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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I have played games with sqrtofneg1, 27ninjabunnies, Epishade, Alakaslam, and Palmar; that ordering also probably reflects how familiar I am with them as players. At this moment I haven't read the thread- I will get on that shortly and probably put some initial thoughts into a post. I'll be around a fair amount tomorrow too, if you want me to answer some specific question or talk about something in particular, just let me know. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Slam’s posting is usually fun, but occasionally frustrating since it’s not always clear what he means, so it can be hard to draw a read from that. I don’t think it is inherently bad On Jabberwockzerg I felt jabber’s first post was a bit odd because he copied his post from the prior game (where he was scum) and I feel like he might have a different opening if he was town. I also think bunnies may be onto something, but I’m not sure if her post (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=6#106) realizes the more damning point or not (it’s sorta weirdly written) so I’ll write it just in case. To me, what is suspicious about jabber’s post is that he suggested a player was mafia last game, but he knew that the player was not mafia last game. In other words, he offered a scenario as a counterpoint that he knew to be false. It’d be fine if he said he was just raising the point as a possibility, but his answer (that he didn’t know it was public information) doesn’t look so hot. I’m not convinced on him yet, but I want to pursue this. @Jabberwockzerg: 27ninjabunnies has raised a point regarding your play that she argues shows you are mafia. You also posted that she was doing a lot of finger pointing on day one. Do you think her point on you is good? Do you feel that her raising that point makes her more likely to be town or mafia? @fuba and @HaruRH: You joined the vote on jabberwockzerg. I understand that you agree with bunnies’ point on him – what do you think of jabberwockzerg’s responses after bunnies’ vote? Do they feel more town or scum to you? aside @HaruRH: This is not game-oriented, but I really like the “God Knows” song from Haruhi and love to sing it in karaoke :D | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(1) There's no reason for him to raise a false scenario So, both town and mafia can raise scenarios they know to be false. Of course, mafia will - they won't admit they are scum. But, town does do this as well at times. - Sometimes this is to make plays Example: town VT fakeclaims a role to get shot/roleblocks - Sometimes, this is to argue for a position even if the player was scum. Example: town player argues “If I flip town, do ABC; if I flip mafia, do XYZ”). The player knows the second scenario will not happen, but can argue that even if they were scum, a certain play is best for town. Compared with these, I don’t see any redeeming reason for jabberwock’s pushing a point he knows to be incorrect. (2) Jabberwock's Response is Scummy/Weird On May 27 2014 11:24 jabberwockzerg wrote: Didn't realize that was public information My bad I'd expect a town player to say things like they forgot, or yeah I guess that point is invalid, etc. To me, jabberwock's post is essentially saying he didn’t know we would be able to catch him. I guess I don’t find jabberwock’s later post (confused as to the case) to be alignment indicative... I feel like the original posts didn’t state the case that clearly (I think that’s why fuba/me/palmar reposted it). @jabberwock: You’re the strongest wagon at this moment, but I understand some people are hesitating on your lynch. I feel you are a pretty good lynch right now, but I’m open to hearing more from you. Given the discussion around your play, is there anyone you feel has been playing scummy? If you were going to pick someone to vote for, who would that be and why? More in a little bit | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I can understand you having some hesitation on the initial jabberwockzerg points, though I think it's not a bad argument. What do you think of jabberwock's followup post(s)? For fuba, I understand that you didn't like that he voted for jabber without an explanation. I agree that we needed to press him for a reason, but do you feel like him voting without an explanation was scummy? I take it you do from this post (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=12#224), but I'd have to disagree, I feel that players give reads/votes without explanation as either town or scum. Could you explain your thoughts on this a little more and if your feelings on fuba come from anywhere else? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I meant to ask you yesterday, but forgot. I know we are sort of on other topics now, but could you answer your own early question - What is your take on Alakaslam's posting? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Lemme see if I can find some questions for you, you should do the same | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
This is just something I think is kinda weird as an observation, but not scum-indicative. It’s strange to me that your early posts seemed to push against using the prior game for information. However, you end up joining a case that is more or less based on the prior game (on jabberwockzerg). Examples: + Show Spoiler + On May 27 2014 09:37 27ninjabunnies wrote: Lets not talk about previous game roles. On May 27 2014 09:44 27ninjabunnies wrote: I just don't want previous game to carry over to this game I suppose. Because how a person was playing the previous game, might be the same as this game, which could indicate that they are a role or the same role and I don't want to make it easy on mafia  On May 27 2014 10:58 27ninjabunnies wrote: I mean, basically you can discuss whatever. Just dont make your entire filter based off of not game things. Hence me trying to get yall back on track On May 27 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote: Was he town-halling? I didn't read the birds and the bees qt from last game. Any comments? I'll look for more in a bit. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
1) Thoughts on mderg (though I end up talking about jabberwock) I think mderg's point is fair - I basically agree that jabberwock's post makes no sense from town or scum. I know that I am not a scumteam with jabberwock, so I know that his post seems senseless from scum... even if he is scum, even if he thinks that the last game was private, he would know that I am town and that I can reveal chrom was not mafia last game. This is why I have been asking people about jabberwock's followup posts - jabberwock's initial post looks a lot more like a mistake to me than a scumslip. But, I feel like his followup posts are troubling and those are certainly making me feel better about the wagon on him. 2) Thoughts on mderg defense of jabberwock I don't have strong feelings on this. The case isn't ironclad because I feel like almost all of it can be explained by poor play. On the other hand, it'd be tough to make any case on d1 that can't be explained by just poor play :D 3) Thoughts on mderg questioning wagon This is good and I want to see more of it. Even if you feel the case on jabberwock is great and he's the likely lynch, we should be using this time to get more information. We have more info d2 if we make sure to see how everyone respond to the jabberwock wagons, the points from players on it, etc. As an aside, not a fan of this comment for similar reasons. On May 27 2014 21:28 Palmar wrote: Okay I'll be a good sheep. ##vote jabberwockzerg To put in clear terms what the problem I, and clearly others, have is: The point isn't that you screwed it up. The point is that you brought up an argument that you already know is invalid. I don't see any motivation for someone who is town to do that. Unless you can explain why as town it makes sense for you to throw something you know will not help solve the issue at hand into the mix, we're going to have to lynch you. I'm fine with not doing anything else today. This is better than most day 1 lynch opportunities we get. @jabberwockzerg: if you're somehow town, now is your time to step up. I dislike the bolded part for the reasons above, but to be fair it isn't awful in in context (Palmar encourages jabber to act) more in a sec I have to step away a few minutes | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
- Thoughts on bunnies' response to mderg @27ninjabunnies: Not a huge fan of your posts responding to mderg. On May 28 2014 03:04 27ninjabunnies wrote: (cut) You are right. Unless amiko is with him, his play would be called out. However, what was I supposed to do, let it slide and hope that amiko comments on it? That's not something I would do. I think this doesn’t address the more important point – whether the comment from jabberwock indicates his alignment. Mderg is saying that there’s a fair chance jabberwock’s comment would get caught, so mafia-jabberwock wouldn’t make the comment. MDerg isn’t raising this in suspicion of you – it’s pretty immaterial whether you commented on it or not. The point he’s raising (which I think is fine, see prior post) is that he feels it is more likely to be a misplay or misstatement, rather than a scumslip. I think your subsequent posts do not respond to that point, so I don’t really like your responses. I guess I’ll mention I dislike a few of your other posts- On May 28 2014 01:54 27ninjabunnies wrote: I mean, i think my case is pretty solid. And there are a lot of people who agree (en again not everyone is here and commenting). I'm quite nervous this might be a mislynch. This is sort of doubletalk. To be clear, I am not really considering as a lynch possibility, however I figured this was a good time to note that post. Thoughts on Fuba's uncertainty and defense of uncertainty on jabber? I like fuba so far. I always feel a little warm about someone who posts something I was writing just before I post it, and fuba did that earlier so that gave me initially good feelings on him. Uncertainty makes sense. I think people can feel jabber is scum or town, so uncertainty feels reasonable. I don’t find his vote without explanation to be that meaningful. I feel like this is all stuff that we can reassess if jabber is lynched, but otherwise we need to get fuba to talk about some other points as well. ------------------------- @fuba: What are your thoughts on other players’ approaches to the jabberwock case? Specifically, I’d like your thoughts on me / mderg / bunnies – comment on one or all, as you like. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 28 2014 04:58 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I would personally really like to hear more from harurh. And fuba This is your second post. I would like to hear more from you. What do you think about the argument that jabberwock's comment would not come from scum or mafia? In your first post it seems like you suspect players who are defensive of jabberwock, and you mention fuba and haru. What are your thoughts on mderg? Alakazam says that mderg's points on jabberwock were not specific (see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=13#247). Do you agree or disagree? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I don't think we've talked yet this game. You became a firebat before me :c On May 27 2014 23:15 sqrtofneg1 wrote: I don't like palmar so far. I do like fuba. Could you explain both these reads? Right now I am more interested in your read on Palmar so I'd like if you gave more explanation of that one. Also, would you please comment on jabberwock's posts after the case against him was made? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 28 2014 05:11 Chromatically wrote: I think this is scummy given that sqrt had access to this information all the time (he was in the thread when jabber "slipped"). Here was his reaction at that time: Doesn't call him scum for it at all. Even later, he only once calls him scum, but just for being thrown off his alphabet game. Now, however, when the jabber lynch has a lot of traction, he jumps on without any reasoning for changing his mind. There are plenty of additional points against jabber concerning his reaction, but that's not the justification sqrt gave. sqrt's explanation for his vote is inconsistent with how he originally reacted to jabber's post. Could you clarify - are you suggesting that (1) sqrt changed his mind from town to scum? or (2) that sqrt changed his mind from neutral to scum? Please also clarify if you feel sqrt would be a good lynch alternative to jabberwockzerg | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
another question to clarify, sorry- Are you saying it is inconsistent because he gives a justification you disagree with? Or it is inconsistent because there is no justification? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
If you want to talk about anything in particular let me know with a quick post. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
You talked a bit about your scumread on Palmar and Fuba. First for Palmar- I think it’s fair to say that Palmar’s vote on 27ninjabunnies was empty, but why do you see that as scummy? I feel like an early vote that you pretend is serious isn’t necessarily scummy… at least, I’ve seen players do that as town in a couple games (if it’s important to you I can try to find examples, but otherwise just take my word for it that town does that, too). Second, for Fuba. You townread fuba for being uncertain on jabberwockzerg. Do you also townread the other players who have indicated some hesitation on fuba (ex: mderg)? This is more of a general comment- I would like to see town have a second wagon (besides jabberwockzerg), but I’m just not sure who that should be yet. I’ll keep looking for that as I go through the thread here. Palmar seems like a possible second from comments in the thread, but I don't think I feel strongly scummy on him. I'll try to give him a deeper read and see if that changes my mind after I finish catching up. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I dunno, I think I've been decently active. I think there's a little less going on in this thread, though... I feel like attention is mostly going on the jabberwockzerg issue and we need to try to have conversation on other points as well. On that note, I actually liked this post by Palmar (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=16#319) largely because I think we need to see some activity from MZ and it made some new conversation points. I want to follow my thoughts on those a bit... @27ninjabunnies: Two things on your post here- On May 28 2014 09:04 27ninjabunnies wrote: Ooooq..... Interesting. Tbh i agree with MZ here. Sqrts play is kinda weird. I dont like it. (1) I do agree somewhat. I think sqrt's posts have been a little different this game - specifically, I feel sqrt is posting with a similar frequency to his other games, but is asking far fewer questions about the game. There are some questions, for sure, but I feel like he has been less inquisitive. What do you think is weird about sqrt's play or posts? (2) To explain a little, I don't feel like Meapak was really saying sqrt's posting style was weird. See post- On May 28 2014 08:42 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: You've thrown around a lot of suspicions this game. Instead of making a vague statement like this, interpret what it means. If you leave it vague like this, it makes it seem like you're just trying to throw dirt on him without actually having to take a stand. Instead tell us why this is a problem, maybe provide some examples if you're gonna cite his meta. I see this as saying he wants sqrt to explain his comments further, not necessarily calling out sqrt's play as strange. Or do you feel sqrt is weird because he is throwing around a lot of suspicions? To me, that seems pretty much in line with his prior play... Sorry I keep raising negative points on you as side comments, lol, but I will also mention that I think Meapak's point on sqrt (don't make vague statements) basically applies to your post as well (where you just say "Sqrts play is kinda weird. I dont like it."). | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Ehhh I want to focus on other things but I want to at least give a response to your reads. I do appreciate you posting them, even if I have some concerns with them. 1) HaruRH/Fuba vs. Mderg It seems that you townread HaruRH & fuba for defending you. From my point of view, it seems like mderg was also defending you. However, for mderg you write “Not really getting much.” Can you explain why your read on mderg is different than you read on HaruRH/fuba? 2) Reasons to defend you Also, it seems to me that if you are town, mafia may want to defend you because it may give them credibility. In other words, let’s pretend for this paragraph that you are town. If you die, you will be revealed as town. If mafia defended you, they arguably look better (because they did not push to mislynch someone who is town). I don’t really know whether the people defending you are town or mafia, but I just want to ensure that you considered this as a possibility. If you thought about this and your reads are the same, fine. If you didn’t think about this before, does it change your reads at all? 3) Where do we go? From your reads, I think your highest scum suspect is sqrtofneg1, followed by Palmar (let me know if this is incorrect). You subsequently list Palmar as your highest scumread. What made sqrt move down, or Palmar move up? Is it just because sqrt was voting on Palmar? | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On May 28 2014 11:55 Alakaslam wrote: Haven't read him but he has agree with me usually so. There is that What did I agree with you about? I don't think I've really interacted with you this game besides a quick comment on your playstyle which wasn't direct. So I am confused a little by this post. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I don't have much to question you about but here are a few quick things besides the question in my last post: (1) Curious, why did you quote sloosh in your vote post? (2) Do you have any read on slOosh for now? If you would like, you can present your read in the form of a youtube video (but I would like some text explaining why you picked that youtube video) (if that's too much pressure just text is okay) | ||
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