LR Thread Recommended Game Polls Discussion Thread

lichter

1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts

July 29 2013 02:48 GMT

The LR Crew and I are currently in the process reevaluating our current recommended games polling system while also finding ways to improve it. We have been debating it for a while, whether to keep the traditional Yes/No/If you have time polls or shift towards a 5-star style of polls (some people use different methods already), and I think it is time to get some community feedback about it. After all, the LR thread is a community resource and venue for discussion, and many people use recommended game polls to determine which VODs to watch when they can't see the games live. The recommendation system is a unique service that LR Threads and the LR thread community provide so it is always in our best interest to find ways to improve it. Hopefully you can help us determine how.

TL;DR: Trying to find the best ways to improve recommended game polls

Why We Want A Better Recommendation System
+ Show Spoiler +

Right now, the recommendation system is... ok. It's kinda useful and people support it. However, I think it has shortcomings in accuracy, and I think we can make improvements in that regard.

The current method is the simplest and most direct, and only asks whether the game is recommended or not. However, this style of polling does not determine just how good a game is, only if it is good or not. This means that many games of varying quality get close to the same 'rating' (which is, right now, the percentage of people recommending the game). Many good, enjoyable games get close to 90%-100% recommended. Amazing, exciting, enjoyable games also score in that range.

An example of this is Solar vs Rain on Newkirk and Flash vs Fantasy on Neo Planet S. The former game was an excellent build order counter but a straight forward stomp, while the latter game was exciting, back and forth, had excellent build orders and a revelatory use of widow mines. No argument necessary; Flash vs Fantasy was the superior game. But both games scored similarly based on the Yes/No/If you have time recommendation system. It's a minor gripe, but you can see the inaccuracy from that extreme example. There is little distinction between good and great games.

This does not mean, however, that the Y/N/I style needs to be changed; it also has its advantages which will be discussed below. However as there are alternative methods of polling available, we should consider if any of them are improvements, or if we can draw clues on how to fashion a better system based on a discussion of each system and our own preferences.

There is also an accessory goal of standardizing all the polls. Right now, there are people who use different methods, which isn't a problem since we've yet to determine the polling style that's 'best' or most preferred. However, it is preferred that all LR threads use a standardized style of polling so that
1.) we can create some form of "Recommended Games" thread or liquipedia page, that can list down the most highly rated games by category, matchup, map, tournament, etc. and having a standardized poll will make comparing games easier;
2.) The This Week in SC2 thread will have more accurate recommended games and he won't have a hard time figuring out which games really should be recommended;
and 3.) anyone else interested in using the recommended games in some way (to analyze patterns or games, to create some service, etc) will have an easier time comparing the games.

Another problem that we would like to try and solve (possibly through improving the polls) is the low voter turnout compared to the number of people watching or posting in the thread. The fewer the votes the more inaccurate the poll. Trying to come up with some super cool super accurate poll will be useless if we don't get better voter turnouts, especially for tournaments like WCS AM which bizarrely don't get many votes. Remember, this is a community resource created by the community; you are the resource, and if you don't vote, we have nothing. So if you aren't voting already, please start voting more on recommended game polls. You can also discuss your ideas to improve voter turnout in this thread.

TL;DR: Recommended games polls can be improved. We need to improve voter turnout. Maybe we can bug TL to make recommended game ratings more useful.

Before we get on to discussion, we need to talk about the different polling systems and their known pros and cons.

The Different Polling Systems
There are 4 current polling systems and 1 hypothetical polling system that may be implemented if we bug R1CH or the admins enough. Each system has their advantages and disadvantages, and we are aware of most of them. Unfortunately there is no 'perfect' system that we can find. That's why we are presenting you with the available options so that you can understand them better, and you can explain your preferences better knowing them. Perhaps, some of you may be able to find some form of compromise we haven't thought of or some new hybrid polling method. Also note that if you have ideas on a completely different type of poll that currently can't be implemented on TL, please tell us about it because we might be able to get it to work somehow, or perhaps use it to improve what we have. Now on to the polling systems.

+ Show Spoiler [Yes/No/If you have time] +

1. Yes/No/If you have time
+ Show Spoiler [Example of Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend Fionn vs Polt Game 1?

Yes (5)

45%

No (4)

36%

If you have time (2)

18%

11 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Fionn vs Polt Game 1?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

Explanation: The Y/N/I poll asks whether a game is recommended or not. Yes if the voter thinks the game should be recommended, no if not. If you have time is an option available for games that were of acceptable quality or entertainment value but not necessary viewing.
Raison d'être: This is the simplest and most direct possible poll.
Pros:

Simplest and easiest to vote on; requires the least thought
Encourages voting because it is easy to vote on
Fewer choices = data less spread out, making it less affected by low vote counts or small sample size
The question is less affected by personal bias
Allows poll maker some level of creativity since "If you have time" can be replaced with more insightful options

Cons:

The rating for Good games and Great games is relatively small
The question only asks if the game is good, not how good it is
Many games can be recommended for different reasons; poll does not reveal much
The ratings are inaccurate
The choices are too polarized, while the middle ground can be ambiguous

Personal Opinion: This style is the standard for a reason: it's the simplest and people have gotten used to it. It's the status quo, and so far it's been doing alright. A lot of people prefer it, and we've tried implementing change before, but a lot of people are resistant to change. This is the 'safe' choice despite its deficiencies as an accurate method.

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

2. 5-star
+ Show Spoiler [Example of 5-star] +

Poll: Recommend Wintex vs Bomber Game 1?

★★★★★ (4)

40%

★★ (3)

30%

★★★★ (1)

10%

★★★ (1)

10%

★ (1)

10%

10 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Wintex vs Bomber Game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Explanation: The 5-star system asks voters to 'rate' the game's quality (averaged out through all the different aspects of 'game quality') out of 5 stars. 5 stars for amazing games, 1 star for worst game of all time.
Raison d'être: This style aims to provide more accuracy compared to Y/N/I, as the options can be averaged out to provide a more accurate rating.
Pros:

More choices should mean voter opinions are more accurately presented
Games can be distinguished better due to more distinct scores and are easier to rank and arrange
Votes already present can influence the way we vote (for example, we may try to 'even it out' if we disagree with the results, or just vote with the majority)
Still a relatively simple system that requires only a little more thought than Y/N/I
Vote distribution can be insightful. For example, a lot of 5's and 1's could mean the game was brilliant but painful to watch, or it was some well executed cheese. However this advantage only reveals itself when the data is studied in detail, and gets lost (and even gets problematic) when scores are merely averaged.

Cons:

Games can be recommended for various reasons, and people often vote 5 even when only 1 criteria deserves it, instead of averaging out scores based on criteria
The question is inherently more subjective
People tend to vote in extremes, 5 or 1, and don't often think about choosing a more precise rating, defeating the purpose of this type of poll
Problematic when there is a lack of votes, as the greater number of options in a small sample size increases variance and randomness
The question can still be vague; Does it ask about Game quality? Entertainment value? Level of play? People might answer the poll in different ways, leading to an inaccurate poll

Personal Opinion: 5-star is generally an improvement over Y/N/I, if only we could remove the variance from small sample sizes (vote more!!) and have people think about their ratings more. We are currently trying to use this more to see if the results are really more accurate and informative than Y/N/I.

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

3. Criteria-based
+ Show Spoiler [Example of Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in lichter vs YugiOh Game 1?

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (2)

40%

Sick Micro (1)

20%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (1)

20%

None (1)

20%

Level of Play (0)

0%

Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in lichter vs YugiOh Game 1?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

Explanation: Voters choose the reason/s the game can be recommended or if it isn't recommended at all.
Raison d'être: This type of poll can show us why a game is good or why it should be seen, information that may be relevant to many.
Pros:

People can know why the game is good, and why they should see it
People looking for particular types of games will have an easier time looking for what they want
People who would otherwise rate a game badly can compliment the game for one aspect which it excels at (for example, people who would rate cheeses badly can still approve of the build order)
It becomes possible to rank and compare games based on the different criteria
Far more informative than any other poll type

Cons:

The most complicated type of poll that requires the most thinking, which could dissuade people from thinking about their votes or voting at all, it's confusing as fuck
Difficult to collate the data (since there are overlaps) for use
It's an unfamiliar form of polling that people may not be comfortable with
Results and their implications can be difficult to understand at first glance (due to overlapping options)
Has some of the drawbacks of Y/N/I polls, such as lack of distinction between good and great games (if the games are good/great at all criteria), polarized options, and lack of a 'score'
This type of poll can act as a spoiler. For example, games with low level of play but high entertainment and micro indicate it is likely a cheesey game. Polls should not contain spoilers as much as possible.

Personal Opinion: I believe this is the most informative type of poll, but it is far too complicated for casual viewers. Understanding the results are also difficult with the way polls are made on TL. It's super confusing. Unless checkbox polls become available, this type of poll is unlikely to be practical.

This is what it would look like if we could use hybrid radio/checkbox polls:
[image loading]

So you'd get info such as

85% Yes
       80% Level of Play
       80% Entertainment value
       50% Build Orders
       60% Sick Micro
15 % No

You'd know that 85% of people recommend the game, and a lot of people do so because of the level of play and the game's entertainment value. It's also possible to no click any checkboxes, so it is just as simple as Y/N/I with the added option of recommending something in particular.

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

4. Dual Poll
+ Show Spoiler [Example of Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1?

★★★★★ (3)

60%

★★★ (1)

20%

★ (1)

20%

★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1?

★★★★★ (2)

50%

★★★ (1)

25%

★ (1)

25%

★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of opterown vs MarineKing Game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Explanation: There are two polls, one for Level of Play and one for Entertainment Value. These are the most important criteria when recommending games. Voters rate each criterion out of 5.
Raison d'être: A compromise between 5-star and Criteria-based polls. The two most important criteria are chosen to be rated for greater accuracy.
Pros:

Informative yet simple enough to understand; a good compromise
The two most important criteria are given priority making the poll more accurate
2 scores are given per game, allowing us to differentiate each game more when ranking and rating
People can use each criteria when determining whether they want to see it or not
Vote distribution can be insightful with the aforementioned caveats

Cons:

2 polls take more effort to do and more effort to vote on; may dissuade voters from thinking or voting
Still omits some important criteria
Takes up a lot of space on pages and in the OP
Requires a lot of thinking because 5-star ratings need to be given to each criterion
Problematic when there is a lack of votes

Personal Opinion: This type of poll is a good compromise between the accuracy and simplicity of 5-star polls, and the insightfulness and useability of criteria-based polls. It's difficult to make and vote on, but could be worth it if everyone likes it.

+ Show Spoiler [Blog-star] +

5. Blog-star
+ Show Spoiler [Example of Blog-star] +

Like this. But Nicer?

Explanation: Basically like 5-star polls, but similar to the one we have in the Blogs section. The distribution of votes is invisible.
Raison d'être: Our votes can be affected by the votes already present. This type of poll hides that influence and allows us to form our own opinion.
Pros:

Basically the same list of pros as 5-star
Votes are less influenced by vote distribution
Results are instantly averaged, instantly useful
Clicking on a star is more fun and easier than clicking on "Vote" beside a bunch of stars
Looks more attractive

Cons:

Basically the same list of cons as 5-star, with a smaller influence from vote distribution
Stars are tiny, might be difficult to see
The exact score cannot be seen, and anyone hoping to use exact scores for whatever purpose may have difficult trying to figure out the number (can be solved with an alt of the score)
Currently unavailable, so we don't know how well it would work in practice

Personal Opinion: This is the best looking type of poll, and it has its advantages. Unfortunately we can't do this right now. If we could, and we know it is possible since blogs have it, maybe we can look into it further and apply it to the above types of polls.

Other possible polling systems that I did not consider
1. Must See / Worth Seeing / If you have time / Not Recommended
2. Highly Recommended / Recommended / No opinion / Not Recommended
3. Sheeps [image loading]

Those are the 5 possibilities that we can come up with. They have their advantages and disadvantages, and hopefully it was an insightful read for you that will help you formulate your opinion. If you have additional pros or cons, please explain them and if they are good and distinct enough I will edit them into this list.

Study on Voting Rationale
People vote for different options for different reasons. Some prioritize gameplay. Some prioritize entertainment value. Others recommend games where their favorite player, race, or team wins. It's important we understand what people consider the most important factors in their decisions. Recommending games is a subjective matter, but we often have polls with results of extreme polarity. We would like to remove the useless biases (ex. favorite player vs hated player) from the polls, if at all possible since that is useless information. The following are polls that will ask you to rate the importance of several factors. It will help us identify how to remove undesirable bias and voting anomalies.

Importance of _____ in your voting decisions (5 for greatly positive effect, 1 for greatly negative effect, 3 for no effect):
1. Great Gameplay
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Great Gameplay?

★★★★★ (20)

67%

★★★★ (9)

30%

★★★ (1)

3%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

30 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Great Gameplay?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

2. High Entertainment Value
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of High Entertainment Value?

★★★★★ (26)

84%

★★★★ (3)

10%

★★★ (1)

3%

★★ (1)

3%

★ (0)

0%

31 total votes

Your vote: Effect of High Entertainment Value?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

3. Closeness of Game
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Closeness of Game?

★★★★ (11)

38%

★★★ (9)

31%

★★★★★ (8)

28%

★★ (1)

3%

★ (0)

0%

29 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Closeness of Game?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

4. Interesting Build Orders
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Interesting Build Orders?

★★★ (12)

43%

★★★★ (8)

29%

★★★★★ (3)

11%

★★ (3)

11%

★ (2)

7%

28 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Interesting Build Orders?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

5. Great Multitasking and Micro
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Great Multitasking and Micro?

★★★★★ (16)

59%

★★★★ (8)

30%

★★★ (3)

11%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

27 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Great Multitasking and Micro?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

6. Favorite Player/Team/Race Loses
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Favorite Player/Team/Race Losing?

★ (11)

41%

★★ (7)

26%

★★★ (6)

22%

★★★★ (3)

11%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

27 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Favorite Player/Team/Race Losing?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

7. Hated Player/Team/Race Loses
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Hated Player/Team/Race Losing?

★ (10)

38%

★★★ (7)

27%

★★ (6)

23%

★★★★★ (2)

8%

★★★★ (1)

4%

26 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Hated Player/Team/Race Losing?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

8. Presence of Cheese
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Presence of Cheese?

★ (10)

36%

★★ (9)

32%

★★★ (4)

14%

★★★★ (4)

14%

★★★★★ (1)

4%

28 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Presence of Cheese?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

9. Presence of All-in
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Presence of All-in?

★★★ (10)

38%

★★ (7)

27%

★ (7)

27%

★★★★ (2)

8%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

26 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Presence of All-in?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

10. Presence of Base Trade
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Effect of Presence of Base Trade?

★ (9)

35%

★★★ (8)

31%

★★★★ (4)

15%

★★ (4)

15%

★★★★★ (1)

4%

26 total votes

Your vote: Effect of Presence of Base Trade?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Study on Voting Patterns for Different Types of Game in Different Systems
Now that we know about the different poll styles and understand how people vote, I think it is important that we see how their results look when compared side by side. This can help us see how the community votes on different types of games given different types of polls. We'll be able to see if some polls are more accurate or more informative than others. Unfortunately we can't retroactively change poll types and we have no historical data to look at. So, you have to vote on 45 polls (5x9). :D

Obviously, I won't ask about games that are universally good nor universally bad. We will look at games that often give the strangest or most disparate poll results.

1. High Level, Boring Macro Game
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: Both players play amazing, both players do well, but the games goes long and nothing much happens.
Sample Game: Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind, SPL

+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

Yes (5)

56%

If you have time (3)

33%

No (1)

11%

9 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

★★★★ (4)

57%

★★★ (2)

29%

★★★★★ (1)

14%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

7 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

Level of Play (3)

50%

Level of Play and Build Order (2)

33%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (1)

17%

Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

None (0)

0%

6 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

★★★★★ (3)

50%

★★★★ (3)

50%

★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

6 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

★★★ (2)

33%

★★ (2)

33%

★★★★★ (1)

17%

★★★★ (1)

17%

★ (0)

0%

6 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of Classic vs EffOrt on Whirlwind?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

2. Horribad but Entertaining Game
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: Terribly played game by both players, with horrible strats, execution, and game sense. However the game ends up being hilarious and exciting.
Sample Game: MKP vs Bbyong on Anaconda, Code A Ro24
No free VOD
Basically it's similar to the legendary TheBest vs Min game on Crossfire
+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

Yes (3)

60%

No (1)

20%

If you have time (1)

20%

5 total votes

Your vote: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

★★★★★ (2)

40%

★★★ (2)

40%

★★★★ (1)

20%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Recommend MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

Entertainment Value (2)

50%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (1)

25%

None (1)

25%

Level of Play (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

★★ (3)

75%

★ (1)

25%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★ (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

★★★★★ (3)

75%

★★★★ (1)

25%

★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of MarineKing vs Bbyong on Anaconda?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

3. Excellent Safe Play, Deathball into GG
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: Both players play great, all harassment fails, and then both players move out. Armies clash, gg.
Sample Game: I don't think you need a sample for this lol or if you can help me think of a good one that's loved/hated
+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG?

If you have time (4)

80%

No (1)

20%

Yes (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG

★★★ (4)

57%

★★ (2)

29%

★★★★ (1)

14%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

7 total votes

Your vote: Recommend High Level Deathball Into GG

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in High Level Deathball Into GG?

Level of Play (2)

40%

None (2)

40%

Level of Play and Build Order (1)

20%

Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in High Level Deathball Into GG?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of High Level Deathball Into GG?

★★★ (2)

50%

★★★★ (2)

50%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of High Level Deathball Into GG?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of High Level Deathball Into GG?

★ (3)

60%

★★ (2)

40%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★ (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of High Level Deathball Into GG?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

4. Clever Build Order Stomp
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: One player does a quirky, unconventional build to intentionally snipe the other player. The game is a stomp and hardly contested, and it's essentially a build order win, but the build order is interesting.
Sample Game: Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, SPL

+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct?

Yes (5)

100%

No (0)

0%

If you have time (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct

★★★★ (5)

83%

★★★ (1)

17%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

6 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Pr?

Build Order and Micro (3)

60%

Level of Play and Build Order (2)

40%

Level of Play (0)

0%

Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

None (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Pr?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct?

★★★★ (5)

100%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinc?

★★★★ (3)

60%

★★★ (2)

40%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

5 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of Solar vs Rain on Newkirk Redevelopment Precinc?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

5. Exquisite Cheese
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: Exquisite cheese of the finest quality. Unconventional, well executed... but we all hate cheese right?
Sample Game: HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes, SPL

+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

Yes (3)

100%

No (0)

0%

If you have time (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes

★★★★ (2)

50%

★★★★★ (1)

25%

★ (1)

25%

★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: Recommend HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

Build Order (1)

33%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (1)

33%

All Four Criterion (1)

33%

Level of Play (0)

0%

Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

None (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

★★★ (2)

67%

★★★★ (1)

33%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

★★★★ (2)

67%

★★★ (1)

33%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of HerO vs Soulkey on Akilon Wastes?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

6. High Level Play by One Player into Stomp
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: One player plays extremely well and just stomps his opponent, who plays bad or okay.
Sample Game: JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda, Code A Ro24

+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

Yes (2)

67%

If you have time (1)

33%

No (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda

★★★ (3)

75%

★★★★ (1)

25%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: Recommend JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

Level of Play (2)

67%

All Four Criterion (1)

33%

Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

None (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

★★★★ (2)

67%

★★★★★ (1)

33%

★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

★★★ (3)

100%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of JangBi vs Leenock on Anaconda?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

7. Exciting Game of Throws
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: One or more player tries to throw the game as hard and as far as he can. The other player plays ok, but ends up winning because of the throw.
Sample Game: Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S, WCS EU Premier League Ro32

+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

If you have time (2)

50%

Yes (1)

25%

No (1)

25%

4 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S

★★★ (2)

50%

★★★★★ (1)

25%

★★★★ (1)

25%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

Entertainment Value and Micro (1)

33%

Entertainment Value (1)

33%

None (1)

33%

Level of Play (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

★★ (2)

67%

★★★ (1)

33%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

★★★★★ (1)

33%

★★★★ (1)

33%

★★★ (1)

33%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of Mvp vs Tefel on Neo Planet S?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

8. Injustice Leaguer beats Fan Favorite in a Great Game
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: Sometimes the players you hate beat the players you love, and yet they actually deserved to win.
Sample Game: hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind, OSL Ro32

+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

Yes (1)

50%

No (1)

50%

If you have time (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind

★★★★★ (1)

33%

★★★★ (1)

33%

★★ (1)

33%

★★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Recommend hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

Level of Play and Micro (1)

50%

None (1)

50%

Level of Play (0)

0%

Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

★★★★ (1)

50%

★ (1)

50%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

★★★★ (1)

50%

★★ (1)

50%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of hyvaa vs Leenock on Whirlwind?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

9. When Cheese Goes Sour
+ Show Spoiler +

Description: Sometimes a sure-win cheese still fails, and it is glorious. But also kinda bad.
Sample Game: Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct, OSL Ro16

+ Show Spoiler [Y/N/I] +

Poll: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

If you have time (2)

100%

Yes (0)

0%

No (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

+ Show Spoiler [5-star] +

Poll: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct

★★ (2)

67%

★★★★ (1)

33%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

3 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

+ Show Spoiler [Criteria-based] +

Poll: What would you recommend in Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

Entertainment Value (2)

100%

Level of Play (0)

0%

Build Order (0)

0%

Sick Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play and Entertainment Value (0)

0%

Level of Play and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Build Order (0)

0%

Entertainment Value and Micro (0)

0%

Build Order and Micro (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order (0)

0%

Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro (0)

0%

Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro (0)

0%

All Four Criterion (0)

0%

None (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: What would you recommend in Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

(Vote): Level of Play
(Vote): Entertainment Value
(Vote): Build Order
(Vote): Sick Micro
(Vote): Level of Play and Entertainment Value
(Vote): Level of Play and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Build Order
(Vote): Entertainment Value and Micro
(Vote): Build Order and Micro
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Build Order
(Vote): Level of Play, Entertainment Value, and Micro
(Vote): Level Of Play, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): Entertainment Value, Build Order, and Micro
(Vote): All Four Criterion
(Vote): None

+ Show Spoiler [Dual Poll] +

Poll: Level of Play of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

★★★ (1)

50%

★ (1)

50%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Level of Play of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll: Entertainment Value of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

★★★ (1)

50%

★★★★ (1)

50%

★★★★★ (0)

0%

★★ (0)

0%

★ (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Entertainment Value of Fantasy vs hyvaa on Newkirk Precinct?

(Vote): ★★★★★
(Vote): ★★★★
(Vote): ★★★
(Vote): ★★
(Vote): ★

Poll About Polls
Now that we understand the different polls better and now that you've voted on a few polls comparing results, perhaps you are now ready to form an opinion on which poll style you think is best, or which you prefer. Ideally all of you who are at this point voted in that ridiculous poll marathon so that we can understand their differences, advantages, and disadvantages better. Of course this is the internet so you probably skipped to this part. Fine. Time for the crunch votes.

+ Show Spoiler [Most Effective] +

Poll: Which poll is the most effective?

Yes/No/If you have time (21)

68%

5-Star (8)

26%

Criteria-based (2)

6%

Dual Poll (0)

0%

31 total votes

Your vote: Which poll is the most effective?

(Vote): Yes/No/If you have time
(Vote): 5-Star
(Vote): Criteria-based
(Vote): Dual Poll

+ Show Spoiler [Most Informative] +

Poll: Which poll is the most informative?

Criteria-based (11)

42%

Yes/No/If you have time (9)

35%

Dual Poll (4)

15%

5-Star (2)

8%

26 total votes

Your vote: Which poll is the most informative?

(Vote): Yes/No/If you have time
(Vote): 5-Star
(Vote): Criteria-based
(Vote): Dual Poll

+ Show Spoiler [Most Preferred] +

Poll: Which poll do you prefer the most?

Yes/No/If you have time (19)

54%

5-Star (13)

37%

Dual Poll (2)

6%

Criteria-based (1)

3%

35 total votes

Your vote: Which poll do you prefer the most?

(Vote): Yes/No/If you have time
(Vote): 5-Star
(Vote): Criteria-based
(Vote): Dual Poll

Other Possible Improvements
Now this is a very important section. There are other possible improvements that can be made to the recommendation system aside from just changing the type of polls we use. We can change their appearance, where they are placed, or how the information is gathered. We might even be able to get TL to allow us to use some tools currently not available. The following are the ideas I've gathered so far:

1. Checkboxes for different types of polls, especially criteria polls + Show Spoiler +

2. Liquipedia or database for recommended games once everything is standardized
3. Nicer voting and polling appearance similar to Blog-stars
4. Personal Profile Stats for Recommendations to encourage more voting
5. Incorporate recommended games to tlpd, as a new form of information for games

As mentioned earlier, there is also the problem of low voter turnouts. It's also a problem that concerns us so I may as well try to get you to give me some info and ideas on it.

So yeah, polls again sheesh
+ Show Spoiler [Questions for those who don't vote] +

Poll: I don't vote on polls because...

I find it difficult to vote objectively on the games (3)

50%

I don't have an opinion about the games (2)

33%

I don't see the polls all the time, or forget to vote on them (1)

17%

I don't care for nor use recommended game polls (0)

0%

I do not look at or participate in the LR thread (0)

0%

The polls are too ugly to use (0)

0%

I don't like the style of the poll questions (0)

0%

I didn't know there were polls (0)

0%

No particular reason (0)

0%

6 total votes

Your vote: I don't vote on polls because...

(Vote): I don't care for nor use recommended game polls
(Vote): I find it difficult to vote objectively on the games
(Vote): I don't have an opinion about the games
(Vote): I don't see the polls all the time, or forget to vote on them
(Vote): I do not look at or participate in the LR thread
(Vote): The polls are too ugly to use
(Vote): I don't like the style of the poll questions
(Vote): I didn't know there were polls
(Vote): No particular reason

Poll: I would vote on recommended game polls more if...

I had more use for the polls (2)

50%

The poll appearance is improved (1)

25%

The poll is made more prominent on the stream page (1)

25%

The poll questions are changed (0)

0%

The poll is made more prominent on the LR thread (0)

0%

We could keep track of our voting stats (0)

0%

4 total votes

Your vote: I would vote on recommended game polls more if...

(Vote): The poll questions are changed
(Vote): The poll appearance is improved
(Vote): The poll is made more prominent on the LR thread
(Vote): The poll is made more prominent on the stream page
(Vote): I had more use for the polls
(Vote): We could keep track of our voting stats

And for those who watch the games through TL's livestream pages but do not participate in the LR, would having the recommended game polls embedded below the stream encourage you to vote more?
+ Show Spoiler [Really crummy MS Paint img] +

+ Show Spoiler [Poll] +

Poll: Would this idea encourage you to vote?

Yes (15)

100%

No (0)

0%

15 total votes

Your vote: Would this idea encourage you to vote?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No

Do you have any other ideas to improve voter turnout?

That's all I got so far. Interesting ideas from you guys go below:

Your Opinions
Your opinions go here.

Discussion
Now it's time for discussion. After reading this long ass thread, what do you think? Have I missed anything? Are there other possible poll styles? Did I miss a pro/con/point/idea? Let us discuss this, since the recommended games polls are for you. I will edit good ideas/opinions/etc to the OP.

I am particularly interested in the opinion of people who use the polls often, such as This Week in SC2. Have you noticed any problems, quirks, or interesting anomalies? Do you feel that the polls accurately represent the games?

I also want to hear from people who want to use recommended game polls for whatever reason, such as creating recommended game databases or something. You guys can give us ideas on how to make the information more useable.

Staff input is welcome too, so that we know what we can work with.

That's it. Discuss.

Yours truly,
LR Thread Standardization Committee Chairperson+ Show Spoiler +

I didn't expect this to be this long x_x

Shellshock

United States97276 Posts

July 29 2013 03:15 GMT

I think the whole 5 star poll can be pretty subjective and I've heard people say things like what would you call a 5 star, 4 star, etc.. game? A lot of people take it as 5 is yes, 1 is no, and 3 is kind of like the if you have time/meh option. However, another way you could look at it is like 3/5 seems like a pretty average game. Yeah, I'd recommend that if you wanted to. Then 4 star would be like an above average game while 5 star is great. Or maybe 4 is a great game and 5 is an amazing game! Then another problem is the subjective view of recommending a game. Do you only recommend amazing games? Do you recommend average games? It would vary from person to person. What if you did a kind of hybrid poll where you were like
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

★★★★★ - Amazing game (1)

100%

★★★★ - Good game (0)

0%

★★★ - Average game (0)

0%

★★ - Below average (0)

0%

★ - Bad game (0)

0%

1 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★ - Amazing game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★★ - Average game
(Vote): ★★ - Below average
(Vote): ★ - Bad game

or what if someone else wanted it like
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

★★★★★ - Yes (0)

0%

★★★★ - Good Game (0)

0%

★★★ - meh (0)

0%

★★ - not that good (0)

0%

★ - No (0)

0%

0 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★ - Yes
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★ - meh
(Vote): ★★ - not that good
(Vote): ★ - No

Or you could use some other combination of words. That's just something I threw together. I don't think you're ever going to come up with a perfect polling system because the idea of a recommended game and what each poll means differs from person to person, and it's not like there's some standard that is enforced. I also don't think you're ever going to be able to remove bias from the polls because everyone watches for something different.

Another point you brought up was the number of people voting in polls. I think it's pretty obvious and touched on that the less number of options (aka the less we all have to really thing about it), the more people will actually take the time to click a vote. I think the vote appearing under the stream could be a possible area of exploration, but at the same time, it could annoy people that really don't care.

I'm personally a fan of keeping it a simple as possible and I probably wouldn't desire anything above maybe that 5 star poll with guiding words that I mentioned above. Personally, I think that dual poll would be nice splitting it up by entertainment and level of play because then you can kind of just average it in your head and see if you want to tune in, but even that would probably just be too much to receive an appropriate amount of votes to make a real judgment.

lichter

1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts

July 29 2013 03:27 GMT

On July 29 2013 12:15 Shellshock1122 wrote:
I think the whole 5 star poll can be pretty subjective and I've heard people say things like what would you call a 5 star, 4 star, etc.. game? A lot of people take it as 5 is yes, 1 is no, and 3 is kind of like the if you have time/meh option. However, another way you could look at it is like 3/5 seems like a pretty average game. Yeah, I'd recommend that if you wanted to. Then 4 star would be like an above average game while 5 star is great. Or maybe 4 is a great game and 5 is an amazing game! Then another problem is the subjective view of recommending a game. Do you only recommend amazing games? Do you recommend average games? It would vary from person to person. What if you did a kind of hybrid poll where you were like
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

★★★★★ - Amazing game (1)

100%

★★★★ - Good game (0)

0%

★★★ - Average game (0)

0%

★★ - Below average (0)

0%

★ - Bad game (0)

0%

1 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★ - Amazing game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★★ - Average game
(Vote): ★★ - Below average
(Vote): ★ - Bad game

or what if someone else wanted it like
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

★★★★★ - Yes (0)

0%

★★★★ - Good Game (0)

0%

★★★ - meh (0)

0%

★★ - not that good (0)

0%

★ - No (0)

0%

0 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★ - Yes
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★ - meh
(Vote): ★★ - not that good
(Vote): ★ - No

I actually assumed that this was more or less obvious, thar 5 is a great game, 3 is an average game, and 1 is a horrible game with 4 being good and 2 being only kinda bad. I guess spelling it out for people could be beneficial for 5-star polls, but would it really encourage more people to think about votes rather than just choosing 5 or 1?

I don't see how the poll beneath the stream page could be viewed as annoying. It's an empty space. People who don't care about the poll don't need to vote, and it isn't much of an eyesore. I suppose that section could be 'spoilered' or minimized somehow to hide it, but open by default.

I'm personally a fan of keeping it a simple as possible and I probably wouldn't desire anything above maybe that 5 star poll with guiding words that I mentioned above. Personally, I think that dual poll would be nice splitting it up by entertainment and level of play because then you can kind of just average it in your head and see if you want to tune in, but even that would probably just be too much to receive an appropriate amount of votes to make a real judgment.

I did defend Y/N/I originally, but I still think improvements can be made, even if it isn't a change in poll style. Improvements to get people to vote alone could make a big difference.

I do doubt this thread will help much since it's too long and complicated. I suppose if we don't get much feedback then it will prove that recommended game polls aren't important and we can focus on other LR things to improve.

BisuDagger

Bisutopia19239 Posts

July 29 2013 03:33 GMT

Poll: Do you recommend this thread?

If you have time (35)

61%

Yes (14)

25%

No (8)

14%

57 total votes

Your vote: Do you recommend this thread?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time

Wow that OP is amazing. I feel like while other options are great, but LR-ing does take time even with the help of OP makers. There for I feel the poll format above is the best one. However if we want to raise the standards of OP makers that's fine. But I'm definitely eager to hear counter arguments from everyone.

bo1b

Australia12814 Posts

July 29 2013 03:37 GMT

If it's possible, a combination of the 5 star and blog style voting systems is best. For example, you vote with the five star system, and the results are shown as the blog style averaging. But, you already knew that :p

Shellshock

United States97276 Posts

July 29 2013 03:41 GMT

On July 29 2013 12:27 lichter wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah I thought it was a pretty standard way to look at it, but apparently not. I did a day of WCS America with the star polling system instead of the yes/no/iyht style and some people were questioning about what each level of the stars really meant

lichter

1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts

July 29 2013 04:35 GMT

On July 29 2013 12:33 BisuDagger wrote:
Wow that OP is amazing. I feel like while other options are great, but LR-ing does take time even with the help of OP makers. There for I feel the poll format above is the best one. However if we want to raise the standards of OP makers that's fine. But I'm definitely eager to hear counter arguments from everyone.

It's actually not hard to make polls because you can just press back and change the question for each game. That's what I do. You don't need to make each poll from scratch.

On July 29 2013 12:37 bo1b wrote:
If it's possible, a combination of the 5 star and blog style voting systems is best. For example, you vote with the five star system, and the results are shown as the blog style averaging. But, you already knew that :p

I think this is an attractive option, yes, but it does not solve how people seem to vote in 5-star polls. As Shellbot mentioned, a lot of people just vote in extremes and don't really think about what their votes mean as it's far more subjective a question. It's a good poll system assuming everyone thinks about their votes and we receive a good number of votes, but taking into consideration that people just vote whatevs and not a lot of people vote, is it the [i]most effective type of poll?

On July 29 2013 12:41 Shellshock1122 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On July 29 2013 12:27 lichter wrote:

Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

★★★★★ - Amazing game (1)

100%

★★★★ - Good game (0)

0%

★★★ - Average game (0)

0%

★★ - Below average (0)

0%

★ - Bad game (0)

0%

1 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★ - Amazing game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★★ - Average game
(Vote): ★★ - Below average
(Vote): ★ - Bad game

or what if someone else wanted it like
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

★★★★★ - Yes (0)

0%

★★★★ - Good Game (0)

0%

★★★ - meh (0)

0%

★★ - not that good (0)

0%

★ - No (0)

0%

0 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Waxangel vs. Elfi game 1?

(Vote): ★★★★★ - Yes
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★ - meh
(Vote): ★★ - not that good
(Vote): ★ - No

At first I thought people would like the change too, but the preferences seem to be split. Some people like Y/N/I and some people like 5-star. I'd like to hear their opinions here if they can get past that long ass OP T_T[/s]

Arceus

Vietnam8333 Posts

July 29 2013 04:44 GMT

Star-system: the same as YNI with 5* = Yes, 1/2*= No, 2/3/4= If you have time, albeit way more vague and random
Dual-Poll: too long. I dont want to be confused with 2 kinds of polls, people dont wanna click that many
Blog star: the average form of star-system with the same interpretation, even more vague with decimals
Personally, when seeking recommendations, I dont want to read 15 lines or try to figure how good is a 4* game really is

My opinion: OP better watches the games and conduct a poll of what he/people might think about the game. However, it's not needed to be as complex/tldr as the suggested criteria-based, 4 options top. Something like this will do:

Poll: OP?

lots of blah, stick with YNI (6)

50%

Great study & initiatives. Read it! (4)

33%

tldr (2)

17%

Cool ideas. will check later (0)

0%

12 total votes

Your vote: OP?

(Vote): Great study & initiatives. Read it!
(Vote): Cool ideas. will check later
(Vote): lots of blah, stick with YNI
(Vote): tldr

Other examples with a tbsp of excitement/bias
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Game 1?

GAWD YES! (107)

81%

If you have time -_- (14)

11%

No, I dun like comeback (11)

8%

132 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Game 1?

(Vote): GAWD YES!
(Vote): No, I dun like comeback
(Vote): If you have time -_-

Poll: Recommend Game 5?

Me like allin (12)

55%

ArNo (9)

41%

If you have time (1)

5%

22 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Game 5?

(Vote): Me like allin
(Vote): ArNo
(Vote): If you have time

Conclusion: Aside from the clearest choice of YNI, I dont want everything to be so uniformly done. Topic-maker should put effort and attention to their OP and the games.

lichter

1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts

July 29 2013 05:17 GMT

On July 29 2013 13:44 Arceus wrote:
Star-system: the same as YNI with 5* = Yes, 1/2*= No, 2/3/4= If you have time, albeit way more vague and random
Dual-Poll: too long. I dont want to be confused with 2 kinds of polls, people dont wanna click that many
Blog star: the average form of star-system with the same interpretation, even more vague with decimals
Personally, when seeking recommendations, I dont want to read 15 lines or try to figure how good is a 4* game really is

My opinion: OP better watches the games and conduct a poll of what he/people might think about the game. However, it's not needed to be as complex/tldr as the suggested criteria-based, 4 options top. Something like this will do:

Poll: OP?

lots of blah, stick with YNI (6)

50%

Great study & initiatives. Read it! (4)

33%

tldr (2)

17%

Cool ideas. will check later (0)

0%

12 total votes

Your vote: OP?

(Vote): Great study & initiatives. Read it!
(Vote): Cool ideas. will check later
(Vote): lots of blah, stick with YNI
(Vote): tldr

Other examples with a tbsp of excitement/bias
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Game 1?

GAWD YES! (107)

81%

If you have time -_- (14)

11%

No, I dun like comeback (11)

8%

132 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Game 1?

(Vote): GAWD YES!
(Vote): No, I dun like comeback
(Vote): If you have time -_-

Poll: Recommend Game 5?

Me like allin (12)

55%

ArNo (9)

41%

If you have time (1)

5%

22 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Game 5?

(Vote): Me like allin
(Vote): ArNo
(Vote): If you have time

Conclusion: Aside from the clearest choice of YNI, I dont want everything to be so uniformly done. Topic-maker should put effort and attention to their OP and the games.

The criteria based poll only looks ridiculous since we don't have checkbox polls. Assuming we could have checkbox polls, it's not any more complicated than Y/N/I, and much more informative. That's why I still presented it even though it looks crazy with TL's poll.

The big problem with excitement/bias polls is that they are spoilers. Yes it is fun to vote on them and fun to make them, but the people who will use the recommended game poll may find spoilers in them. I have tried them on occasion and I did receive such complaints. They are a fun way to do the polls but they defeat their purpose. An OP must be mindful of how he makes such polls to ensure there are no spoilers.

The reason I prefer the polls to be uniformly done is so that TWiSC2's recommended games will have consistency, and that somewhere down the line maybe we can have a database of recommended games--an incredibly useful utility. If the polls aren't standard, there's no way to make one.

juicyjames

United States3815 Posts

July 29 2013 05:37 GMT

#10

On July 29 2013 11:48 lichter wrote:
Why We Want A Better Recommendation System
2.) The This Week in SC2 thread will have more accurate recommended games and he won't have a hard time figuring out which games really should be recommended;

On July 29 2013 14:17 lichter wrote:
The reason I prefer the polls to be uniformly done is so that TWiSC2's recommended games will have consistency, and that somewhere down the line maybe we can have a database of recommended games--an incredibly useful utility. If the polls aren't standard, there's no way to make one.

As the person who does This Week in Starcraft 2, I appreciate your mentioning of my thread(s) when doing this. I rely almost exclusively on recommended game polls to determine which matches get listed. With the old Y/N/I system I had two requirements:

1) 80%+ Recommended
2) 10+ People Voted Yes

See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422910

I reasoned that any match worth watching would be able to surpass both requirements. If polls are not available I will either post in the thread asking if anyone recommended any games, or see if anyone made Reddit threads about any specific.

Now, I have no problems with changing the recommended games polls. All I ask is that if something new gets decided upon, everyone also decides on what threshold needs to be broken in order to be included in This Week in Starcraft 2.

For example, in a criteria-based poll, what exactly will determine if its a good enough game to be recommended? This is not a criticism of this particular poll, just something for everyone to consider once you decide which poll to use.

lichter

1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts

July 29 2013 05:51 GMT

#11

On July 29 2013 14:37 juicyjames wrote:

Show nested quote +

I was going to name you specifically but wasn't sure since some of the threads were being made by shiroiusagi :D

I have a few more questions for you: do you think that the results you get from looking at recommended game polls are accurate? Do the best games get the best ratings? Are the best games and merely good games graded differently? Do duds get into the list because of their ratings? Do some good, should be recommended games miss out because their rating isn't high enough?

The reason I started questioning the accuracy of the poll was really because of Solar vs Rain compared to Flash vs Fantasy. I love both games but don't believe they are equal. I'm also pretty anal about ratings being accurate lol

In the criteria based poll, ideally we need to get R1CH to give us checkbox polls. A radio button for Yes/No, then a checkbox to recommend something in particular.

So you'd get info such as

85% Yes
       80% Level of Play
       80% Entertainment value
       50% Build Orders
       60% Sick Micro
15 % No

So the game is 85% recommended, with 80% recommending it because of level of play and entertainment value.

Of course this is dependent on being able to make hybrid radio/checkbox polls T_T

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

July 29 2013 06:33 GMT

#12

I like the 5star option. but Im not sure it would really be informative with a lot of hype after the game.
the recommended poll is probably quite Ok as well.
criteria is weird imo.

lichter

1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts

July 29 2013 06:40 GMT

#13

On July 29 2013 15:33 Big J wrote:
I like the 5star option. but Im not sure it would really be informative with a lot of hype after the game.
the recommended poll is probably quite Ok as well.
criteria is weird imo.

Criteria feels weird because we don't have checkboxes. I have edited its description so that it has a picture of the proposed poll with checkboxes, as well as the outputted information.

opterown

Australia54784 Posts

July 29 2013 13:04 GMT

#14

On July 29 2013 13:44 Arceus wrote:
Other examples with a tbsp of excitement/bias
+ Show Spoiler +

Poll: Recommend Game 1?

GAWD YES! (107)

81%

If you have time -_- (14)

11%

No, I dun like comeback (11)

8%

132 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Game 1?

(Vote): GAWD YES!
(Vote): No, I dun like comeback
(Vote): If you have time -_-

Poll: Recommend Game 5?

Me like allin (12)

55%

ArNo (9)

41%

If you have time (1)

5%

22 total votes

Your vote: Recommend Game 5?

(Vote): Me like allin
(Vote): ArNo
(Vote): If you have time

i really dislike these things that also spoil the games

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

July 29 2013 13:08 GMT

#15

I have to say I wouldn't mind a 5 star system for sets of matches(aka, should you watch this whole series) and just keep the current polling system for specific games in a spoilers section. It provides the most information possible and lets the read choose how deep they want to go before they watch the series.

Melliflue

United Kingdom1389 Posts

July 29 2013 13:54 GMT

#16

Wasn't the MKP vs Bbyong (one of the example games) the first game of their Code A series? In which case there is a free vod on GOMTV. Sorry if I got this wrong.

I like a simple system of how much people recommend a game without the additional information. The problem for me is when I expect a game to be of super high quality then it kind of takes away from the enjoyment. Likewise if I know the game is hilariously bad beforehand, or will be super close. I much prefer not knowing what makes a game good before going in. But this is clearly a personal preference.

I do think hiding the results would help prevent votes being influenced by how other's have already voted. But this would require having a way to vote in a poll and a separate way to view the results of the poll because people who are looking for recommended games can't vote in a poll for a game they haven't seen (so the results can't just be hidden until a vote is cast).

The blog style might help there but I like to see the distribution of votes and not just the average, particularly if I know who is playing. A high number of 1s and 5s may mean a lot of influence by fanboys and anti-fans, but it would give the same average as a mediocre game.

(This is coming from someone who more often looks at the results of polls than votes in polls, but this is because I rarely have time to watch the games live (eg Code S is during work time for me)).

Pandemona

Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts

July 29 2013 13:59 GMT

#17

Good old fashioned;
(When i did the LRs i used this)

Poll: Recommended Set 1

Bad Game (2)

100%

Good Game (0)

0%

Meh Game (0)

0%

2 total votes

Your vote: Recommended Set 1

(Vote): Good Game
(Vote): Meh Game
(Vote): Bad Game

Though this was what was needed.

EDIT: Yeah like Jakethesnake says, you have got to be careful with how the polls are worded due to the fact of spoilers for people. Pretty much you know and see when you watch the games live and see people voting that (for example) if Flash is playing and he wins the game is pretty much going to be 70% + Yes/Absolutely/Great/Perfect whatever title. So if there is away to keep the wording to a minimum and more based on gameplay voting it would be better.

jakethesnake

Canada4948 Posts

July 29 2013 14:12 GMT

#18

One of the reasons I dislike a 5-star voting system is that it can become biased which is why gomtv put a spoiler on their website. Basically it was easy to tell from the voting if a big fan favourite won or lost. A score of 6/10 with mvp playing? He must have lost (and the score doesn't really reflect how great the games are). Now, I'm sure that TL would be better than the general gomtv audience - I mean, just look at the gomtv forums! That said, the Y/N/I system can have the same bias so that probably isn't a new problem. Just something to think about and why I would probably be biased to an overall score (ala blogs 5-star system) over a distribution. It doesn't solve that problem but it would hide the fact that a game with a fan favourite might have a pile of 1-stars and a pile of 5 stars. At the same time, if you are deciding based on a poll whether or not you are going to watch a game, having it spoiled isn't the biggest deal (which wasn't the case for the GOM system since the voting appeared on the VOD page). So I think the reasons I dislike the 5-point system are pretty irrelevant.

I do dislike the criteria based voting. I know it gives more information, but I like to watch games with as little info as possible. The Y/N/I does spoil a little bit about the game, but it doesn't bias my watching all that much. Knowing that a game was recommended because of build order and sick micro but not level of play can let me know that I'm in for a cheesy type game, where just knowing that it is recommended only lets me know that it is good. So I don't particularly like the criteria based system and if it was implemented I probably would use the recommended polls less.

The dual poll system I think just lacks the simplicity to use (both for the voter and the person deciding to use the info), so for that reason I think it is my least favourite.

I think the best (from my perspective) would be the hidden-distribution 5-star system. I know that that is the most difficult to do, so I'll put a vote in for second as probably the 5-point voting system. Basically that just bumps us from a 3-point scale to a 5-point. It has its drawbacks which I am aware of and its biases but should be a slight improvement over the current system. With the amount of content coming out from WCS alone, having a good recommendation system is important. I do use the current polls a lot and would love for them to be improved. I just want them to be easy to use and provide a quick-and-dirty way to judge what extra content I am going to watch.

lichter

1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts

July 29 2013 14:22 GMT

#19

On July 29 2013 22:54 Melliflue wrote:
Wasn't the MKP vs Bbyong (one of the example games) the first game of their Code A series? In which case there is a free vod on GOMTV. Sorry if I got this wrong.

I like a simple system of how much people recommend a game without the additional information. The problem for me is when I expect a game to be of super high quality then it kind of takes away from the enjoyment. Likewise if I know the game is hilariously bad beforehand, or will be super close. I much prefer not knowing what makes a game good before going in. But this is clearly a personal preference.

I do think hiding the results would help prevent votes being influenced by how other's have already voted. But this would require having a way to vote in a poll and a separate way to view the results of the poll because people who are looking for recommended games can't vote in a poll for a game they haven't seen (so the results can't just be hidden until a vote is cast).

The blog style might help there but I like to see the distribution of votes and not just the average, particularly if I know who is playing. A high number of 1s and 5s may mean a lot of influence by fanboys and anti-fans, but it would give the same average as a mediocre game.

(This is coming from someone who more often looks at the results of polls than votes in polls, but this is because I rarely have time to watch the games live (eg Code S is during work time for me)).

The first game of MKP vs Bbyong was on Whirlwind, and that was the terrible game where + Show Spoiler +

MKP proxies everything at the Xel'naga, Bbyong scouts it immediately, yet somehow loses

. It was a terrible though funny game. The game I am talking about was the one on Anaconda which is slightly better, but incredibly tense and + Show Spoiler +

came down to a base trade, single digit supplies, and tiny margins of error which made it exciting

.

Thanks for the input. We are most interested in the input of those who use the recommended game polls the most. I agree that we should remove the possibility of spoilers, so I see your point about more 'informative' polls also acting as spoilers. I will add that to their cons.

On July 29 2013 23:12 jakethesnake wrote:
One of the reasons I dislike a 5-star voting system is that it can become biased which is why gomtv put a spoiler on their website. Basically it was easy to tell from the voting if a big fan favourite won or lost. A score of 6/10 with mvp playing? He must have lost (and the score doesn't really reflect how great the games are). Now, I'm sure that TL would be better than the general gomtv audience - I mean, just look at the gomtv forums! That said, the Y/N/I system can have the same bias so that probably isn't a new problem. Just something to think about and why I would probably be biased to an overall score (ala blogs 5-star system) over a distribution. It doesn't solve that problem but it would hide the fact that a game with a fan favourite might have a pile of 1-stars and a pile of 5 stars. At the same time, if you are deciding based on a poll whether or not you are going to watch a game, having it spoiled isn't the biggest deal (which wasn't the case for the GOM system since the voting appeared on the VOD page). So I think the reasons I dislike the 5-point system are pretty irrelevant.

I do dislike the criteria based voting. I know it gives more information, but I like to watch games with as little info as possible. The Y/N/I does spoil a little bit about the game, but it doesn't bias my watching all that much. Knowing that a game was recommended because of build order and sick micro but not level of play can let me know that I'm in for a cheesy type game, where just knowing that it is recommended only lets me know that it is good. So I don't particularly like the criteria based system and if it was implemented I probably would use the recommended polls less.

The dual poll system I think just lacks the simplicity to use (both for the voter and the person deciding to use the info), so for that reason I think it is my least favourite.

I think the best (from my perspective) would be the hidden-distribution 5-star system. I know that that is the most difficult to do, so I'll put a vote in for second as probably the 5-point voting system. Basically that just bumps us from a 3-point scale to a 5-point. It has its drawbacks which I am aware of and its biases but should be a slight improvement over the current system. With the amount of content coming out from WCS alone, having a good recommendation system is important. I do use the current polls a lot and would love for them to be improved. I just want them to be easy to use and provide a quick-and-dirty way to judge what extra content I am going to watch.

Thanks for the input. I think everyone agrees that a hidden distribution poll similar to the blog-stars poll is an improvement over a basic 5-star poll. I guess if everyone rallies behind it we can pester R1CH to make it a possibility :D

juicyjames

United States3815 Posts

July 29 2013 14:22 GMT

#20

On July 29 2013 14:51 lichter wrote:

Show nested quote +

They are accurate enough for most people to use as an at a glance tool to see whether or not they should go back to watch VODs, but they are not without their flaws.

The greatest indicator of a "must see" game for me is probably when it has 100+ people voting Yes, but the problem is any match that has that many votes will almost never be 100% recommended. The 100% recommended games are often matches with barely 10 votes.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422034

So in an absolute sense, no, the best games do not get the best ratings. The fewer people that vote, the more inaccurate the ratings will be. 1-3 people voting No or If you have time can dramatically drag down a low-voted game, or, conversely, give you 100% recommended games that really are not better than games where 98% of like 120+ people voted yes.

This is why I include both percents and absolute numbers. I agree, it is hard to separate "the best" vs "good" games. If I had to separate them currently I would go back to what I said and say anything with 100+ people voting Yes would be "the best."

Do good games not make the list? Yes. If a tournament is on at a bad time (Code A), has a lot of unknowns in it (Code A), or has a dead LR (WCS AM, which can have anywhere from 15k-25k viewers but a largely inactive LR) there will be a lot of games that may not even have 10 votes total.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=420595
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=421947

However, most of the time good games will cause people to vote on the polls (I hope?). Polt vs TaeJa is a good example of this.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422354

Do duds make it no the list? Sure, but I would wager anyone actually looking at recommended game polls probably are only going to watch certain matchups or certain pros to begin with. There are way too many choices for people to simply watch random games recommended games.

Honestly, WCS created so much SC2 content I actually made my requirements for being listed as a recommended game slightly more strict. I used to list 75%+, 10+ recommended, but now bumped it up to 80%+, 10+ recommended. I still toy with the idea of even going up to 80%+, 15+, but it would probably destroy WCS AM.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422034

So, in the end, yes it would be nice if there were a better system of recommended games to clearly separate "must watch" games from merely "good" games. At the very least maybe somehow differentiate between games recommended as a spectator and games recommended as a player of X or Y race.

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