EPTTL Mafia LXIX: Carol Of The Bells
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Vivax
21959 Posts
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Vivax
21959 Posts
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Vivax
21959 Posts
I don't see it as scummy, just as something useless to talk about which isn't scummy at this stage of the game. The biggest accusation you could make is that he's so serious in a setting where people are kinda joking, but that's not enough to go with in my book. It's more like he's annoyed that people are discussing policies when in past games it always led to that statement of his making the most sense. Null for me. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 09 2014 08:47 Holyflare wrote: Well no. You said people talking about lynching lurkers are "off" and he was an "easy target to look scummy" which is already a contradiction in one post and now you are saying you know what he said and it doesn't look bad and people are making mountains out of mole hills which is a contradiction with your first post. There's a great deal of backtracking in what you are saying and I don't like it. She said people talking about that can look off and that makes them an easy target to look scummy. She explicitly said that she didn't find that post scummy. I don't find it that hard to see where she's coming from, it's more like you're tryharding to make things look scummy that are at best null. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 09 2014 08:50 Damdred wrote: I don't like this post at all. Like i might like it less than frogs post Why? It's my opinion that stands against yours, with all reasons given for it. Please give your reason for finding this scummy. 3/60 | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 09 2014 08:57 Damdred wrote: I'm glad that you came back Viv, you were strangely quiet after making a very wordy post that ended up in a null. Basically my problem with this post is that you give him a scenario which isn't really true at all. Nobody had discussed policy lynching (besides the lolrng) and nobody had even brought up lurkers until his post. The whole post feels kind of off to me. Well he got to the lurker topic through the rng topic, saying it would produce content which is good against lurkers. It is a very generic post that does however fit into the context of town starting discussion and posting unseriously, so I don't want to judge it as scummy, if I were asked about lurker lynching I would reach the same conclusion. Your point that he starts talking about it spontaneously without lurker lynches being discussed still fits into the context in my opinion: One quick post before going to bed with some opinion on policy lynching, at the start of the game. So no, I won't scumread him for it. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Things I find more interesting: 27nb putting froggy into the iffy pile after saying she didn't find his post alignment indicative. This happens after suspicion piles onto her. Deffo scummy cause seems like a way of aligning her reads with the guys suspecting her in some attempt to look less scummy cause of her deviant opinion. Ummm no, In every game I have played, people always first attack the guy who talks about policy lynching and lurkers, whether doing it is bad or good. The same thing is happening this game. I don't think it is alignment indicative for froggy. I would need him to talk more to get a read. I'm just saying that there's no sense in attacking someone for something that seems "scummy" when it isn't. It seems off to everyone else, which is why people are targeting him, you get what I'm saying? Iffy: Froggy Kita (I expected more than just hey) Fecal Number 2: On December 09 2014 08:21 ritoky wrote: this is a remarkable example of doublespeak. you manage to actually say nothing in an entire paragraph. have you considered a career in politics? Ritoky attacks the post in discussion in a...passive way but doesn't actually try to draw conclusions from it in later posts, or take part in the discussion revolving around that post, this suggests he doesn't try to get alignment indicative information from the game. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
27ninjabunnies is posting horrendous. Please shape up. I can’t even blame people having her as only scumread because her posting is so scummy. Is playing scum 101. People who have experience playing the game would only play this scummy as town not paying attention to their own scumminess. I would still lynch her as a policy lynch. Not acceptable play. This is the sort of thing mafia writes. If something looks like scum, smells like scum, it's not most likely town cause it has game experience. There's no read progression in what happened there. And you don't touch upon the arguments used against her and interpret them on your own. Very lazy way of deciding about someone's alignment. Let me recap 27nb: I'm not brushing it off, I' trying to look at it objectively. I think what he said makes sense. A. I know what he said. I said he was talking about policy lynching and lurkers. I never specifically said what he thought about it. I don't think it's scummy. I think people are making something scummy out of nothing. Ummm no, In every game I have played, people always first attack the guy who talks about policy lynching and lurkers, whether doing it is bad or good. The same thing is happening this game. I don't think it is alignment indicative for froggy. I would need him to talk more to get a read. I'm just saying that there's no sense in attacking someone for something that seems "scummy" when it isn't. It seems off to everyone else, which is why people are targeting him, you get what I'm saying? Templar Town Damdred Town Slam semitownie Those I need to look more at: HF Vivax Kelsier Iffy: Froggy [She just said she didn't have anything alignment indicative on him, wtf is iffy about him? Nothing. It's the fact that HF and Templar are bombarding her about it. This read is purely strategic, heat built up cause of her disagreeing, and she tries to get it off by agreeing.]. Kita (I expected more than just hey) Fecal When I compare her reactions to mine: - She adapts the read based on pressure, if she found froggy iffy for something else then she didn't mention that thing in all that time, and it can't be the argument she found not alignment-indicative. Instead she claims to have found him iffy but felt like defending him which is also a scum point. - I don't change my opinion about froggy when pressured, simply cause it was really my opinion and I saw no arguments being strong enough against it. He was null from the start for that post and I wasn't going to judge him for it. On the other hand I didn't scumread bunnies until she wrote that small list where froggy ended up being iffy for no reason at all except for her trying to align her read with the attackers. Anyway I'm voting her for today. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 10 2014 00:10 Tubesock wrote: Holy Moses. I didn't think I was such a slow reader but it's been hours and I feel I will never catch up to the thread while taking notes also. I'm trying to get reads, but they are conflicting with people who I feel are pretty freaking smart sounding. Namely, Koshi and Xata. Koshi, since you are here can you tell me more about your HTS read? I feel I'm fairly null/town on her. Namely, I believe that Froggy's plynch statement isn't meaningful. Bunny latches and basically posts it's probably bad but she thinks it's ok. Then scum lists Froggy. Then several people jump on her and later Dam asks HTS about the Froggy/plynch read. HTS replies that it's null on his part but Bunnies scum listing is scummy. HTS doesn't seem to scumlist Froggy. Then a bunch more people argue (kelsierSC, Bats, Viv others). I'd like to know why I should elevate the signifigance of HTS's reads and downplay Bunny's? Also I think people should read this more closely from the OP: It appears that given bad enough RNG we could have 6 Marlows, or 6 Mass Murderers, or 0. Which makes me wonder why we had a Scrooge claim?? It makes me wonder if any claims will matter as we can have multiples...so why not counterclaim? This post looks very mafiaish at this stage of the game. Tube summarizes some stuff about the argument revolving bunnies and then HTS (which I still have to read atm), and asks another player "stuff" about it as if he couldn't judge it on his own, apparently cause it conflicts with his own reads (what are his reads???). Guessing from the post it would be that he's scumreading 27nb but not HTS, cause he's asking Koshi if he should give more priority to HTS instead of 27nb. This is the sort of post I expect from a mafia who simply divides the game into different "wagon camps" consisting of different players and then works off that instead of genuinely working off arguments and reads. When he has the information, he doesn't know what to do with it in order to start looking townie. So his best bet is to start a discussion about it with some player he deems influential, and then post some random setup related stuff. | ||
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Vivax
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Vivax
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On December 10 2014 02:12 kitaman27 wrote: No, that won't be necessary. My first read through I had LightningStrike as a townie who might be an easy target for mafia to jump on. Content wasn't great, but seemed to mean well. Need to take a look at the people giving him a hard time to see if their posts are justified or taking advantage of the situation. kush is actively trolling. Leaning scum based on the fact that he isn't even attempting to read, but wouldn't mind lynching him regardless of what he may flip. Does this part seem mafiaish to you? "but they are conflicting with people who I feel are pretty freaking smart sounding. Namely, Koshi and Xata." What makes it seem like he is trying to sheep town leaders as mafia, rather than trying to identify townies and listen to what they have to say? I kinda found myself thinking that Xata was making a fair amount of sense would be someone to listen to. Not so sure about koshi as he has the content but not sure about motives yet, but does that and the role count talk really seem scummy to you? I had the opposite reaction after reading the post. rsoultin seems to decide Obi would be a good vote and then goes back to find reasons why afterwords. Maybe he hadn't had a time to express himself in the thread yet, but that's the impression that I got. fecal and bat I need to spend some time looking at. Already explained why I found it scummy. And I don't know what makes you think he's trying to sheep town "leaders", you don't know if Koshi and Xata are town yet, or are not supposed to. Plus, what he's doing is not sheeping, it's trying to figure out why his 27nb scumread doesn't align with Xata and Koshi. Anyway, that's not my main point. My main point is his strange focus on "who is scumreading whom" rather than "why is this person supposed to be scum". In his entrance post he implicitly says he's scumreading bunnies but not HTS, he doesn't talk about why he scumreads bunnies or why bunnies is a good lynch. He asks two people that seem to be doing the talk seemingly randomly about their reasons for not scumreading bunnies over HTW. He doesn't do that cause he suspects these two people, but cause he thinks they're looking good, as he himself states I'm trying to get reads, but they are conflicting with people who I feel are pretty freaking smart sounding. Yet this opinion of his isn't substantiated by what these people wrote. In fact we don't know why he gives them such high value when their opinion conflict with his. Why didn't he list HF there, or me? If bunnies is his main scumread like mine and HF's, why does he value the conflicting opinions more. So I think he just picked out two guys he thought to be influential and started talking to them about stuff to look like he's contributing, and added the setup talk on top, to contribute some more. Adding the introduction "Oh wow I'm reading so much". As said, for a scum with the game solved they will rather focus on the different wagons and the people on it and their reasons rather than real reasons for people being read one way or another, they will try to position themselves "politically" and this is what it looks like to me. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 10 2014 05:29 Damdred wrote: As for ritoky (which I assume is what HF asked me about) There are a few weird things in his filter that bug me. He makes mention of several scummy things in his filter but never really pushes any of it or tries to push the thread when hes in it. The sole exception to this is his yelling at LS for using one of the ways hes learned to read people early. And scum reading him for it, this does not make sense of ritoky and feels like he just found an easy target to rest on instead of pushing on other higher profile people. Its a difficult read but I just don't quite see ritoky as town in his filter. Yup, called out the same thing in relation to what he said about froggynoddys post. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 10 2014 08:31 27ninjabunnies wrote: Vivax- after reading through his filter seems really town to me. Actually probably one of my top towns at the moment. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/472628-tl-mafia-lxix-carol-of-the-bells?page=40#791 This post explain why. I think I've explained why I put Froggy as iffy, vivax, at that time. What do you think? Also, In that post you mention you don't like Koshi, or more so he's freaking you out. Can you go a little bit more into Koshi, and what kind of read you've made on him since that post? To be honest I've been fairly lazy so far. I've focused on single things that popped out at me like tube's post and the situation with you at the start of the game. I'll be making some coffee now and work on reading the whole game for real. I'm guessing there's 5 scum and 1 SK so I hope I can deliver all guesses until the end of the day. I found that part from Koshi scummy cause as I said in the post it's a thing mafia likes to write especially about teammates. They don't want to not scumread them but also not push them so they agree with the pushers but put in some sort of caveat that allows them to do something else. And I'm generally an enemy of too scummy to be scum arguments, you either find something scummy or you don't. What you can call such things are posts that can be viewed as falsely scummy, but too scummy to be scum implies you find it scummy. Brb with coffee and motivation. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
He says it's interesting information but doesn't apply it to his reasoning anywhere, it's supposed to concern 27nb and Damdred since they gave Alakaslam a read. What he's doing about fecalfeast I don't know. Overall a guy I find difficult (read:tedious) to read and all over the place, spamming townreads on a whim in the later stages of his filter. Could lynch him cause he smells of bullcrap occasionally, like the fecalfeast read with a completely different focus afterwards and the fact he calls the Alakaslam townreads informative without explaining how. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 10 2014 10:55 rsoultin wrote: I think I phrased it as "new and learning" but I agree. Nitpicking him is pointless at this stage. So is nitpicking tube. Let the guy get his sea legs a little first before you start scumreading him like he actually knows how to play scum @Vivax. Speaking of Vivo la Vida Loca...you're definitely coming across as lazy in those reads. Still. Same opinion on 27NB, by the way, or has anything changed? Lazy in overall lookout at the game maybe, as in I didn't yet analyse everyone thoroughly. And lazy by my standards, it will improve as more information becomes available. It's just tiring to wade through all the shit some people write, only to realize it's either gibberish, uninteresting or straight offtopic. I'm here to play mafia and not to read dumb posts, so I try to make mine high quality, which I feel I've been doing and not been lazy with, so I don't really see where you're coming from by saying I'm coming across as lazy when multiple people have expressed quite the opposite. I can buy 27nb's explanation of her meaning iffy as null, so I'm looking in different places. As said by me but unmentioned by you, I wrote my train of thought regarding Kelsier which I would like you to address. Calling what I did regarding tube nitpicking is quite the stretch given that I haven't been replying to his posts in such a way but rather talked to kita about him and mostly simply explained what I didn't like about his posts. Overall I find you to be weirdly hostile in your posting and depiction of my play. Is there a particular reason? | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 09 2014 20:42 Xatalos wrote: First things first, this really disturbed me: Something like this is really dangerous to say because it might actually out the blue role in the worst case. And the fast backtrack indicates that there wasn't any real thought behind this "plan". However, it appears that it was just a reaction test: It actually seems like KSC could believe what he's saying here. The way he goes after Fecalfeast after executing his "master plan" feels genuine enough. So I'd tentatively put KSC in the town camp. I sure hope that Mafia didn't somehow find the Scrooge because of this though. This looks so fake given that I have the exactly opposite feeling to the bolded. First, it's completely pointless to discuss that plan, and saying it was a reaction test is completely pulled out of Xata's bum cause it wasn't, hence, it's most likely some invented reason to justify a town read on Kelsier. Kelsier said he misread something, and THEN used it to form a read on FF, which Second: he afterwards didn't push (instead he discusses a multitude of other things and here and there he asks FF a question of which I don't see the results). Just cause of this Xata belongs into my naughty list. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On December 10 2014 12:01 rsoultin wrote: Yesterday you read fine, though roundabout. More words =/= better. 27NB read/recap lolworthy. "Let me compare her to me." Though other people were comparing the two of you, unnecessary. Given your initial reason for pursuing 27NB, it's a good sign you reevaluated, however. (That was the main purpose behind my post, seeing where you stood now.) BS on tube. You've written more than him on anyone for him asking other people he think may be town why they think differently than him. Kelsier read is a bunch of repeating yourself about his issue with Alakaslam being townread and a cameo of FF. Not well-developed for such a long post. And as for how I post...it's only odd if you haven't read my other posts. You're not special, vivo. It's not the more words, it's the fact I try to play this game like a machine. Got no place for jokes, only for reads and reasons, which is what every good townie should be doing in a game with posting restriction. I think you don't understand what nitpicking means. In the context of this game, it means for example that you write a case, and I only address a little part of it and not the whole picture. But the whole picture of that post by tube is what bothered me, and I explained what I didn't like about the single parts. Overall it gave me the feeling of a scum entrance. However my opinion of tube so far changed into rather townie cause of what he wrote here: I'm pretty intimidated by a few of the players. They just seem like all they have to do is put up a big post (Templur) and bam I feel they are super towny. Which in my opinion shows a townie mindset, cause he openly reflects about how a read of his forms when he sees something, and questions it at the same time. Shows that he's really thinking about the game so I'm putting him into the townpile for now. Kelsier's read is more than that since he claims that he can gain information from townreads on Kaslam but doesn't actually provide it, or say what it is. His pursuit of Fecalfeast is too sporadic for an early scumread. Why are you downplaying this so hard. | ||
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Vivax
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Vivax
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So he's pretty much scummy for apparently inventing reasons to townread him. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
Xata is DEFINITELY scum. | ||
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Vivax
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On December 10 2014 12:31 rsoultin wrote: @Viva Whether you believe KSC or not, Xata did not pull the "reaction test" thing out of his ass. I personally don't approve of this move and might even call it scummy, given a dumb scrooge might have fallen for it, but whatevs. Says nothing about Xata. If you want a read on someone, ask. @Damdred...seems more lazy than scummy to me, the Templar post. Unless you're telling me he isn't usually fluffy (which considering his silly Santa stories, you'd think that would have raised a red flag by now with those of you who have played with him before). He asked a few good questions in the text wall. Yea gimme a read on Xata. He did pull it out of his ass cause it wasn't a reaction test. A reaction test is something you purposefully do to fish a reaction. What Kelsier did was an attempt at taking advantage of the setup, then he realized it failed, then he looked at FF and called him scum for not looking more thoroughly at what he did there, meta-based. | ||
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I knew it was to happen eventually, but I figured Ritoky would be the first to do it!
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