This is a terrible embarrassment for our community. An intense conversation in which many people were profoundly ignorant but still within the realm of tolerable evolved into childish spewing of hateful language for the sake of showing how manly teenagers can be on the internet. I think tl.net needs to clarify its position on inflammatory hate speech, especially when a precedent has been set as far as banning people for inappropriate and disgusting posts.
I think it's important to be consistent, not just banning people for some disgusting things while chuckling in response to others. When a member of the staff repeatedly uses the N word and claims that it might be legitimate to "hate all black girls" because they have "loud, shreeky voices", participating in the same bullshit macho racist crap as the wayward children, there's a problem that needs to be addressed.
Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated. Please, someone clarify tl.net's position on this and please, start enforcing it.
Absolutely not. First of all, some racism is contextual, but there are also some things that, whether you understand it or not, are just about always racist. Unless you're using the term in reference to it as a word or for some other academic purpose, the N word is just not something that you should say, even on an anonymous forum. Although it's casual and silly to you, the casual use of that word results in a great deal of harm for an entire population of people. Whether or not you realize it, many people who read these forums look up to the people who post here, especially children, and they may not be able to tell the difference between your ultra-sophisticated humor and casual familiarity with the N word (I'm not sure I can distinguish myself). The casual use of the N word and the casual conversation of black people as an other can and will make people think of them that way, whether the apparent racists on tl.net are "just pretending" or whatever. It's absolutely inexcusable, no matter how frivolous of a person you are and no matter how much you try to confuse arguments with vague bullshit about context and deny absolutely ubiquitous agreement by an entire planet of civilized adults.
the guy has a point and its a complex issue that shouldn't be dismissed so off-handedly and especially not by attacking him or spouting off some random cliched one liner, steve
i really tried to stay away from that thread but theres so much ignorance and close-mindedness that i just had to say something despite completely regretting it now.
the problem is that the mods should not have a political position, it's not their job to be activists or have an agenda about race.
however, i would appreciate stricter enforcement of very clear, deliberate racism (not just ignorance or misunderstanding) or racist trolling attempts.
On April 12 2007 16:30 bine wrote: Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated.
What you wrote there is racist itself. For someone ranting about the immaturity of teens trying to sound macho, you would do well to follow your own advice.
I think we have to ask ourselves what do we lose from disallowing overt racism? Are anyone's "omg what a NIGGA" jokes funny? What positive reason do we have to keep such comments here when they effectively make our site inaccessible to to black people and, in the end, most educated adults?
Not comforting open racism is not a political act. It's been ubiquitously accepted by literally EVERYONE at all informed about the issue. There has never been a single conference or debate that I've ever heard of since the 1960's has concluded that racism is a completely subjective, wishy-washy issue that can be avoided by making it seem like being neutral on the matter is anything other than regarding racism as reprehensible.
On April 12 2007 16:30 bine wrote: Just because a lot of young white men think it's funny doesn't mean that racism and vulgar prejudice should be tolerated.
What you wrote there is racist itself. For someone ranting about the immaturity of teens trying to sound macho, you would do well to follow your own advice.
First of all, it's virtually impossible to be racist against a white person, at least in contemporary America. It just doesn't make any sense. First of all, I am a young white man. Second of all, if the people I'm speaking about WEREN'T white, I would not be able to chastise them for saying the N word.
I'm not ranting and I'm certainly not interested in being macho. Again, simply trying to distract and confuse the issue by pretending like me saying "white" is racist. My point was and is that young white men giving themselves permission to be racist in spite of widespread condemnation of such actions is slimy and gross.
its far from impossible to be racist against a white person ive been laughed at taunted mocked threatened for being white. so that's just flat out wrong
Why wouldn't you be able to chastise anyone but a white person for saying nigger?
It's the internet. People are going to either be who they really are, no holes barred because they have nothing to lose, or act like jackasses.
I have no patience to go read through that entire thread because there are racists, inherently ignorant, but then the other side for a large portion of the people are just as annoying. Welcome to the internet, welcome to human beings. I'm going to assume most of the people there didn't have the intention to come off as full out racists, which i consider to be the most important thing. Again, only because this is the internet where anything goes.
People might have been mean to you because you are white, but it's really difficult to call it "racism." Racism usually implies a sense of one race being dominant over another, which implies a sense of racial superiority. Black people treating you badly because you are white is what's called "reverse racism," a reaction against pervasive racism that, though extremely negative and unjustified, is largely defensive. It's possible for people to mistreat white people on the basis of racial prejudice, but it isn't "racism" and, though unfortunate, isn't widespread enough to justify altering our feelings about pervasive racism.
You're right, it's the internet. But it's the moderated internet. If we were to set our standards based on internet norms, unlabeled hardcore porn, incessant, mindless flaming and trolling, giant photos of people pooping all over each other and fisting and other gag images would be everywhere. Just because people are comfortable being racist on the internet doesn't mean that they aren't doing something wrong. Also, I don't understand why the most important thing is making sure people aren't "full out racists." Even someone with a decent understanding of black people, who doesn't consciously think less of them, does them a disservice by casually mocking them or using racist language, because they basically enable racist perceptions and practices and make it more difficult to deal with actual racists. If it's the internet, and many people are casually throwing around the N word, does it really make a difference who's a "full out racist" and who isn't?
On April 12 2007 17:28 Gene wrote: its far from impossible to be racist against a white person ive been laughed at taunted mocked threatened for being white. so that's just flat out wrong
um it just sounds like some people made fun of you dude, which can happen to anyone for any reason, i really really doubt you've experienced true racism and prejudice in the united states as a white person
i understand your concern of the use of nigger, but the hell you cant be racist against white people. what do you call some black dudes fucking with you for no other reason cuz your a 'white boy'? thats not racism? try walking into the ghetto of newark or camden and tell me you wont get fucked with cuz ur white. people will straight come to your face and say it to you. theres been plenty of incidents of kids gettin jumped at colleges in newark simply for being white and in the wrong neighborhood.
when you're walking down the street and get threatened by a group of black guys, that's a step passed being made fun of. trying to say its "defensive" is the most ludicrous double standard. but that wasnt so much the point.
and it also wasnt my point, or what i said, that you need to be "full out racist." my point was (and im still guessing) that they didnt INTEND to be racists. You're going to say "but the evidence is in the NIGGER ing" no its not. Most of the people on this website are 13-19. Saying nigger a few times isnt meant to be racist. What i was trying to gloss over was my opinion that you're blowing something out of proportion.
For a little clarification, im completely opposed to racism from anyone towards anyone, but like ive said before, when shit is taken out of context and out of proportion, its not racism. Guess i'll read that thread now.
Edit: And you have quite a strange view of racism. Trying to work slavery into it is a farce so long as you're not talking about some redneck hick from the south. But if you want me to post that in that thread to have that debate all over again i will, i dont want to derail your thread
The problem is, there is no such thing as "white people".
I'm white, I'm also Serbian. You think I didn't feel the backlash when I was in highschool during the Kosovo bombing campaigns? Having to put up with racist shit talking that was totally acceptable just because Serbs had apparently become the new kicking bags of the US. They even started making the bad guys in action movies Serbian, like they did with Russians during the cold war.
Fucking stupid shit.
So yes, you can feel racism as a white person, because there is no such thing as white. Everyone who is caucasian in appearance is something else entirely ethnically.
Well, I certainly didn't mean to distract from the larger issue with my impossibly minor remark about the fact that white people technically can't have racism perpetrated against them, and Gene, as is evident in my remarks on the subject, I don't mean to lesson anything that happened to you. It was both defensive and totally unacceptable and wrong. Just because it isn't really racism doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Mana, I guess when we say "white", at least in America, we mean ethnically ambiguous people of white skin. I don't really have a distinct ethnicity. Again, I think that white people can suffer from prejudice, and that bad things happen to people with light skin, often because they have light skin. But it's not racism because it isn't being perpetrated from the perspective of a race that claims to be dominant. Think of it this way: a scared, pissed off cat scratches a benign human who doesn't mean them any harm because they've been abused by humans all their life vs. a giant lion attacking a human that it doesn't even want to eat just because it can and is higher on the food chain. Both are counterproductive, violent, unnecessary and wrong, but maybe one is slightly more understandable than another one. Again, I'm not excusing or downplaying anything that's happened to you guys personally. But it's just not the same.
Maybe where you are people recognize you visibly as Serbian, but at least everywhere that I've lived, even ethnically "clear" light-skinned people don't have to deal with their ethnicity every day unless they want to, because no one can tell who they are. Black people have to think about and deal with the fact that they are black every second of every day. I'm gay and an atheist, and if I wore that on a t-shirt I'd probably field some shit too. But I don't have to if I don't want to, I can blend in. Black people can't blend in, they have to be talked down to and harassed constantly. They have to have trouble getting apartments, getting jobs, dealing with overt and covert racism constantly. As much as I sympathize with anyone who gets picked on, especially unjustly, it just isn't the same
Being Asian, I can appreciate that there is a bit of racism against me, but I would never come close to placing it on the same level as the institutionalized racism that our society thinks has been cured. A guy with a name John Chang has about the same chances at a job as John Smith, and both have a a much easier time getting a job than La'Nyia Williams or something like that.
On April 12 2007 19:40 bine wrote: Well, I certainly didn't mean to distract from the larger issue with my impossibly minor remark about the fact that white people technically can't have racism perpetrated against them, and Gene, as is evident in my remarks on the subject, I don't mean to lesson anything that happened to you. It was both defensive and totally unacceptable and wrong. Just because it isn't really racism doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Mana, I guess when we say "white", at least in America, we mean ethnically ambiguous people of white skin. I don't really have a distinct ethnicity. Again, I think that white people can suffer from prejudice, and that bad things happen to people with light skin, often because they have light skin. But it's not racism because it isn't being perpetrated from the perspective of a race that claims to be dominant. Think of it this way: a scared, pissed off cat scratches a benign human who doesn't mean them any harm because they've been abused by humans all their life vs. a giant lion attacking a human that it doesn't even want to eat just because it can and is higher on the food chain. Both are counterproductive, violent, unnecessary and wrong, but maybe one is slightly more understandable than another one. Again, I'm not excusing or downplaying anything that's happened to you guys personally. But it's just not the same.
Maybe where you are people recognize you visibly as Serbian, but at least everywhere that I've lived, even ethnically "clear" light-skinned people don't have to deal with their ethnicity every day unless they want to, because no one can tell who they are. Black people have to think about and deal with the fact that they are black every second of every day. I'm gay and an atheist, and if I wore that on a t-shirt I'd probably field some shit too. But I don't have to if I don't want to, I can blend in. Black people can't blend in, they have to be talked down to and harassed constantly. They have to have trouble getting apartments, getting jobs, dealing with overt and covert racism constantly. As much as I sympathize with anyone who gets picked on, especially unjustly, it just isn't the same
On April 12 2007 17:02 Hot_Bid wrote: the guy has a point and its a complex issue that shouldn't be dismissed so off-handedly and especially not by attacking him or spouting off some random cliched one liner, steve
it's absolutely dismissable
stuff like this is common sense among civilized folk and anyone who doesn't fit that profile is gone. its his problem if he doesn't have that common sense, regardless of which side of the fence he's on
EPT
