the person with the best harass handle micro, the other one macro. If you're about equal in mutamicro skill, get the most experienced player on macro. Always communicate what the opponent is doing, what you need more, so he can macro appropriately. I suggest you train your team melee vs some of the more decent teams around.

these are things you probably already know, but that are kind of important in team melee, so im saying them just in case~

ShaLLoW[baY]

Canada12499 Posts

December 06 2007 00:59 GMT

#28

offtopic a bit, but i'd laugh if iloveyoukh had one of his friends read TL and tell him what builds zulu is going to use :p

RaGe

Belgium9947 Posts

December 06 2007 11:46 GMT

#29

when are you guys playing?

edit: oops caps

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 06 2007 12:28 GMT

#30

in like 10 minutes, i'll post the reps after

i did some more experimenting and I found out that queen is useful, ensnare is really powerful and quick to research and doesn't cost 150 energy as i previously thought, that's broodlings, so we're gonna get 3 queens

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 06 2007 12:34 GMT

#31

thanks for the sk tip, we tried the build vs sk and it works well since terran is more likely to come out before vessel because of marine count, 10 mutas, 2 groups of lings + ensnare rapes 2 groups of +1 marines

yubee

United States3826 Posts

December 06 2007 12:57 GMT

#32

good luck zulu!!

Liquid`Drone

Norway28673 Posts

December 06 2007 15:08 GMT

#33

i think queen is necessary for your build to work out
i also think you depend on terran not making enough bats for muta/ling to work out..

ive used builds like this quite a bit tho (in fact I normally skip either muta or lurker completely) and it can be real good. when going mutaling though, I really prefer stabbing over trying to confront his group of units when he does move out (especially if you pull of an ensnare on his main group. )
it's just really dependant on how both of you micro, and on your ensnare(s) catching a sufficient amount of units. also, if you do stop his attack and you manage to jump to 4/2 ultra without having lost expansions, you win the game. there's just one crucial moment where you need to make a correct decision and micro better than the terran regarding whether to stab or attack his force. (for example, if you see him group his units 30 seconds before he goes to attack, never stab, because this means he waited for reinforcements to fill bunkers before going)

it's just incredibly incredibly key that you do not attack at a bad moment. his units need to be either somewhat spread out or almost completely covered with ensnare, and firebats need to be in vulnerable positions or too few in number. and honestly, the game tends to be decided in a matter of 2-3 seconds, if not less.

and i honestly like building 1 evo while lair morphs, before spire (the one that upgrades carepace) cause it's just so key. you then want hive to finish pretty much when +2 carepace does. possibly earlier, but never later.

this style of play is also like, the most physically demanding style, and way way harder than opening muta then lurker or opening lurker then whatever. you gotta be able to change hotkeys often cause you need both constant production of units and 5 control groups of units. i normally play adequately with 150-180 apm but every game ive played lurker-free mutaling with queen and upgraded ultra, without sucking, ive been at 200.

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 06 2007 15:19 GMT

#34

thanks, that's pretty much exactly how i view it, the muta/ling attack is the most important moment of the game by far, queen + ensnare means less mutas but the potential of ensnare is so powerful that I think it's worth having 4 less mutas for 3 queens. And if you get 4/2 ultras with 3rd gas alive you'll have a huge advantage because there's no army terran can have at that point that can kill yours, and later add defiler that army is pretty much unstoppable. We will upgrade caraspace earlier, thank you eri, the queen of queens.

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

December 06 2007 15:37 GMT

#35

where are the reps?!

good to see that muta/ling/ensnare beats m&m with right upgrades. Do you upgrade muta attk/carapace at all?

I think I speak for zergs everywhere when I say we need to see some queen ownage right away.

thedeadhaji

39489 Posts

December 06 2007 15:45 GMT

#36

I think he's playing atm

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 06 2007 15:52 GMT

#37

haven't played yet, they're dodging and we have to play f91+fengzi first, which instead of 5 games will be decided by 1 1v1 since they asked for it, my partner is playing vs f91 right now, iloveyoukh says he's tired (aka dodge) and wants to sleep so it'll probably be played tommorow

zulu_nation8

China26351 Posts

December 06 2007 15:56 GMT

#38

ok my partner lost and no one including the ob saved the rep, sorry